Bible Study Question

[th1b.taylor]

I was about to comment on this thread and then realized that my comment was based on something the OP said and then deleted. Most of you can't see those deleted comments. But, kiwidan, I really consider it disingenuous of you, especially as the starter of this thread, to make comments and then delete almost as much as you let stand. Those comments you delete say a lot about your position and ideas and it's unfair of you to post so many of them only to be seen by a few who happen to be online during the little time you let them be seen, and denied to everyone else who reads this later. Non-staff members can't see this, but you are the only one deleting posts in this thread and you have deleted almost as much as you have let stand. Some of what you deleted shows a terrible and prejudicial attitude toward the church that might be true of a small minority of churches but certainly not true of the church in general. This is a totally false view of the Body of Christ in general, it colors your attitude in this thread, and it is an unfair attitude to take considering you have told us many times that you yourself never attend church so in reality you have no firsthand knowledge of what goes on in any church, much less the church in general.

I'm not sure I support the idea of a 10% tithe being a requirement in the New Testament Christian church, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this idea that all churches are filled with thieves trying to rip of their congregation just to make themselves rich. I've been a Christian and been involved in a lot of churches for a long time now, and I've not known one single pastor or other church leader who lived a lifestyle that was any higher than the people in his own congregation. Most of them lived with less income and a lower lifestyle than those they served. It is disingenuous to accuse all of Christendom of the actions of a small minority of unscrupulous people.

Valid point OB. My current Pastor, the man I have arraigned to preach and conduct mt Transition into Heaven came to our Church to make about 90% of what he earned as a Public School Teacher.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It seems to me you value Dollar bills a bit to much. The truth is, if we just paid in corn and cattle, and that is all you had and very little of it, then your heart would think the same thing.

If your looking for scripture to tithe or not to tithe in a dogmatic way toward God, then your in error to start.

Tithe is about God first. Money is more important to many believers, so they would never consider putting God first with it. You can check their checking account and see who gets paid when money comes in first. God normally has to settle for a after thought drop of some bills in the collection plate, because God is not as important to that person as the money. That's if the person is even faithful to go to Church.

Not me though, God get's a Tenth just like who I am blessed in, Father Abraham whom I share the promise. It's good Morning Father when I wake up and Good night when I go to sleep.

I would not be to concerned about the tithe. If your not putting the Lord Jesus first in everything you do, and your heart knows it, then tithing or not tithing won't make a bit of difference.

Mike.

Like yourself, mine comes off the top but is not 10%, it is more and when you add in he work my wife, I and our daughter do in the name of God we are some place north of 30% of our income. My daughter draws a flat 600 a month and with the cakes and food she easily doubles what she draws a month in SSD. I don't know why people try to keep an account of their giving to the LORD at all. I have yet to out give God.

 

[Obadiah]

Valid point OB. My current Pastor, the man I have arraigned to preach and conduct mt Transition into Heaven came to our Church to make about 90% of what he earned as a Public School Teacher.

Exactly. Many pastors could be making better money for less work and less stress in a secular profession. But unlike the thieves that some uninformed people try to make them out to be, they are there because God called them to the ministry, not because they want to make a lot of money. Even when you look at the small minority of pastors who seem to have a lot of money (the ones with the expensive brand cars, etc), when you look at the area they are a pastor in, and the makeup of their congregations, they are still living a lifestyle equal too and most of the time somewhere below that of their average congregation member. Granted there are a small handful of people who are out there just to make money off of Christianity that call themselves pastors (or whatever high and mighty title they choose for themselves) but they are a very small minority of rotten apples and a sane, logical, sober person will not condemn the entire church because of a handful of rotten apples.

 

[reba]

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

 

[Corn Pop]

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Yes let them give there time to someone in need, not grudingly, or nessesity, for God loves a cheerful giver of there time, to help others.

 

[younglite]

When you say we're not "under the law," it doesn't mean we don't still do (or not do) things required by the law. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). He explains further in that same passage to go beyond the law - don't just avoid murder - don't even hate. Don't just avoid adultery - don't even lust. The spirit of tithing would be the same. Don't just tithe, but go beyond that and be generous.

It is crazy to assume that since we're no longer "under the law," that we would not have to obey the spirit of the law. The context that Jesus was dealing with was not just the laws from the Torah, but also the additional "laws" of the Pharisees that helped them obey the law (how far to walk on the Sabbath, healing, combing hair, etc). He was clear in His practice (gathering grain on the Sabbath - Matt. 12:1-8) that He didn't care about their silly rules. When it came to tithing, Jesus told them that they should keep on tithing, but also to remember the deeper heart of the law (Matt 23:23). These are still wise words for us today.

 

[Brother Mike]

Like yourself, mine comes off the top but is not 10%, it is more and when you add in he work my wife, I and our daughter do in the name of God we are some place north of 30% of our income. My daughter draws a flat 600 a month and with the cakes and food she easily doubles what she draws a month in SSD. I don't know why people try to keep an account of their giving to the LORD at all. I have yet to out give God.

I use to keep track. Each seed produces after it's kind. Now the Holy Spirit helps bring to remembrance, so I don't anymore. We have paid lots of people money and given lots of things. When I need something, I remind the Lord I have seed and I am calling some of that in.

I have become more mindful of acting more quickly though. The wife was sitting by someone in Faith for Life class, and the Lord prompted me after class to ask the Wife if she was suppose to give that girl money or something. Wife says she had 20.00 on her heart, but the Women left before the wife responded. I said, now you want someone to hold onto something you need when the Lord tells them to give it to you?
Strange thing is, the wife lost that 20.00 when she got home. We have no idea where it went.

Blessings. Young man

Mike.

 

[Jim Parker]

Just wondering if anyone can show me scripture where the biblical tithe suddenly went from the firstfruits of crops and flocks and fruits and vegetables, and suddenly turned into dolla bills?.

And, when the gentile church pastor, priest, whoever, become a levite?

It was never "firstfruits"; it was a tenth of one's increase. (Profit, if you wish.) It's found at Deuteronomy 14.

The Levite never got the whole tithe. @ years out of three the Jews were to go to Jerusalem and rejoice before the Lord (party!) with their tithe and the third year they were to bring the tithe into the storehouses in their towns so that there would be provision for the widow, orphan, alien in the land, and Levite.

The preaching that we are to bring all our tithe into the church where we are "spiritually fed" is a religious fabrication. Paul told his disciples at Corinth (and us) "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2Co 9:7 NIV) "Under compulsion" refers to the law and, specifically, the law of the tithe found at Deut 14.

That being said, if you want a building to use for your religious services with a roof to keep the rain off you and air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter and if you want a decent pastor who doesn't have to hold down another job in order to be a pastor (1Co 9:14) then you need to contribute to those purposes.

Also, if you'd someday like to enter the kingdom of heaven for the rest of eternity then don't neglect the needs of the widow, orphan and stranger IAW (in accordance with) Mat 25:31-46.



Iakov the fool

 

[Corn Pop]

It was never "firstfruits"; it was a tenth of one's increase. (Profit, if you wish.) It's found at Deuteronomy 14.

The Levite never got the whole tithe. @ years out of three the Jews were to go to Jerusalem and rejoice before the Lord (party!) with their tithe and the third year they were to bring the tithe into the storehouses in their towns so that there would be provision for the widow, orphan, alien in the land, and Levite.

The preaching that we are to bring all our tithe into the church where we are "spiritually fed" is a religious fabrication. Paul told his disciples at Corinth (and us) "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2Co 9:7 NIV) "Under compulsion" refers to the law and, specifically, the law of the tithe found at Deut 14.

That being said, if you want a building to use for your religious services with a roof to keep the rain off you and air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter and if you want a decent pastor who doesn't have to hold down another job in order to be a pastor (1Co 9:14) then you need to contribute to those purposes.

Also, if you'd someday like to enter the kingdom of heaven for the rest of eternity then don't neglect the needs of the widow, orphan and stranger IAW (in accordance with) Mat 25:31-46.



Iakov the fool

So what do you do, just sit there every week listening to stories of the bible , from the Pastor and air conditioned church.

I would never fund a building for fellowship, I just go outside in the fresh air and talk with people.

Al people need to know is the Gospel.

 

[Roro1972]

Gen 28:22
Exo 30:11-16;;; 13 is the verse
Deut 14:22
Lev 27:32
Num 18:26;;;; Levites
Malac 3:8-10
Hebr 7:5;;;; Levites

 

[Jim Parker]

So what do you do, just sit there every week listening to stories of the bible , from the Pastor and air conditioned church.

That's a pretty disrespectful question, Dan. You got an issue or something?

 

[Corn Pop]

That's a pretty disrespectful question, Dan. You got an issue or something?

No. It was not disrespectful. I just asked a straight up question. What you do is your own business it dont worry me. No disrespect. I was just asking what you do at church, do you sit there and listen to bible stories in the air con?, every church is different.

 

[Jim Parker]

No. It was not disrespectful. I just asked a straight up question. What you do is your own business it dont worry me. No disrespect. I was just asking what you do at church, do you sit there and listen to bible stories in the air con?, every church is different.

no. we do not sit there and listen to Bible stories

 

[Corn Pop]

no. we do not sit there and listen to Bible stories

Thats all I asked. Never take me the wrong way, I love the church, I love the people, I love many pastors, im just not for any type of system thats all, so I wont go to church. It has nothing to do with many peoples, just systems.

 

[Obadiah]

That's all I asked. Never take me the wrong way, I love the church, I love the people, I love many pastors, im just not for any type of system thats all, so I wont go to church. It has nothing to do with many peoples, just systems.

Yet you have made soooo many posts illustrating your contempt for all churches! (Even though you have a habit of making them and then deleting them before too many people see them.) It makes it kind of hard to believe that you didn't mean any disrespect in your statement. I'm sure you can understand why another person would take it this way.

 

[Sinthesis]

What is wrong with tried and true systems?

 

[Corn Pop]

Yet you have made soooo many posts illustrating your contempt for all churches! (Even though you have a habit of making them and then deleting them before too many people see them.) It makes it kind of hard to believe that you didn't mean any disrespect in your statement. I'm sure you can understand why another person would take it this way.

I have never said all churches, and im not for church systems I have said that many times, I dont believe in it, I dont believe in tithe, I dont believe people should be paid to preach the Gospel. There just my personal opinion. It has nothing to do with individuals.

Have I named a church or pastor. No. If you want to generalise me go ahead. I have said clearly my opinions and its nothing personal towards anyone.

 

[cherovis]

The tithe was instituted in the law to the Jew. This law was never given to the gentile. In fact, Paul never uses the word tithe in scripture & he was the apostle to the gentiles. The tithe was ended upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, it is right to give to the support of the church. God loves a cheerful giver & the needy are always ion need. We are to give generously & according to our hearts. But tithes are not required for the gentile. you won't find tithing anywhere in Pauls teaching.

 

[Roro1972]

1 Corin 16
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
can one think "as God has Prospered him" to mean food or money or any other type of prosper, I think Yes.

 

[smaller]

I have never said all churches, and im not for church systems I have said that many times, I dont believe in it, I dont believe in tithe, I dont believe people should be paid to preach the Gospel. There just my personal opinion. It has nothing to do with individuals.

Have I named a church or pastor. No. If you want to generalise me go ahead. I have said clearly my opinions and its nothing personal towards anyone.

It's a valid observation. Pastors, over time, are essentially forced to pander to those who pay them and hence, serve their constituents, which can very well turn out to be serving money and serving specialized interests i.e. sectarian divisions.

It's part of the problem with christianity in general. If someone wants to actually make a living, they have to differentiate from others in order to draw a crowd and to sustain themselves.

Very slippery slope. Christian theology in this way can turn out to be "mob rule." OR, likewise, 'special financial supporters' can pay to have their way. IN this way it is the "money flow" that directs what happens.

Anyone who can't see this is the reality of the "systems" just isn't looking. Even more, in older forms of christianity it has resulted in general dead ritualism, in order to not disturb the flock with too much information.

It's a big problem imho, but perhaps it was meant to be that way. I'm in the latter understanding. That this was meant to happen, and no accident.

These things force a believer who is sincere, to bear down on their own understandings.

Some reformers recognized that the church, by nature, perhaps needs to be "ever reforming" [semper reformada] simply because none of us have perfect understanding or perfect sights, but should always press to that goal.

That is genuine bait, that is needed and imho, very helpful.

From my own travels across the christian marketplace, I've found that those who are NOT inclined or interested in money whatsoever have the best theological gems of understandings. No, not always perfect, but certainly not stamped out and replicated from a sectarian theological seminary via mass production.

When any man or group claims to have "all truth," that to me indicates immediately, that such have issues unless that claim of "all truth" includes the truth of "partial sight." Then the claim itself is somewhat disingenuous. The Apostles never claimed to see everything perfectly and in fact claimed the opposite. That of partial sight, at least in the case of Paul.

And that I think is an immediate fair measure to use because it's honest.

The difficulties this provides is that people, by nature, demand perfection and total sight, and won't submit to "following" less than what they happen to think is "perfect sights" and "perfect understandings."

That's not what faith is about. Faith tends to be "fuzzy" by nature of the conflicts that are realities. Example? I doubt very much that Joseph being tossed into a well to die saw in advance that God can and does use adverse circumstances to bring about His Own Ends. Nor do I think he knew the entire scheme of things in advance from beginning to end.

Nor do any of us. In reality we are "all" engaged in finding our own ways through our own special adverse circumstances, NO TWO are alike. This is God's Present Reality for every believer.

Crowds and power/money flows are most often WRONG, and I tend to lean away from crowd mentalities on this basis. There is no crowd, or even another person, that can relate to my own factual subjectivity. That all remains between "me" and my Maker.