Questions Regarding Free WIll

[Douglas Summers]

. I find Romans very, very deep theologically and grammatically. It challanges me to comprehend it at times.

Romans becomes more clear as we begin to go through many of the things Paul experienced.
One point I might add. When Paul says that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit, No condemnation and walking after the Spirit, is the RESULT of being in Christ Jesus. It is not something we have to keep by good works or attain to keep in Christ Jesus. When he compares the difference of walking after the flesh and walking in the Spirit, he is not talking about one man with two different decisions on which one to obey. But he is talking about two men: one man walking in the way of Adam (void of the Spirit) and the saved man (who walks with the Spirit by rebirth) The Spirit is a permanent possession. The result of being saved (from God's wrath) Romans 8.

 

[smaller]

Some might, true. But the real questions is; Is it more reasonable that the Romans reading his letter to them 'get the picture' from receiving Paul's letter to them by reading verse 7:7 then 7:17,20 or by 'connecting the dots' to his 2nd letter to the Corinthians or to the Ephesians (which wasn't even written yet).

It's clear from very early in the scriptural narratives that the devil is involved with sin. Gen. 2.

Only a pity when people see just man.

 

[childeye]

No, I'm saying that by seeing my need for the Lord, In which God drew me to by Christ (His Word) that I converted. Converted means (to turn from your ways or to change your mind about God and man) Conversion is a human action. Then I called upon the name of the Lord and was baptized in His name.. Upon calling on the name of the Lord I was regenerated (that is an act of God). By receiving The Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) I escaped the lust of the flesh. The Holy Spirit is a permanent possession. Now, to say there is no battle between the flesh and the Spirit would be a lie, but as we mature in our new state in the Lord, the burden of the flesh against Spirit begins to dissipate to where it has little remembrance if any. Every born again believer will experience a change in his life upon regeneration.

Where does free will fit in? In regards to that question, you have indicated that conversion is a human action, whereas I would conclude that our actions are indicative of our conversion or lack thereof, but perhaps that is what you meant to say.

Conversion to me is a changing of how we think about God, and therefore how we view all things differently before and after the knowledge that is in the Person of Christ. Free will is like denying that any thoughts we entertain are coming from some other source than ourselves, (That we are independent in our reasoning and the subsequent course of action). What about Satan and his ability to beguile and deceive us about God, and therefore about ourselves? As I see it, fundamentally all moral/immoral reasoning begins with what one first thinks about God which is why the Holy Spirit is vital to sanity, since He testifies to a Holy God. And since what we think of God is what ultimately defines good and evil in our perception, then I don't see a free will.

 

[smaller]

Some might, true. But the real questions is; Is it more reasonable that the Romans reading his letter to them 'get the picture' from receiving Paul's letter to them by reading verse 7:7 then 7:17,20 or by 'connecting the dots' to his 2nd letter to the Corinthians or to the Ephesians (which wasn't even written yet).

The very simple point of observation in "all" of these matters, which I might hope that born again believers understand is this:

That the flesh doesn't and can't understand and/or cooperate with the Spirit because they are factually opposed to each others and against each others. This is not indicative of "freewill" but walking real time live opposition, as Paul directs us to observe. And in this he makes this conclusion:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul stakes out the identical sight in Gal. 4:29 again showing the opposition of the flesh to the Spirit. And again in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15 & 19 & 21.

When we are walking in the Spirit we truthfully walk with evil present with us. When we do good we still have sin dwelling in our flesh, which is in opposition to and against the Spirit.

This negates any legitimate claims of being entirely on one side of the line because we are factually a compilation of both good and evil, internally. No action of good will offset the fact of evil present with us or sin dwelling in our flesh. This is the basis of salvation by faith in Christ through His Grace and Mercy. Indwelling sin and evil present can not "earn" a single thing from God in Christ nor can any freewill eradicate these internal (adverse spiritual) facts.

Now, I've taken some heat for making this observation, but I make this observation, universally, to any sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us including my own flesh/evil present/indwelling sin. These things will not and do not cooperate with the Spirit and can not because it's impossible for indwelling sin and evil present to even understand any thing of the Spirit. They are in fact opposed to same.

Freewill can not eliminate this friction/tension of the scriptures. The Bedrock of Salvation by Grace through faith is our inability to eradicate our state in the flesh and it's opposition to the Spirit. This also imposes a very real present tense fear of God dynamic into the scriptural narrative. And the flesh/indwelling sin/evil present will not and can not accept this either.

The flesh/indwelling sin/evil present will always falsely lead to thinking we're only "all good dog" with God in Christ, and that is NOT the case.

In the Spirit we understand that we have reason to fear God, knowing He is against evil present and sin dwelling in our flesh, which conditions freewill can not remove by good decision making or good actions. In every action our obvious issues with these matters, seen or unseen, remains with us all.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Where does free will fit in? In regards to that question, you have indicated that conversion is a human action, whereas I would conclude that our actions are indicative of our conversion or lack thereof, but perhaps that is what you meant to say.

Conversion: Convert or conversion in biblical terms means to "turn" or "turn back". It is to change your thinking or belief or mind about man and God. Why or how is it that we change our minds? By hearing the word of God. And how will they hear without a preacher. (Romans 10:12-21). They can accept or reject. (that is the action of a man). When he calls upon the name of the Lord, Then God regenerates that man with a new birth (the Spirit of Christ). That is an act of God's sovereign will. (Matt. 13:15)
That is what I meant.
:

 

[childeye]

Conversion: Convert or conversion in biblical terms means to "turn" or "turn back". It is to change your thinking or belief or mind about man and God. Why or how is it that we change our minds? By hearing the word of God. And how will they hear without a preacher. (Romans 10:12-21). They can accept or reject. (that is the action of a man). When he calls upon the name of the Lord, Then God regenerates that man with a new birth (the Spirit of Christ). That is an act of God's sovereign will. (Matt. 13:15)
That is what I meant.
:

Again, where is the free will? To accept or reject is only inevitable as a matter of due course. But each and every person can't logically be equally capable of both rejecting and accepting, which is what free will implies. Such a state of mind would more properly be identified as a will that is double minded or undecided, not a free will.

Ultimately, inside the will/desire/choice of a man, there must be a reason/source/purpose as to why one person must accept, and also a reason/source/purpose for why another person must reject.

And scripture testifies to this. I notice that in 1 Corinthians 1:23, 24 , the Gospel is described as purposefully intended, by God, to be seen in two different lights. To some it is foolishness and a stumbling block, while to others it is the wisdom and power of God. Where is the free will to choose to see the power and wisdom of God in those meant by God to stumble and see only foolishness? Conversely, how can I who has seen the wisdom and power of God revealed in the Gospel, also have chosen to see foolishness and stumble? In this application, free will is an obscure and pointless terminology that is unviable as a premise to explain why someone chooses one way or the other. It's merely conflating the inevitable choice/decision with the presentation of a choice/option, and then inexplicably calling it a freely made choice, for the sole purpose of appointing personal responsibility, based on the errant unproven conclusion that the person could have chosen otherwise.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Again, where is the free will?

What is your definition of freewill ?

 

[childeye]

What is your definition of freewill ?

It means to me that all people are morally/immorally independent and therefore personally responsible for our desires, choices and subsequent actions. Self -determination in the moral/immoral purview.

 

[chessman]

That the flesh doesn't and can't understand and/or cooperate with the Spirit because they are factually opposed to each others and against each others. This is not indicative of "freewill" ...

Or "that the flesh doesn't and can't understand and/or cooperate with the Spirit because they are factually opposed to each others is precisely indicative of freewill. Take your pick.

Freewill can not eliminate this friction/tension of the scriptures.

It is not freewill's function to eliminate the "friction/tension" of the Scriptires. There is no "friction/tension" of the Scriptures to eliminate.

The flesh/indwelling sin/evil present will always falsely lead to thinking we're only "all good dog" with God in Christ, and that is NOT the case.

I'm pretty sure being with God in Christ solves this problem.

 

[Douglas Summers]

It means to me that all people are morally/immorally independent and therefore personally responsible for our desires, choices and subsequent actions. Self -determination in the moral/immoral purview.

If that is what you believe, tell me why it does not apply to my post #365?

 

[childeye]

If that is what you believe, tell me why it does not apply to my post #365?

To make sure we're understanding one another, I would like to make one thing clear. Post #368 is how I define the term "free will". It is also therefore, the same "free will" that I do not believe is there when applied to the moral/immoral purview, and which I am using scripture to show that.

This is what I am left to wonder about from your post #365, "They can accept or reject. (that is the action of a man)." When I read this statement, it does not indicate whether or not you believe the "free will" I have defined, exists in the action to accept or reject. Regardless of my not knowing whether you said this statement to establish "free will" according to my definition or some one else's, I gave scripture to show that the Gospel is a means of calling a specific type of person and repelling another, according to God's pleasure and not according to any man's "free will" (my definition).

Therefore, there is another problem I have with your statement which I also pointed out in post #366. A free will choice would be voluntary, whereas "They can accept or reject" is not a voluntary action according to scripture, as it is a forced action to do one or the other by the sword and judgment that is the Gospel. That is why any inference that each and every person is equally capable of doing both "accept and reject", would be imprecise since in reality "they" can only do one and not the other according to God's purpose. I cannot tell if you meant to imply such an inference. But If the mere presence of a choice/option, that a person is forced to choose between as a means of sifting is seen as a free will action to you, then I would have a problem with your definition of free will, as it avoids the evidence of the moral ineptitude present within mankind that inhibits a person from being morally self determined, which is made apparent through the Gospel.

 

[Douglas Summers]

To make sure we're understanding one another, I would like to make one thing clear. Post #368 is how I define the term "free will". It is also therefore, the same "free will" that I do not believe in when applied to the moral/immoral purview, and that I am using scripture to argue against this definition of "free will".

None of those thoughts or doctrines have any revelance as to the assurance of my security and salvation that is in the POWER of God in Jesus Christ. Repent or perish. All those who are heavy laden, come unto me and I will give you rest. Those who hear and do, build upon the rock (Jesus) Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Everything else is sinking sand.

 

[childeye]

None of those thoughts or doctrines have any revelance as to the assurance of my security and salvation that is in the POWER of God in Jesus Christ.

That's okay, but as for me, I am not thinking or speaking about it out of any concern for my security or salvation, but rather out of sincere desire to worship God Truthfully and without pretense. I would point out that Satan became enamored of his beauty which was a product of God's providence and not attributable to himself, and therefore to lose sight of this begets vanity. Therefore it is significant that God has chosen the lowly and weak things to bring to nothing the high and mighty. And this has everything to do with the Power of God vs. the free will of man.
1 Corinthians 1:
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Therefore it is significant that God has chosen the lowly and weak things to bring to nothing the high and mighty. And this has everything to do with the Power of God vs. the free will of man.
1 Corinthians 1:
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Those Scriptures are personal not corporate. In otherwords it is to each individual to judge themselves on their relationship with God (Spiritually). For we are to judge ourselves (our walk and our new nature) walks in the will of God.. If we faint from that walk, it is God who will Chastize us as son's. (Heb. 12:1-15). Those Scriptures you posted are not for us to use to judge others or for us to say who are high and mighty (even though they may be) If we do not judge ourselves, God will judge us. Now the nominal christian (in name only) is on his own! (1 Cor. 11:31-32)

 

[childeye]

Those Scriptures are personal not corporate. In otherwords it is to each individual to judge themselves on their relationship with God (Spiritually). For we are to judge ourselves (our walk and our new nature) walks in the will of God.. If we faint from that walk, it is God who will Chastize us as son's. (Heb. 12:1-15). Those Scriptures you posted are not for us to use to judge others or for us to say who are high and mighty (even though they may be) If we do not judge ourselves, God will judge us. Now the nominal christian (in name only) is on his own! (1 Cor. 11:31-32)

The scriptures I quoted mention nothing about judging ourselves, nor do they imply that any man can judge any other man, but rather they are about how God 's foolishness is wiser than the wisdom of men. This is evidence that mankind does not have a free will in the moral/ immoral purview.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The scriptures I quoted mention nothing about judging ourselves, nor do they imply that any man can judge any other man, but rather they are about how God 's foolishness is wiser than the wisdom of men. This is evidence that mankind does not have a free will in the moral/ immoral purview.

I'm moving on child, If you have it figured out, you don't need my colaberation. Your insistance on your idea of free will is yours. If you are trying to say that I'am prideful, or putting myself in a position above God's will or even that I'am able to be perfect on my own now and don't need God, or the scope of God's influence in my walk is little or a lot, I assure you, That the Lord resides in me, I was born again, and my life is constanly aware of His guardianship of my soul.
In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[childeye]

If you are trying to say that I'am prideful, or putting myself in a position above God's will or even that I'am able to be perfect on my own now and don't need God, or the scope of God's influence in my walk is little or a lot, I assure you, That the Lord resides in me, I was born again, and my life is constanly aware of His guardianship of my soul.
In Christ
Douglas Summers

Respectfully, you've misconstrued my intentions. I've never thought any of the things you mention.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Respectfully, you've misconstrued my intentions. I've never thought any of the things you mention.

Sorry, I just do not know what point you are trying to make? None of it fits into my walk with the Lord. I understand and believe all the Scriptures you quoted, but I do not see the relevance of them to free will?