Questions for Catholics and Protestants

[thessalonian]

Henry,

Are bowing down and kissing always worship?

I don't happen to see the passage "henry, thou art rock and on this rock I will build my Church ....I give YOU the keys...". I don't see "thou art Matthew and on this rock I will build my church.... I give you the keys...." either. Odd he only said this to Peter. I think Peter had a bit more significance than the average Joe in setting up the Church. Perhaps it's not us that need to reevaluate and change according to what others say.

Blessings

 

[Henry]

thess

Tisk tisk this is why people respond so poorly to you, you know very well I was not claiming to be the ROCK, never the less you twist what I said to mock me. This is why you are respnded to so badly here.

 

[CatholicXian]

Nonetheless, it would be fruitful to the discussion if you could answer the question:

Are bowing and kissing always acts of worship?

 

[gingercat]

Are bowing and kissing always acts of worship?

Many of the things that Catholics doing seem very much showing special respect.

So many things catholics practice is carrying from Roman pagan traditions. Have you studied it? If early reformers did not fight against RCC's dictation we (except for some Popes) could not have the Bible.

I am sorry that Catholics are practicing so many unbiblical things and you are not listening.

You are royal to your popes rather than Jesus. If your leaders are not right with God, you should not obey to them, period.

 

[mutzrein]

I do believe that worship is a matter of the heart and your not very qualified to judge the hearts and minds of men, since it's a talent that only God has.

Blessings

Thess - I disagree with you. No surpise there I suppose. But this is why:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Now you will notice I haven't stated where I got this from but I can tell you it is in scripture and no doubt you are going to tell me this doesn't mean what it says it does.

I'd sure be interested though to hear a catholic spin on why judging 'all things' does not apply to hearts and minds. And where does God get talent?

 

[Imagican]

shouldn't this have been saved for the 'Thess bashing thread'? (he he he). Just joking.

Those that have the Spirit ARE capable of judging ALL things. Discernment and judgement ARE the same thing. Now, we are told to beware of 'how' we judge, but that those filled with the Spirit are 'capable' of judgement is WITHOUT doubt.

And that God/talent thing was quite a 'hoot' eh Mutz?

 

[gingercat]

Those that have the Spirit ARE capable of judging ALL things. Discernment and judgement ARE the same thing. Now, we are told to beware of 'how' we judge, but that those filled with the Spirit are 'capable' of judgement is WITHOUT doubt.

'


You have to repeat this many many times, Imagican :D

 

[mutzrein]

shouldn't this have been saved for the 'Thess bashing thread'? (he he he). Just joking.

Those that have the Spirit ARE capable of judging ALL things. Discernment and judgement ARE the same thing. Now, we are told to beware of 'how' we judge, but that those filled with the Spirit are 'capable' of judgement is WITHOUT doubt.

And that God/talent thing was quite a 'hoot' eh Mutz?

LOL - I only noticed the Thess thread after posting here. But I have made a subtle (maybe) brief post there also. :wink:

 

[CatholicXian]

Are bowing and kissing always acts of worship?

Many of the things that Catholics doing seem very much showing special respect.

So many things catholics practice is carrying from Roman pagan traditions. Have you studied it? If early reformers did not fight against RCC's dictation we (except for some Popes) could not have the Bible.

I am sorry that Catholics are practicing so many unbiblical things and you are not listening.

You are royal to your popes rather than Jesus. If your leaders are not right with God, you should not obey to them, period.

The Church did not withhold the Bible from the people. The Scriptures are proclaimed at every Mass. If you attended Mass everday, after about 3 years you would've been through roughly the whole Bible. Was the Bible kept under lock and key for a time? Yes. Before the printing press and Bibles were extraordinarily expensive-- if someone stole the Bible, then a parish would be without a Bible... not good.

I am not loyal to the Pope at the expense of Christ. I do not believe that anyone has adequately shown that the Papacy preaches anything contrary to the Gospel.

... and as for bowing down: Daniel 8:17. Daniel "fell prostrate" (i.e., face flat on the floor) before the Angel Gabriel. Joshua does the same (Joshua does not know that Jesus is God. Jesus only identifies Himself as the "captain of the host of the Lord") in Joshua 5:14.

Don't feel sorry for me. Pray for me. I can always use more prayers. But I can promise you that I will never reject the Catholic faith, because in doing so I would be rejecting the truth of Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

The spiritual man can judge all things right and wrong but (but only those enlightened with true knowledge and understanding) not the hearts of men.

So Imigican and mutz, am I going to heaven or hell. Judge me dudes. Do you suppose since you guys think eachother has the Holy Spirit (or maybe you don't) that you will judge equally? If you do not then your judgement is not of God.

Now the question you must answer that non-catholics always avoid when I ask it is is all bowing down and ring kissing worship? If it is not you cannot, as non-catholics always do, judge a person simply because they are bowing down or kissing a ring. Are all statues evil? If so why don't you go protest the lincoln memorial and rip ex 25 and numbers 16 out of your bibles. Once again because someone has a statue, that does not mean they are guilty of worshipping them. I have one of Mary and one of Jesus outside my house. I know for a fact I have never worshipped either of them. So answer the question about bowing down and kissing being worship. I know you won't (goad goad) :-D

 

[thessalonian]

I do believe that worship is a matter of the heart and your not very qualified to judge the hearts and minds of men, since it's a talent that only God has.

Blessings

Thess,

I changed my life according to what the Bible says, I have been finding out so many unbiblical practices because I have been non-believer for a long time.

You should open your mind and heart to others' criticisms if they make sense instead of telling them "'not to judge". that's how we learn by listening to critics. I have changed many of my practices because of others' criticisms. I appreciate their criticisms that I could not see for myself.

Once again you fail to understand what I am saying. When someone is bowing down that is not automatically worship according to the Bible. Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. The Jews bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant in Ex 7. Were they worshipping it or were they not. You simply cannot judge it by externals because as God judged it he granted them victory on the next day. They were worshipping him and not the ark. David bowed down before Bethsheeba. Was he bowing in worship? I don't think so. If you judge these events and others as worship just because they were bowing down, then you judge wrongly. If your going to judge at least take all the Bible in to account.

 

[mutzrein]

The spiritual man can judge all things right and wrong but (but only those enlightened with true knowledge and understanding) not the hearts of men.

So Imigican and mutz, am I going to heaven or hell. Judge me dudes. Do you suppose since you guys think eachother has the Holy Spirit (or maybe you don't) that you will judge equally? If you do not then your judgement is not of God.

Now the question you must answer that non-catholics always avoid when I ask it is is all bowing down and ring kissing worship? If it is not you cannot, as non-catholics always do, judge a person simply because they are bowing down or kissing a ring. Are all statues evil? If so why don't you go protest the lincoln memorial and rip ex 25 and numbers 16 out of your bibles. Once again because someone has a statue, that does not mean they are guilty of worshipping them. I have one of Mary and one of Jesus outside my house. I know for a fact I have never worshipped either of them. So answer the question about bowing down and kissing being worship. I know you won't (goad goad) :-D

So there are different levels of the spiritual man then? Some who can judge all things right and wrong (although the scripture doesn't say that) and some who are enlightened with true knowledge and understanding (and again the scripture doesn't say that).

Scripture says, “by their fruit you will know them.â€Â
And it also says, “But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

The fact is Thess, I can’t even say in my heart this one is going to heaven and that one is going to hell. It is not that I have decided not to do it, it is impossible for me to do it. I don’t have it in me. It is Christ and Christ alone who will judge mankind’s eternal destiny. Not me or Imagican or you or anyone else. When the time comes, Christ who has been given all authority under heaven and earth by God, will judge.

So what does that tell you about those who do make that ‘judgement’? Their righteousness is not the righteousness that is by faith. And as a spiritual man - a man of the Spirit of God - I can make that judgement.

As far as your bowing, ring kissing, erection of statues and other elements of catholicism is concerned, to me it is not what you do that matters but why you do it. So may I ask, before I make a judgement, what do you see as the purpose for doing and having these things.

 

[thessalonian]

As far as your bowing, ring kissing, erection of statues and other elements of catholicism is concerned, to me it is not what you do that matters but why you do it. So may I ask, before I make a judgement, what do you see as the purpose for doing and having these things.

I would bow before a pope and kiss his ring in honor of the office that God has created.
Statues remind me of those who have been faithful to God by his grace and have run the good race and done great things in his name.

It is all about him and what he has done through men.

Now answer. Is bowing down always worship. If one has a statue must one worship it any more than a picture of their kids in their wallet? I worship God alone. This however includes recognizing his work in and through men who have gone before me with faith.

 

[CatholicXian]

Honoring/venerating the Saints in Heaven is honoring God. Why? Because they are His. He created them.

For example, say you walk into an art gallery, and it's a big opening for the artist (so he's there). As you wander around you see all these amazing paintings, and you stop by one and just gasp, "WOW, this is absolutely amazing!" when the artist happens to be standing by. When the artist responds, "Thanks, I'm glad you like it." Do you brush him off and insist that you are only talking about the painting as though he had nothing to do with it? Or do you marvel even more at the talent of the artist?

What about giving medals at the olympics? Or academic achievement awards? Both are bestowing honor on people.

 

[mutzrein]

As far as your bowing, ring kissing, erection of statues and other elements of catholicism is concerned, to me it is not what you do that matters but why you do it. So may I ask, before I make a judgement, what do you see as the purpose for doing and having these things.

I would bow before a pope and kiss his ring in honor of the office that God has created.
Statues remind me of those who have been faithful to God by his grace and have run the good race and done great things in his name.

It is all about him and what he has done through men.

Now answer. Is bowing down always worship. If one has a statue must one worship it any more than a picture of their kids in their wallet? I worship God alone. This however includes recognizing his work in and through men who have gone before me with faith.

Obviously I can't talk for all. I give honour when and where honour is due. For example one of my boys received a sports award last season. He was given a trophy which represented a person playing his sport. The trophy is displayed in a prominent position and it reminds us of his dedication and effort. I honour him for that. This is in the human realm - in an area of human endeavour.

And there are some individuals who have been gifted by God with positions of authority as kings or rulers in one way or another. And to these I give honour.

But, none of these do I worship because God (my Heavenly Father) alone is to be worshipped.

Now as far as the physical manifestation of my honour to these people is concerned I do so in a manner that is appropriate to each and to the occasion.

Now, I also honour men (and women) in whom I recognise the Spirit of God and who walk in the power of the risen Christ.

BUT – when it comes to honouring men who are purported to be God’s representatives or who deem themselves to be favoured by God or who have taken unto themselves some sort of cloak or mantle of authority, when in fact they are not, then I will challenge whatever they do or say if it be in the name of God. And this has nothing to do with denomination or creed.

As far as statues or icons are concerned, this is my view. It seems that many need to be reminded of certain people, so images have been made of them to aid their remembrance. And it seems they are also used in order that the beholder can identify both the icon or statue, and therefore the one who is displaying the same can be identified, for example, as belonging to a particular group.

BUT - The spirit of the living God that raised Christ from the dead dwells within me. I don’t need statues or icons to remind me of the one who has redeemed me. Christ is within me and I am in Him. And just as He is within me then I don’t need statues or icons in order that people may know I am a Christian. Those who have the Spirit of God or those who are drawn by the Spirit within me can testify that I am indeed a child of the living God. As it says, “by their fruit you shall now them.â€Â

 

[Henry]

I would bow before a pope and kiss his ring in honor of the office that God has created.

That is a terrible thing, the office of Pope is man made not given by God anymore then the Prophet of the Mormons.

I find it sad and reprehensible this man would dare accept such adoration.

 

[Imagican]

And Henry, I second that emotion. We are ALL brothers in Christ. He that would be 'greatest' among us is HE that is willing to serve the MOST. What I see in the Catholic faith is a complete ignorance of this and men worshiping 'a man' instead. The congregation 'serving' the leaders instead of the opposite. Sad it is indeed.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

DB

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

And Henry, I second that emotion. We are ALL brothers in Christ. He that would be 'greatest' among us is HE that is willing to serve the MOST

Their is a reason why we call the Pope, "The servant of the servants of God".
If you think the Papacy is all candy and sunshine, you must not understand his role, and the difficulties he has to endure.

What I see in the Catholic faith is a complete ignorance of this and men worshiping 'a man' instead.

Uh... I don't worship the Pope

The congregation 'serving' the leaders instead of the opposite. Sad it is indeed.

Are you implying our deacons, priests, and bishops do not serve? That the laity only serve them?

Do you know this by personal experience?

 

[daniel1212]

is bowing worship or proper?

In honor of the office of the papacy, created by Jesus Christ I would bow down before the pope and kiss his ring, knowing that he is a man given authority to guide the Catholic Church by Christ himself and through him.
It would not be worship because the pope is only a creature in Christ's creation for the purpose of serving him and bringing about glory to him. Rend your garmets if you must.

Hi, my name is dan (a former Roman Catholic) and i hope you do not mind me commenting here.
The issue of bowing down is not simply whether it is worship or not, but whether it is proper for any Christian to receive such. While bowing does not necessarily denote worship as to God, it is overall treated as such, and thus the command, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them" Ex. 20:5). And in that realm, bowing down in Scripture is most consistently used of worship, false or true,
“And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king” 1Chr. 29:20)
Amaziah “brought the gods of the children of Seir, and set them up to be his gods, and bowed down himself before them, and burned incense unto them” (2Chrn 25:14)
We remember what made wicked Haman mad was bcz "Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence" (Est. 3:2, 5).
Now it is true that Godly Joseph allowed his brethren to bow down to him, but if we are to believe that the Pope is a successor to Peter than the latter would be a more fitting example. And of him we see that when “Cornelius fell down at his feet, and worshipped him,” then “Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man” (Act 10:25, 26).
If Peter himself refused such, the strongest case is that no Christian should receive such voluntary worship or obeisance, though God can make the enemies of devout and suffering Christian to eat dirt before them in due time (Rev. 2:9).
Yet the other issue is whether the Pope is even worthy of any of the RCC claims, that of a perpetuated and ultimately infallible supreme Petrine papacy to whom all the world should submit, and it is my position that he is not. However, that is too much of a more extensive issue for now.