Questions Concerning Messianic Judaism

[Ryan]

You have come to an erroneous conclusion here. You need to read the next chapter, which clearly shows that while the new covenant is better than the old (which as Hebrews 9 shows, was the Mosaic Covenant, not the Abrahamic Covenant), it does not negate either. This fact renders the rest of your post off the mark as to what is being discussed.

Good pick up. It should read "So God will write the Law on our hearts in the New Covenant." It shouldn't read the first covenant.

Hebrews 9 is confirming the fact the provision for the Levitical Priesthood is rendered obsolete. Yom Kippur is what is being discussed and only once a year could the High Priest enter into the Holy of Holies. I won't say anymore as we may get more off topic here.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The writer of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31, showing with whom the covenant is made -- the House of Israel and Judah. The fault with the first covenant is that the people strayed from it. So God will renew the first covenant by writing Torah on their hearts this time and not on tablets. Which Law is written on our hearts?

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


This verse comes at the conclusion of two whole chapters devoted to showing the superiority of Jesus's "Melchizedek' priesthood to that of our earthly Levitical priesthood. So what is 'ready to vanish' must be taken in the context of what has just been discussed! It is the earthly temple and the earthly priesthood ready to vanish, to be rendered inoperational (as did occur a few years later in 70 CE). What is about to vanish away here is NOT Torah; it can only mean the just-discussed temple & associated priesthood. Why? "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17 Have heaven and earth ended? The law will not fail! The only thing about to vanish away here is the earthly temple and priesthood.
Now notice that the need for a priesthood doesn't change, merely the means of provision for the priesthood. Torah is upheld, the provision for the priesthood is upheld. But instead of earthly priests we will now have a perfect high priest instead. Likewise with sacrifices -- the need for a sacrifice doesn't fade away (if it did, Jesus would have died in vain since the Torah covenant requiring sacrifice would be made void!) Torah remains valid, what changed was only the means of how the sacrifice was provided. Torah is upheld, God makes provision for both a priest and a sacrifice even though the temple cult is about to disappear.


We're not going there.


Absolutely not. In what part of my language have I been divisive? I stated biblical facts, supported by scripture. Did I not quote Ephesians 3:6? Romans 11? We are all one body, but recognizing the covenants came through Israel, not a separate entity that was based on an idea "the church" began in Acts 2.


Oh dear Allen. You outed me. Have you forgotten the message I gave you back some time ago? Here it is as a refresher, and where I am coming from.


Hey allenwynne,

I prefer if I had my way, to just label myself as being a believer in Jesus. I am Jewish and attend a Messianic congregation, so you could call me a Messianic Jew. That is sometimes how I introduce myself to others. Sometimes to establish common ground, or sometimes to illicit thought and further discussion.

My 10 year old daughter asked if we were Jewish or if we were Christian. I told her it doesn't matter what we call ourselves, as long as we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength, and love one another as we would love ourselves. I told her whatever she wanted to call herself, as long as she loves Jesus more then anything is the most important thing.

Labels like Christian or Messianic Jew or Protestant or Baptist, etc, etc only further serve the separation and the walls that our individual theology put up against each other. I put Christian as a No based on even if one doesn't label themselves as a Christian, they are no less a believer, or have any less passion for serving our Lord. When I pray, I pray for all believers in Jesus, not by the labels we want to place on each other. Labels are what we use to judge each other, and that is something I try to avoid. Hope that answers your question.

**[edited, off topic]**

God Bless and Shalom,
Ryan

Just for clarification though. We have Jewish blood and lineage after my dad did genealogy work and blood tests. Wasn't raised in a Jewish home, but in an evangelical type background and churches we attended. Does this sound as wanting to put up further walls? Even Messianic Jews would say I have no right to call myself a Messianic Jew. But I like Paul's words here in 1 Corinthians 9:22-23 "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.<SUP class=crossreference value='(AJ)'></SUP> I have become all things to all people<SUP class=crossreference value='(AK)'></SUP> so that by all possible means I might save some.<SUP class=crossreference value='(AL)'></SUP> <SUP class=versenum>23 </SUP>I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

I never forgot what you told me, I wanted everyone else to hear it.
If you are claiming to follow Jesus but don't call yourself a christian, then everyone should know why.
I think your personal convictions are fine, but you do cause separation by refusing to call yourself a christian.
You think you need to follow the law but no longer the levitical laws.
So you pick and choose which laws to follow, thinking that this is the way it should be.
All I can say is, that's your problem.
When you choose to follow the law, it takes away from the completed work of Christ.
In essence, you are saying that what he did wasn't good enough.

 

[Ryan]

I never forgot what you told me, I wanted everyone else to hear it.
If you are claiming to follow Jesus but don't call yourself a christian, then everyone should know why.
I think your personal convictions are fine, but you do cause separation by refusing to call yourself a christian.

If you want to call me a Christian as representative of being a follower of Christ, I have no problem with that.

You think you need to follow the law but no longer the levitical laws.

There are certain laws one cannot follow given no temple, Sanhedrin that in doing so, would be a sin. Plain and simple.

So you pick and choose which laws to follow, thinking that this is the way it should be..

No, God gave us instructions and teachings on how we are to walk out our life based on our faith to him. One can either choose to follow them, or choose not to. Plain and simple.

All I can say is, that's your problem.

Didn't know I had a problem.:help

When you choose to follow the law, it takes away from the completed work of Christ.

Jesus did not come to this earth and when he obeyed a commandment of his, we could check it off a list and say that he obeyed it for us, don't need to do that one now. Jesus gave us an example to live by of even what Paul reiterated. 1 Corinthians 11:1 "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." That example was to live out his Torah that is based on love.

In essence, you are saying that what he did wasn't good enough.

No, what I'm saying as in 1 Corinthians 11:1 is I want to walk out my faith and my love for him, in the same manner he walked out his. I want to follow in his footsteps. So what is wrong with doing what he did?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well Ryan, you have your answers for everything as I knew you would.
But just for the record, we are separated in our beliefs.
I know in heaven we will be together, because God knows how to bring us together, but for now...

 

[Deborah13]

I don't know if I am following you correctly, but I would say all the covenants are valid, if that's the language you are using. If you look at the bible as one long marriage contract and God's desire to be back in relationship with us, requires us to accept and participate in certain things. If you look at covenants as marriage vows, it is easier to understand. God layered covenants on top of one another and built upon previous covenants. It doesn't make any previous covenants obsolete, even though Hebrews 8 alludes to that, of which I addressed that above. Best way I can explain it is you are already married, want to renew your vows, have another ceremony renewing and making better promises based on the previous marriage contract. Does that rended the first marriage contract null and void? No. you have made a new covenant, but based on a previous covenant. The New Covenant does not render previous ones obsolete, but has better promises such as the Holy Spirit and the Law eventually and completely being written on our hearts. Is that where you were going?

And if you were only under one covenant, then Ephesians 2:12 has something interesting to say about that.

"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants [plural] of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Ryan, I apologize if I have missed something in reading all of the post made by everyone, so please forgive me if I am asking you to repeat yourself. I have a simply question.

In any of the practices you observe are you doing them with your justification in mind? Or...Do you see yourself as being completely justified by faith in the Christ?

I think this is the determining factor. Personally, I don't see a problem with anyone observing Feasts such as Passover as long as they are not doing it a "work" for justification.

If others here do not agree with this last statement please advise me as I am ignorant in somethings.

 

[jasoncran]

so where will these early church jews that died on Christ be in the rapture? on the earth or in isreal?im of isreal. im in Christ not isreal. if a jew or isrealite is saved then what is he? a follower of Christ or a jew?

the new covenant of atonements applies not the old one. the cross completed the need for the idea of animal atonements and many of these feasts have them in that. ie rosh hoshanna, Passover,

 

[Deborah13]

so where will these early church jews that died on Christ be in the rapture? on the earth or in isreal?im of isreal. im in Christ not isreal. if a jew or isrealite is saved then what is he? a follower of Christ or a jew?

the new covenant of atonements applies not the old one. the cross completed the need for the idea of animal atonements and many of these feasts have them in that. ie rosh hoshanna, Passover,

I have heard on this site and I read it myself in Scripture (it did appear that way) that there will be animal sacrifices during the millenium? Not for atonement.

So you are saying that one should not participate in a traditional Passover meal because there is no longer an animal sacrifice?

 

[farouk]

I have heard on this site and I read it myself in Scripture (it did appear that way) that there will be animal sacrifices during the millenium?

I don't understand the issue well. But those who speak thus, refer to them as memorial sacrifices (not atoning ones). Many readers see the end of Ezekiel referring to a rebuilt temple. A church is not a physical building but a gathered company of people with a heavenly character. A temple is a building, whether figuratively of people performing spiritual sacrifices, or a physical structure performing physical ones. We may remember also that Paul, a leading teacher of the sufficiency of the finished sacrifice, went to the temple in Jerusalem with a view to performing Levitical offerings.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Oh that's right, Paul I mean. He made the Nazerite vow and 4 others and he circumcised Timothy I think.

 

[farouk]

Oh that's right, Paul I mean. He made the Nazerite vow and 4 others and he circumcised Timothy I think.

Deborah: Yes, and regarding circumcision, Paul strongly argued against compelling it; he also practised it in certain circumstances.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, I apologize if I have missed something in reading all of the post made by everyone, so please forgive me if I am asking you to repeat yourself. I have a simply question.

In any of the practices you observe are you doing them with your justification in mind? Or...Do you see yourself as being completely justified by faith in the Christ?

I think this is the determining factor. Personally, I don't see a problem with anyone observing Feasts such as Passover as long as they are not doing it a "work" for justification.

If others here do not agree with this last statement please advise me as I am ignorant in somethings.

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Ecclesiastes 12:13 "Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind."

Daniel 9:4 "I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments,"

Oops sorry, that's the OT economy. I better quote the NT economy.

1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."

2 John 1:6 "And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it."

So why do I do the above, because I love the Father. He knows best how my life should be lived out, and I trust that.

so where will these early church jews that died on Christ be in the rapture? on the earth or in isreal?im of isreal. im in Christ not isreal. if a jew or isrealite is saved then what is he? a follower of Christ or a jew?

1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

Romans 10:12 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;"

There is no distinction, but who were all the covenants made with? All of them were made with Israel, well, the Noahide Covenant was with all mankind.

the new covenant of atonements applies not the old one. the cross completed the need for the idea of animal atonements and many of these feasts have them in that. ie rosh hoshanna, Passover,

Will there be sacrifices in the Millenium as per Ezekiel?

 

[Deborah13]

There is no distinction, but who were all the covenants made with? All of them were made with Israel, well, the Noahide Covenant was with all mankind.


Will there be sacrifices in the Millenium as per Ezekiel?

If I remember correctly there will be unsaved people during the Millenium and all I can figure is that the Lord will allow them to continue in this practice until/if they receive Him and His blood for atonement.
Just like He did when He was here the first time.

 

[Ryan]

If I remember correctly there will be unsaved people during the Millenium and all I can figure is that the Lord will allow them to continue in this practice until/if they receive Him and His blood for atonement.
Just like He did when He was here the first time.

Unsaved people were never permitted to offer a sacrifice if I remember correctly. It was only for a saved and redeemed people.

 

[Deborah13]

Unsaved people were never permitted to offer a sacrifice if I remember correctly. It was only for a saved and redeemed people.

Why would a saved person need to offer a blood sacrifice?

 

[Ryan]

Why would a saved person need to offer a blood sacrifice?

The sacrifices were never prescribed to take away sin, as we know the sacrifices of bulls does not take away sin. If that was the case, then sin and sin freely. How many sins can I get for my bull so to speak? Atonement only came from an unintentional sin, never an intentional sin. Like I said, sin and sin freely if that was the case.

The majority of the sacrifices, of which there were more then one kind, were more freewill offerings then anything. It was a means of drawing nearer to God, and in some cases, were offerings of gratitude for what God did in their life. I would really urge reading a good, Jewish or Messianic commentary on Leviticus. Leviticus is a hard read, and most people give up not knowing what is what.

 

[Adullam]

From my understanding Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity that believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, but strictly following Jewish law and commandment?

How widespread is it? Also what do they call their house of worship? A church? Synagogue? Temple?

What are their typical practices compared to Christianity?

Messianic Judaism is really a compound of errors from both religions. Most Messianics believe that Gentile Christians are not the bride of Christ...only they are. So this sect brings division to the body of Christ...as all denominations invariably do.

 

[Ryan]

Messianic Judaism is really a compound of errors from both religions.

Really? How so?

Most Messianics believe that Gentile Christians are not the bride of Christ...only they are.

None of the Messianics I know or have ever encountered think that. Very, very few would believe this. And it would be an oddity. That's like saying the Westboro Baptist Church is representative of all Baptists. Fringe groups out there for sure, but it would be an exception, no the rule

So this sect brings division to the body of Christ...as all denominations invariably do.

Explain how it's been divisive to the body?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have done some research and have found that there is a division in messianic judaism as to what they believe just as there is division in gentile denominations.
Don't worry, God will straighten it all out.

 

[Ryan]

I have done some research and have found that there is a division in messianic judaism as to what they believe just as there is division in gentile denominations.
Don't worry, God will straighten it all out.

Of course there is some division. But most of the division is in relation to interpretations on how to carry out God's commandments. A couple of issues right now is "One Law" and "Two House Theology". Like you said, it will get sorted out in the end.

Interesting note, a good number of the people who come to Shabbat on Saturday, also attend Christian services on Sunday's. One family was brought before their deacons and elders of the church they are attending on Sundays, and were asked to explain their heretical behaviour for attending a Messianic congregation. Nice eh?

 

[Sparkey]

What may be said about that? Well, to quote a descendant of David, "Fruit of Righteousness is sown in peace, for those who make peace." Why is there a delay between hearing and doing? The Lord's Prayer shall be answered and we will see what is forsworn, "thy will be done." How? "In earth as it is in heaven."

It is true what has been said, that God has shown the end from the beginning. (see Isa 46:10, Ps 33:11, Proverbs 19:21, Isa 14:24, Isa 25:1, 41:4, 48:3, 53:10, 55:11)