Question reformed theology?

[GodsGrace]

• Constantine was the first Pontifex Maximus (Pope) of the Holy Roman Empire. The very reasons why the Pope today holds the title Pontifex Maximus and why he is called Pope and he will rule the Holy One World Empire from Jerusalem.

What do you think you’re doing when you quote what you believe is history?

I did. There’s the catholic version which changed it including their bible until it was discovered.

But if you BELIEVE that the New Testament church called Peter “the Pope” please provide scriptures to that effect.

Dorothy,
As usual you did not understand what I stated.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to correct everything wrong that you understand.

Did you happen to see post 17?
That will have some answers for you.

It seems to me that the dislike for the CC is so great, that those reading along
reply to what they THINK I said, instead of what I said.

Unfortunate that Christian brothers cannot love each other.
John 13:35
35"Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”

 

[Cooper]

The keys are with Jesus. He has the keys to heaven and hell (Revelation 1:18). If you remember Jesus said to Peter, upon THIS Rock I will build MY church. Jesus is the rock.
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GOD IS THE ROCK OF OUR SALVATION
The Old Testament people knew God, not a human being, is their rock.

Deu_32:4 God is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. (Jesus is God with us.)

Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God, which made him and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Deu_32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast has forgotten God that formed thee.

1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. (Jesus is our Saviour.)

2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? And who is a rock, save our God?

2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock, and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

2 Sam 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Here we see God in heaven and God on earth.

Psa_18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psa_18:31 For who is God save the LORD? Or who is a rock save our God?

Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing before You, O YAHWEH, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psa_28:1 A Psalm of David. Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.

Psa_62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

Psa_62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Psa 78:35 And they remembered God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Psa 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psa_94:22 But the LORD is my defence, and my God is the rock of my refuge.

1Corithians_10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

End of part one.

 

[Cooper]

Part two

THE KEYS
The ancient Hebrews knew God was their Rock and Redeemer from scriptures such as Psa 19:14 which says, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing before You, O YAHWEH, my Rock and my Redeemer.” This is a central message in the Hebrew Bible and Peter being Jewish and in the presence of God, straightaway answered without hesitation and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” To which Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Mat 16:17-19. Peter held the keys while he lived.

The Bible speaks of Christ the Rock in 1Cor 10:4 and if we trace the use of the word rock through Hebrew Scriptures, we find that it is never used of man, but always of God. So here at Caesarea Philippi, it is not upon Peter that the Church is built, he is not the rock which has always been a symbol of deity. The rock on which the church of Christ was built needed to be God and so the Church of Jesus Christ was built on the rock Christ Jesus himself who is God with us.

The key to heaven and hell was first held by King David and then by Shebna. The Lord then gave the key of heaven and hell to Eliakim son of Hilkiah, with the Redeemer saying, “No one will be able to unlock what he locks, and no one will be able to lock what he unlocks.” (Isa 22:15-22)

After the resurrection, Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples she had seen the Lord and told them what he had said to her. Then the same day at eventide, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (20) And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord. (21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so, send I you. (22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith to all of them, NOT ONLY TO PETER, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (John 20:18-23)

The ultimate key holder is, of course, Jesus the Lord who has all authority both in heaven and on earth, giving and taking away the key as he will. In Revelation 1:8 Jesus says,” I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” In Revelation 3:7, Jesus speaking of himself says the keys belong to “he that is holy, he that is true hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

End of part two.

 

[Cooper]

Part Three

The Christian Church is the great body of believers of whom Peter and the apostles were the first, with Christ the chief cornerstone

Paul writing to the Ephesians told them they are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, (Psalm 118:22 and Isa 28:16) in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him, you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Eph 2:20-22 ESV)

JESUS IS THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE
Peter, standing before the Jewish Council, full of the Holy Spirit, replied, “Leaders of the people and elders: if we are being questioned today about the good deed done to the lame man and how he was healed, then you should all know, and all the people of Israel should know, that this man stands here before you completely well through the power of the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth — whom you crucified and whom God raised from death. Jesus is the one of whom the scripture says in (Psalm 118:22) ‘The stone that you the builders despised turned out to be the most important of all.’ Salvation is found in and through him alone; in all the world there is no one else whom God has given who can save us.” Act 4:8-12 GNB

Peter continues to confirm Jesus of Nazareth is the living stone rejected by the builders when he writes in 1Pe 2:1-8

Rid yourselves then of all evil, no more lying or hypocrisy or jealousy or insulting language. Be like newborn babies, always thirsty for the pure spiritual milk, so that by drinking it you may grow up and be saved. As the scripture says, “You have found out for yourselves how kind the Lord is.” Come to the Lord, the living stone rejected by people as worthless but chosen by God as valuable. Come as living stones and let yourselves be used in building the spiritual temple, where you will serve as holy priests to offer spiritual and acceptable sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ. For the scripture says, “I chose a valuable stone, which I am placing as the cornerstone in Zion; and whoever believes in him will never be disappointed.” This stone is of great value for you that believe; but for those who do not believe: “The stone which the builders rejected as worthless turned out to be the most important of all.” And another scripture says, “This is the stone that will make people stumble, the rock that will make them fall.” They stumbled because they did not believe in the word; such was God’s will for them. (GNB)

Jesus the Living Stone, has the keys to heaven and hell ready for the Judgement Day.
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[Jethro Bodine]

Which church WAS the first church according to you?

The one depicted in the pages of our Bibles. That hasn't existed for almost 2000 years IMO. No church since has completely and accurately represented the church of the original Apostles. As gentiles took offices of leadership in the church with their stained and corrupted pagan views and beliefs it progressively moved farther and farther away from the original church of the Apostles. The corruption of the church began right on the heels of the original Apostles. I base that on Acts 20:29-30. That's how I see and understand the history of the church. I've had the privilege of being in an 'open' church and it convinced me that we have not had the real church of the Apostles for almost as long as the Apostles have been absent from the church.

Acts 20:29-30
29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.

 

[GodsGrace]

The one depicted in the pages of our Bibles. That hasn't existed for almost 2000 years IMO. No church since has completely and accurately represented the church of the original Apostles. As gentiles took offices of leadership in the church with their stained and corrupted pagan views and beliefs it progressively moved farther and farther away from the original church of the Apostles. The corruption of the church began right on the heels of the original Apostles. I base that on Acts 20:29-30. That's how I see and understand the history of the church. I've had the privilege of being in an 'open' church and it convinced me that we have not had the real church of the Apostles for almost as long as the Apostles have been absent from the church.

Acts 20:29-30
29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.

History is history.
The North won the war.
Maybe someone would have preferred that the South won, but it didn't.

You're talking about what you would have LIKED the church to be.
I'm talking about the history of the church.
I don't quite understand how one debates history.

Which church of the original Apostles?
Did they die?
Did the church die?
Is the only true church the one that existed between 30AD and 70AD?

I agree with you that I'd like a church that resembles the one at the beginning,
but we're not getting it.

As to wolves, you can thank the CC that the wolves did not destroy the early church.
Do we understand how many heresies were in circulation and that it was the CC that kept them out?

What do we think the councils were for?
Why were they important?
The councils and the creeds enforced what the church believed, what Jesus taught.
They made sense of some things that man could not quite understand...
the Trinity would be one, the hypostatic union would be another.

Think what would have happened if the church just thew up its arms and gave up.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Peter is the rock.
Or what Jesus said makes absolutely no sense.
Even Protestant scholars admit to this.

The Keys represent authority.
Jesus gave the keys to Peter.

Jesus gave Simon the name Cephus.
Cephus means rock.
And upon this rock I will build my church.

Why call someone a rock....
and say UPON THIS ROCK I will build my church?

No one who heard or recorded those words acted as though he personally meant the man Peter. Nothing was built on the man Peter. He wasn’t even the church leader. I almost laughed when a Pope in 1965 declared bones to be Peter’s like as if he would know.

If anything a case could be made for the church to be built on Paul. He wrote the bulk of the NT upon which our faith is built. Doesn’t anyone think about who claims what in history and how they change it to their benefit? Conflict of Interest big time.

The church is built on Jesus being the Christ, not Peter. This is so obvious it’s hard to believe people swallow the catholic version.

 

[GodsGrace]

No one who heard or recorded those words acted as though he personally meant the man Peter. Nothing was built on the man Peter. He wasn’t even the church leader. I almost laughed when a Pope in 1965 declared bones to be Peter’s like as if he would know.

If anything a case could be made for the church to be built on Paul. He wrote the bulk of the NT upon which our faith is built. Doesn’t anyone think about who claims what in history and how they change it to their benefit? Conflict of Interest big time.

The church is built on Jesus being the Christ, not Peter. This is so obvious it’s hard to believe people swallow the catholic version.

The Church is built on Jesus.
The church, according to Jesus, was going to be built on Peter because Jesus gave him the name of rock, and the keys.
Matthew 13

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Pentarchy, after the Greek for “five leaders,” refers to the five patriarchates in the early church. Originally, these patriarchates were located in important Roman cities that were significant for Christians for several reasons. First, the Christian community in each city was founded by one of the Twelve Apostles. Second, the cities contained large Christian communities led by a prominent bishop. The five patriarchates and their founders are: Rome, founded by Peter; Constantinople, founded by Andrew; Alexandria, founded by Mark; Antioch, founded by Peter; and Jerusalem, founded by James.

Thank you!

 

[jasonc]

The one depicted in the pages of our Bibles. That hasn't existed for almost 2000 years IMO. No church since has completely and accurately represented the church of the original Apostles. As gentiles took offices of leadership in the church with their stained and corrupted pagan views and beliefs it progressively moved farther and farther away from the original church of the Apostles. The corruption of the church began right on the heels of the original Apostles. I base that on Acts 20:29-30. That's how I see and understand the history of the church. I've had the privilege of being in an 'open' church and it convinced me that we have not had the real church of the Apostles for almost as long as the Apostles have been absent from the church.

Acts 20:29-30
29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.

Plymouth brethren ?

 

[jasonc]

All the more why my pastor should mention reformation day and why .

I do think we have went to far .I'm hardly low church ,but neither am I high church like the Catholics.

Some of their traditions are too far .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Church is built on Jesus.
The church, according to Jesus, was going to be built on Peter because Jesus gave him the name of rock, and the keys.
Matthew 13

I repeat, not a single person who heard those words of Jesus thought they meant what you think they do, not even Peter. Now you can deny the entire history of the first church recorded in the New Testament in favor of a very biased middle ages position but that is what you are doing. The church is built on Jesus being the Christ. This truth is foundational. A foundation is the part the edifice is built upon.

I bet if I asked exactly HOW the church was built in the man Peter, you couldn’t give an example outside of the Catholic desire to claim he was the first Pope.

 

[Cooper]

The Church is built on Jesus.
The church, according to Jesus, was going to be built on Peter because Jesus gave him the name of rock, and the keys.
Matthew 13

When Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church" he was speaking of himself. The church of God cannot be built on any less foundation than God alone,
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church" he was speaking of himself. The church of God cannot be built on any less foundation than God alone,
.

One has to ask oneself how anyone can possibly believe the church is built on Peter. Next time I discuss this with a Catholic I’m going to ask for particulars in the New Testament that show how this was carried out. I cannot even imagine it. Most followings built on one charismatic man are cults. They really are built on him or her.

 

[Cooper]

One has to ask oneself how anyone can possibly believe the church is built on Peter. Next time I discuss this with a Catholic I’m going to ask for particulars in the New Testament that show how this was carried out. I cannot even imagine it. Most followings built on one charismatic man are cults. They really are built on him or her.

On judgement day the wicked will hear the words "depart from me for I never knew you." Whoever speaks those words has the keys to heaven and hell. I wonder what the persons name is who will be saying that?
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[Dorothy Mae]

On judgement day the wicked will hear the words "depart from me for I never knew you." Whoever speaks those words has the keys to heaven and hell. I wonder what the persons name is who will be saying that?
.

Excellent response!! I’m going to remember that one. I learned something very valuable from you today!! My warmest thank you for giving me some solid intellectual food!

 

[Cooper]

On judgement day the wicked will hear the words "depart from me for I never knew you." Whoever speaks those words has the keys to heaven and hell. I wonder what the persons name is who will be saying that?
.

The answer can be found in Matthew 7:21-23​

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

Following on from that we have:
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Also Matthew 7:24-27 KJV
(24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

And Acts 4:10-12 KJV
(10) Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Please do not be like the foolish man who built his house on shifting sand, but instead, build your house on the rock Christ Jesus.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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[GodsGrace]

Thank you!

You're welcome!

Anything I print here can be confirmed.
It's so easy .

 

[Cooper]

Thirty minutes edit time is not long enough.
Remember Peter? This is what he wrote about the Living Stone in 1PETER 2.

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
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[GodsGrace]

I repeat, not a single person who heard those words of Jesus thought they meant what you think they do, not even Peter. Now you can deny the entire history of the first church recorded in the New Testament in favor of a very biased middle ages position but that is what you are doing. The church is built on Jesus being the Christ. This truth is foundational. A foundation is the part the edifice is built upon.

I bet if I asked exactly HOW the church was built in the man Peter, you couldn’t give an example outside of the Catholic desire to claim he was the first Pope.

Look up what scholars believe.
What I believe is irrelevant.

And, as usual, the above does not reflect what I've stated.

I find it very dangerous to speak to you since you constantly put words in my mouth.