Questions Concerning Messianic Judaism

[Deborah13]

If you wanna bypass the article and click on the link, as it is more user friendly, so be it. Just thought I'd share a teaching most Christians wouldn't be exposed to. Just trying to share God's awesomeness. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thank Ryan, I read every word of your post and enjoyed it very much. If this thread had not been just this type of information I would not even be interested. Just as I always have read Jason's and Jeff's. It is so awesome to understand what God was doing all along and comforting too. He has a plan and He's stickin' to it.

 

[Deborah13]

I would like to give an example from Lev. that touched me when I read it.
Two birds and a sacrifice. One bird is killed, the other bird is dipped in the blood of the first, then in moving water and then set free.

 

[jasoncran]

lets see here.
he shall be called Immanuelle..hmm. that is God is with us. yet the jews have nothing to say on that name. in Jewish thought that can be a title or a character ie when something happens as in Ichabod. etc.

 

[Ryan]

God used all that were willing even gentiles. Jews today admit this.They look for a messiah to restore them to their land so that they via the torah can redeem the world.isnt that what the church is supposed to be doing?

Well if you know about evangelizing in Israel, Christians, but even more so Messianic Jews are outcasts. Now this is just purely my perspective based on second and third hand accounts. Christianity is still viewed as a group throughout their history that has persecuted the Jews. This is truth. To make this worse, Jews have long memories and don't forget things quickly. This is improving though as many Christian outreach groups are making inroads with the Jewish people. But I think my next point is the most profound why evangelizing the Jews has been difficult.

That's because Christianity is selling a Messiah that is a false prophet. I'll say that again. Christianity is selling a saviour to the Jews that is a false prophet. Here's why. The Torah has sustained the Jewish people through 2000 years of exile. They knew that one day they would return back to Israel. Even though the majority have rejected Christ, they still found hope in the Torah scroll. Deuteronomy 30 was clear they would be restored. and they did, even when all hope had been lost.

The Torah is very clear, that a prophet that comes and takes away, adds, or annuls any of the commandments of God, is to be declared a false prophet. What has been offered to them? A Messiah that has taken away instructions such as the dietary laws. But most importantly, changed the Sabbath, made new feast days as Easter and Christmas, and done away with any semblance of a Jewish Messiah. So in the most literal sense, they are obeying God's very own commandments. That's not me saying that, that is religious Jews saying it.

I would like to give an example from Lev. that touched me when I read it.
Two birds and a sacrifice. One bird is killed, the other bird is dipped in the blood of the first, then in moving water and then set free.

As this sacrifice was for the poor, brings to mind Mary and Joseph's financial situation. And of course the parallel to our sins being washed away.

Luke 2:22-24 And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

 

[jasoncran]

i understand that. that is because we don't know how to present that Lord to them.that and the Lord must also show them that the kosher laws and sacrifices were merely shadows.

 

[Deborah13]

i understand that. that is because we don't know how to present that Lord to them.that and the Lord must also show them that the kosher laws and sacrifices were merely shadows.

Ryan, Jason,

So being types and shadows only why would the Lord bring them back in the Miil.
Sorry I still don't get it.

 

[jasoncran]

No, it wouldn't. whose shadow is it? GOD 's or itself? The torah teaches Gods nature to men? LOVE. when he returns all that was pure to men and the creation will be restored.

 

[Deborah13]

The types and shadows that the HS has opened my eyes to are those of our Savior, the Christ, Jesus. Yes, and God's nature of love for His people.

All that is pure to men and the creature says to me, no more blood shed. A time of peace in Jesus as Lord and King.

I guess I'll just have to pray about it again, that the HS opens my eyes. But maybe it's not for me right now. Eyes not totally in slumber but certainly sleepy.

 

[farouk]

In Scripture, as a general principle of interpretation, shadow gives way to substance.

 

[jasoncran]

Gods full presence on the earth or new earth and new heaveans is that substance. while its not clearly said and I do have an opinion. my opinion is that the earth will be restored to its pure state without death of men nor animals.

 

[farouk]

Gods full presence on the earth or new earth and new heaveans is that substance. while its not clearly said and I do have an opinion. my opinion is that the earth will be restored to its pure state without death of men nor animals.

I guess this has rather moved on from Messianic Judaism, though.

 

[jasoncran]

revalant. since messianic Judaism is a branch of schofieldism. most of them aren't jews but gentiles.

 

[farouk]

revalant. since messianic Judaism is a branch of schofieldism. most of them aren't jews but gentiles.

I don't quite see the connection between this post, and my previous one, but since you mention Scofield and people who aren't from a Jewish but a Gentile background, do you mean that people from a Gentile background who are converted to Christ thereby embrace Judaism or ought to do so? (I don't quite understand.)

 

[Deborah13]

Gods full presence on the earth or new earth and new heaveans is that substance. while its not clearly said and I do have an opinion. my opinion is that the earth will be restored to its pure state without death of men nor animals.

Yes, certainly in the new heaven and new earth.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't quite see the connection between this post, and my previous one, but since you mention Scofield and people who aren't from a Jewish but a Gentile background, do you mean that people from a Gentile background who are converted to Christ thereby embrace Judaism or ought to do so? (I don't quite understand.)

any jew who was in the torah and under its weight often wants nothing to do with the idea of kosher laws and et all. its a real heavy burdern. so likely its unsaved gentiles that read the torah and or meet another that is into what they do.

if I did kosher laws it wouldn't be cheap. I have been told by a jewess that you don't want to be under the torah. women cant teach nor read the torah. it must be read to them.

 

[Ryan]

any jew who was in the torah and under its weight often wants nothing to do with the idea of kosher laws and et all. its a real heavy burdern. so likely its unsaved gentiles that read the torah and or meet another that is into what they do.

if I did kosher laws it wouldn't be cheap. I have been told by a jewess that you don't want to be under the torah. women cant teach nor read the torah. it must be read to them.

I would say the majority of Messianic are Gentiles. I guess at our place, the numbers are probably 20% Jewish, 80% Gentile. And of those 20%, maybe only a handful actually grew up in a true Jewish background and upbringing. Course it's different wherever you go. Coming to embrace a Torah observant lifestyle has truly not been difficult. When I first became saved, I remember eating 2 pounds of bacon with my son as a meal. Now, it's another meal and healthier. The true laws of the Torah are easy, or God would never have said this: Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Some of the rabbinical stuff after the fact is what was the yoke of bondage Jesus was admonishing the Pharisees about. If it's a heavy burden, I would ask why, cause God's Word says otherwise.

As far as women not being able to teach or read the Torah. That as well in unbiblical. Deborah and the Prophetess Anna are two I can think of now. One a leader, the other a prophetess.

As far as the Law being a shadow. Think of it as someone having a lamp being illuminated onto a wall and making animals, or other assorted stuff with their fingers. It takes all the person's digits to make various "stuff" for lack of a better word. But it showed to something that was beautiful and wonderful.

John 1:14 And <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>the Word <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>became flesh, and dwelt among us, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>grace and <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>truth.

Jesus was the walking Torah and the walking Word. He was the revelation and manifestation of the Torah. However, if you look at a shadow of your hands there are 10 fingers (hopefully). You look at the real thing and you can see the detail, fingerprints, etc. However the theology that has gripped Christianity for hundreds of years has taught that some of the fingers are taken away now. Done with, burdensome, annuled, reversed. So in essence, the real thing is no longer the shadow of what was to come. It's missing a finger or two. Taking away his commandments, we have taken bits and pieces of his character of the revelation that was revealed to us in Jesus.

 

[farouk]

Are the 80% people of Gentile origin in a church called Messianic regarded as having embraced Judaism?

 

[Deborah13]

All the law hangs on two, Love God, Love your neighbor (who includes even your enemy, in my view).

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Are the 80% people of Gentile origin in a church called Messianic regarded as having embraced Judaism?

I'd think that would be a safe bet, though I don't believe that many in Messianic congregations as a whole are of non-Jewish background.

 

[Ryan]

Are the 80% people of Gentile origin in a church called Messianic regarded as having embraced Judaism?

Some more than others. It is very hard to embrace some of the "traditions" of Judaism if you don't have a strong Jewish culture to pass that to others. Most of Paul's Epistles were written to Jewish folk, who already had or were following Jewish customs. But it was easier then, as whole communities or neighbourhoods were Jewish. They did there best to remain together as a group so they could maintain their distinction. And maybe also because the Gentiles thought they were an odd bunch. We don't have that here except maybe for a couple of places in north America were there is a strong Jewish presence.

For the vast majority of us though, it's about embracing and following his commandments that are the most important.