Rapture Theory

[JLB]

Just as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Elijah and so forth are dead in their graves are we also when we die until Christ returns. Can you show me scripture where it states anyone has gone to the third heaven, exclude visions and dreams please.

Here is your scripture that states that such a one [anyone] was caught up to the third heaven.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:2

Who are these in heaven?

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Revelation 7:9

The throne and the Lamb are in the third heaven.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory
First, my I ask if you believe the prophesy of Revelation is merely a dream or vision? Second I would like to know where you think God's throne is; first, second, or third heaven? Thanks.

John saw a vision while he was in the Spirit when he heard the voice of God tell him to write in a book all the things that the angel was about to show him of everything that would come to pass until that of Christ return.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Here is your scripture that states that such a one [anyone] was caught up to the third heaven.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:2

Who are these in heaven?

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Revelation 7:9

The throne and the Lamb are in the third heaven.


JLB

I never said that anyone was caught up to the third heaven, but only stated that all who have died in the Lord are still in their graves. Rev 7:9-17 was only a vision of what the angel was showing John of all the saints of God who will be with God and Jesus in the New Jerusalem after the return of Christ and we are resurrected from the grave if we die before His return.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Notice the difference between Paul using the word caught up to the third heaven and then using caught up to paradise. What Paul is saying is that he knew a man that was in the Spirit and was in a higher place or peaceful place as God spoke to him from the third heaven where God sits on His throne. I don't know if you know the term being slain in the Spirit as John 18:6 describes it as not being able to physically stand when in the presence of the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Eugene]

John saw a vision while he was in the Spirit when he heard the voice of God tell him to write in a book all the things that the angel was about to show him of everything that would come to pass until that of Christ return.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God.

for_his_glory

I’ll take your answer to say you believe John only saw a vision while in the Spirit, and as such you don’t take Revelation to be substantial to show anyone was ever was caught up unto the third heaven.

for_his_glory - Can you show me scripture where it states anyone has gone to the third heaven, exclude visions and dreams please.

I too believe God’s throne is in the third heaven.
Thanks anyway – I’ll just let this go. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eugene maybe this will help the absent from the body and be present with the Lord discussion as all who have died in Christ remain in the grave until the coming of the Lord for there is no man that God ever breathed life into that has ever gone to be with the Lord yet. Paul is saying he would rather be with the Lord, but knew it was better for him to remain here on earth as he still had much to do for the Lord until the day he physically died.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Php 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Php 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

 

[Eugene]

Eugene maybe this will help the absent from the body and be present with the Lord discussion as all who have died in Christ remain in the grave until the coming of the Lord for there is no man that God ever breathed life into that has ever gone to be with the Lord yet. Paul is saying he would rather be with the Lord, but knew it was better for him to remain here on earth as he still had much to do for the Lord until the day he physically died.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Php 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Php 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

for_his_glory, you are possibly using a dream or vision. Everything Paul wrote with few exceptions were the result of the revelation He received of the resurrected Jesus.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

When?

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (was he caught up asleep?)

Notice that Paul could hear while in a supposed unconscious condition.
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

From some of the things you are saying, can I take that you believe in the doctrine of soul sleep also?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (asleep?)
Luk 16:23 And in hell he (the rich man) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory, you are possibly using a dream or vision. Everything Paul wrote with few exceptions were the result of the revelation He received of the resurrected Jesus.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

When?

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (was he caught up asleep?)

Notice that Paul could hear while in a supposed unconscious condition.
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

From some of the things you are saying, can I take that you believe in the doctrine of soul sleep also?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (asleep?)
Luk 16:23 And in hell he (the rich man) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

First I do not believe in soul sleep, but do believe when we die, or as scripture says we sleep until the coming of the Lord, 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, our body goes back to the ground and will decompose, but our spirit/breath goes back to God, Ecc 12:7, who gave it and preserves it until the day of judgement.

Have you ever heard the term slain in the Spirit, John 18:6; Acts 9:4-8; Rev 1:17. It's when a person loses all motor control over their body and falls to the floor or ground when they are in the divine presence of the Holy Spirit. The Roman soldiers were slain in the Spirit when they faced Jesus to arrest him. Paul was slain in the Spirit on the road to Damascus as well as John when he received that of Revelations and then wrote it in a book. Paradise is a place of being in a peaceful place like being in the presence of the Lord or as the thief would be in a peaceful place in the grave until Christ returns.

What Paul is speaking about in 2Corinthians 12:2 is that he knew a man, whether he was speaking of himself or someone else it really does not specify, but could not tell if this man was in his body or that he really went up to the third heaven. We know by scripture that no one has ever gone up to the third heaven as only God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell there plus the very breath of just men that that is being preserved until the day of judgement, Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27. This man was in his own body, slain in the Spirit, but Spiritually in the presence of the brightness of God speaking to him. Just as Moses had to hide his face when God spoke to him as no one can look directly at God and live, Exodus 33:20. The word revelation means God reveals as in dreams or visions given by His Holy Spirit as he speaks to us.

 

[Eugene]

for_his_glory. Dear sister, I too believe our bodies remain in the grave until Christ’s return, but I believe our spirit is conscious with the Lord.

My best understanding of the term “Slain in the Spirit” is illustrated in the following scripture with Daniel.
Dan 10:7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
Dan 10:9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
Dan 10:15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

Quoting for_his_glory - What Paul is speaking about in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is that he knew a man, whether he was speaking of himself or someone else it really does not specify, but could not tell if this man was in his body or that he really went up to the third heaven.
Eugene - Paul is the only one I know of that received such a revelation directly from Jesus spoken of in Galatians 1:11-12, and the gospel he received was in effect the fulfilled gospel hidden from ages and generations none other had ever received.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Quoting for_his_glory - We know by scripture that no one has ever gone up to the third heaven as only God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell there plus the very breath of just men that that is being preserved until the day of judgement.
Eugene – When Jesus uttered the following words He had yet to die and make heaven open. John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Eugene - If none are in heaven, who is Jesus’ angel and just how did he get there?

Quoting for_his_glory - Just as Moses had to hide his face when God spoke to him as no one can look directly at God and live.
Eugene – John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The only form of God we will ever see to my understanding is the only image He presents, and that is our Savior Jesus. In Him we are beckoned to come boldly unto God's throne of Grace. Heb 4:16.

Thanks and blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

for_his_glory said -

Notice the difference between Paul using the word caught up to the third heaven and then using caught up to paradise. What Paul is saying is that he knew a man that was in the Spirit and was in a higher place or peaceful place as God spoke to him from the third heaven where God sits on His throne.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


Caught up to the third heaven.

Paul went to the third heaven.

The scripture does not say "Paul was in a peaceful place" and God spoke to him from the third heaven.

If the scripture said this then I would agree with you.

However, you "changed" what the scripture said, and added what "you say", which is much different than what the scripture states.


JLB