Bible Study Question

[younglite]

will the other side is i am a PK i know about paying the bills of a church building..

Hello Reba. I am a pastor of 30+ years. I have spent most of those years as a bi-vocational pastor, which means I held a "secular" job while being a pastor. Paul chose not to be a burden to the church, so he made tents. At no point do we see in Scripture where the apostles took any money laid at their feet to pay overhead costs. First of all, people gave generously, not just their minimal tithe. Secondly, the money was always given to the poor. The early church fathers taught that, though the churches may bless ministers, they (the ministers) should never ask for money. If they did, they were considered to be false prophets.

Like the bi-vocational founding fathers of our nation, those who lead without the dependence on money lead better. This is because they do so without a conflict of interest. I know many pastors who can't lead with integrity because they might upset those who give the most money to the church.

if people want a church in a building they should pay for it.

I think a better question is, "Should people want a church building at all?" For almost 300 years the church met in homes, and it exploded. Once our wonderful faith became the state religion, church buildings were built just like the temples. And the growth waned as church leaders argued over doctrine, and evangelism was pushed to the side. The greatest revivals over the centuries have been grass roots movements in homes and small groups.

Billions are spent every year in new building, building maintenance, salaries and overhead costs of "doing" church. The sad thing is with all that investment, there is little spiritual revival to show for it. Very little goes to the poor. It is mostly a consumeristic Christianity we see today.

But there are glimpses of the NT church alive today. In Northern India and across Asia, there are men and women who ride bikes and spread the gospel like crazy. They begin churches all over that cost no money. These trained church planters have the Bible, the Spirit and a burning desire to see Jesus change lives. The ride into villages, and find a tree. Under this tree, they meet with those who are open to listen. A church of 8-12 is formed. From that church, leaders are identified and trained. Once trained, those leaders go and do the same. For one US dollar, 84 people come to Christ. Compare that with the average cost of beginning a church in the western world numbers in the ten thousands, and many times even six-figures. And 85% of those fail. I guess it truly is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

So where do I want to spend my money so that the kingdom benefits the most? I'll leave that to you and the fine folks on this forum to ponder

 

[Corn Pop]

Thats why i will never give to a church, charity, or organisation. Someone always takes a cut. Find a charity organisation and you will find although good is being done in the name of charity, you will many times find the organisers flying 1st class and drinking champagne under 'expenses'.

Charity need somewhere store them boxes of food. Might buy 2million house with double garage. 'expense'.
Charity need vehicle to deliver. Might buy new 500 benz.'expense'.


Need to fill the car up to do drop off boxes. 'expense'. Doing this work requires food,man gotta eat while running charity might to buy an icecream.'expence'.

And yes, are a couple rare needles in the haystack out there.

If not 100% goes to the cause and everyone is 100% voluntar they will never get a dime from me.

 

[younglite]

kiwidan, the key is not to focus on all those bad organizations, but to find a worthwhile cause to be a part of and give to. Be generous.

 

[Obadiah]

I was about to comment on this thread and then realized that my comment was based on something the OP said and then deleted. Most of you can't see those deleted comments. But, kiwidan, I really consider it disingenuous of you, especially as the starter of this thread, to make comments and then delete almost as much as you let stand. Those comments you delete say a lot about your position and ideas and it's unfair of you to post so many of them only to be seen by a few who happen to be online during the little time you let them be seen, and denied to everyone else who reads this later. Non-staff members can't see this, but you are the only one deleting posts in this thread and you have deleted almost as much as you have let stand. Some of what you deleted shows a terrible and prejudicial attitude toward the church that might be true of a small minority of churches but certainly not true of the church in general. This is a totally false view of the Body of Christ in general, it colors your attitude in this thread, and it is an unfair attitude to take considering you have told us many times that you yourself never attend church so in reality you have no firsthand knowledge of what goes on in any church, much less the church in general.

I'm not sure I support the idea of a 10% tithe being a requirement in the New Testament Christian church, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this idea that all churches are filled with thieves trying to rip of their congregation just to make themselves rich. I've been a Christian and been involved in a lot of churches for a long time now, and I've not known one single pastor or other church leader who lived a lifestyle that was any higher than the people in his own congregation. Most of them lived with less income and a lower lifestyle than those they served. It is disingenuous to accuse all of Christendom of the actions of a small minority of unscrupulous people.

 

[Brother Mike]

Just wondering if anyone can show me scripture where the biblical tithe suddenly went from the firstfruits of crops and flocks and fruits and vegetables, and suddenly turned into dolla bills?.

And, when the gentile church pastor, priest, whoever, become a levite?

It seems to me you value Dollar bills a bit to much. The truth is, if we just paid in corn and cattle, and that is all you had and very little of it, then your heart would think the same thing.

If your looking for scripture to tithe or not to tithe in a dogmatic way toward God, then your in error to start.

Tithe is about God first. Money is more important to many believers, so they would never consider putting God first with it. You can check their checking account and see who gets paid when money comes in first. God normally has to settle for a after thought drop of some bills in the collection plate, because God is not as important to that person as the money. That's if the person is even faithful to go to Church.

Not me though, God get's a Tenth just like who I am blessed in, Father Abraham whom I share the promise. It's good Morning Father when I wake up and Good night when I go to sleep.

I would not be to concerned about the tithe. If your not putting the Lord Jesus first in everything you do, and your heart knows it, then tithing or not tithing won't make a bit of difference.

Mike.

 

[Corn Pop]

It seems to me you value Dollar bills a bit to much. The truth is, if we just paid in corn and cattle, and that is all you had and very little of it, then your heart would think the same thing.

If your looking for scripture to tithe or not to tithe in a dogmatic way toward God, then your in error to start.

Tithe is about God first. Money is more important to many believers, so they would never consider putting God first with it. You can check their checking account and see who gets paid when money comes in first. God normally has to settle for a after thought drop of some bills in the collection plate, because God is not as important to that person as the money. That's if the person is even faithful to go to Church.

Not me though, God get's a Tenth just like who I am blessed in, Father Abraham whom I share the promise. It's good Morning Father when I wake up and Good night when I go to sleep.

I would not be to concerned about the tithe. If your not putting the Lord Jesus first in everything you do, and your heart knows it, then tithing or not tithing won't make a bit of difference.

Mike.

Well it is a bit hypocicy. We are under grace, not Law, so if people still believe in the tithe they just puting themselves back under the law.

So we not under the law, yet for some reason the tithe is the only law thats still valid to many churches.

It dont make sense.

 

[reba]

IS it hipocercy to honor ones father and mother..
Is it hipocercy to not murder
IS it hipocercy to judge another for their understanding

 

[Corn Pop]

I dont get it. I really just dont get it. So are you now saying the law stands?

 

[reba]

get what?

 

[Corn Pop]

get what?

So we are to honour our parents, not give false witness, no idols, love god keep the sabbath, keep the tithe, but are not under the Law?.

Like i said in that other thread how the commandments stand, Jesus summed them up in two. Love the Lord and Love others, yet others were saying they dont, we under grace and not the law.

 

[reba]

why can not folks honor the laws because of love do they have to be under them as if they are oppressed

 

[Corn Pop]

why can not folks honor the laws because of love do they have to be under them as if they are oppressed

So is the church under the Law, under grace, or under both the law and grace?

If a old commandment of God does not stand like eating pork, that means the tithe does not stand either, and there is no tithe.

One cant say one stands and another does not.

So we are under Gods grace through Christ right?, with only the advice to Love, that fullfill the 10 commandments.

Im just trying to understand. I know alot of what i have said in the past is wrong because it takes failure to grow the more understanding i get.

If people cant hold the law of sin, how can they hold the new of Love.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well it is a bit hypocicy. We are under grace, not Law, so if people still believe in the tithe they just puting themselves back under the law.

So we not under the law, yet for some reason the tithe is the only law thats still valid to many churches.

It dont make sense.

But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(Heb 7:6-8 KJV)

There is one that died that stills receives tithes, and it's witnessed that He is alive. Jesus the High Priest still receives them and Abraham gave the tenth (So did Jacob) without the law.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: (Man is appointed to die) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
(Heb 7:22-24 KJV)

Jesus still receives and will take a tithe, by the Order of Melchisedec through Abraham, and men that died had taken them but Jesus through a better testament is alive and will take them having a unchangeable priesthood.

Jacob:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jacob before the law which came 100's of years later gave a tenth of all the Lord gave him.

So, there would be no law, or commandment to give a tenth. In fact Paul said only give cheerfully, not forced (Out of necessity) Jesus still receives the tithe, and the blessing and promise goes with that.

Jacob's heart was I am going to give you everything first according to the tenth of it. God was first place in Jacob's life.

I am not sure what you mean the tithe is still a valid law in many churches. I would leave the SDA if that is your issue. I like the devourer rebuked for my sake. I like my things lasting as they should. I liked to be blessed, and I like to put God first by giving the same as what I am blessed in, being the Seed of Abraham and blessed with faithful Abraham.

You don't have to tithe, you don't have to want to be blessed, God does not have to be first with your money. There is no commandment for you to do anything with your money.

Mike.

 

[reba]

I am about to give up you have the right to believe as you wish.. .. just as others have the right to believe as they wish...
I never said the church is under the law
Let me try like this... say you had a wife who you loved deeply..pretend adultery was against the law... do you not cheat on her because you love her or because it is against the law..

 

[Corn Pop]

Oh and i also want people to take me in the right context. I believe the church is the body of Christ and that word is many peoples, and im not talking about that church. No peoples involved.

Im talking many different' systems' that call themselves church. Not peoples, not even a single pastor. Individuals and people have nothing to do with what i say.

 

[reba]

I have been a skeptic for 60 years... at age about 9 i witnessed a jerk of the preacher.. the lesson stayed.. but i also know , not every thing i ever believed was 100 % correct .. or i would have never grown in the Lord.
Some folks need laws.. some dont .. some need big churches I sure dont... Some like to dress up some dont.. God has different flowers in His garden .. we are not all just green lawn.. to be mowed
Joh_15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
years and years ago when i was sounding about like you .. mom said Reba chew the meat and spit out the bones...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh and i also want people to take me in the right context. I believe the church is the body of Christ and that word is many peoples, and im not talking about that church. No peoples involved.

Im talking many different' systems' that call themselves church. Not peoples, not even a single pastor. Individuals and people have nothing to do with what i say.

You are looking at people instead of looking at God.

 

[Corn Pop]

I am about to give up you have the right to believe as you wish.. .. just as others have the right to believe as they wish...
I never said the church is under the law
Let me try like this... say you had a wife who you loved deeply..pretend adultery was against the law... do you not cheat on her because you love her or because it is against the law..

Thank you. Good example. Thats all i was looking for. Now i understand.

 

[reba]

Praise the Lord

 

[Corn Pop]

You are looking at people instead of looking at God.

No. Im telling people not to take me in the wrong context because they have been from replies on the forum. Why do have to reply with a comment like that. Dont focus on me, focus on God. Same thing.

I dont want to upset anyone, and i need to go deep to get the truth.