Rapture Theory

[n2thelight]

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who are they that God will bring with Him, in verse 14?

Christ brings back all those who died in Him....That's why the body will not be risen out of a grave,because it already has been...The body that is burried will never be used again......Ive heard it said that it's just the breath,if that's the case how do they explain the below verses

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

We as Paul stated,have two bodies,at death one goes back to dust,while the spirit goes back to the Father

 

[n2thelight]

What is your position?Are you pre-trib....mid-trib....no trib?

There will be tribulation,as Christ stated however most people don't understand what the trib is,and the fact that there shall be two,one of satan,and one of Christ.....The first that is of satan is nothing but deception(satan pretending to be Christ)I don't believe in a rapture period,we will simply gather back to Christ at the 7th trump,after the trib,after satan is revealed,who is the son of perdition that Paul spoke about....

 

[Kathi]

There will be tribulation,as Christ stated however most people don't understand what the trib is,and the fact that there shall be two,one of satan,and one of Christ.....The first that is of satan is nothing but deception(satan pretending to be Christ)I don't believe in a rapture period,we will simply gather back to Christ at the 7th trump,after the trib,after satan is revealed,who is the son of perdition that Paul spoke about....

If you do not believe in "a rapture period" then why all the questions?

 

[n2thelight]

If you do not believe in "a rapture period" then why all the questions?

Curious,and I like the subject......Mostly I like planting seeds,and Im spreading the word,that there won't be a rapture....You said in an earlier post satan was not here because you still were,I ask a question to the wrong member...The question is why do you feel you won't be here,when Paul says we don't gather to Christ until after satan is revealed?

 

[Sinthesis]

JLB

YLT - Young's Literal Translation
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

However, NASB does have 'the' so I will concede that it is possible that the 'the' should be there in Rev.

So why do you see this tribulation as being worse then any thing that happened/happens before or after?
I see that what happened in 70AD as so horrendous that even the Holocaust does not compare to it.

Look at Rev 7:14 in the Greek. I'm no Greek scholar, but I see "τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης" which would appear to me as actually "the great the tribulation".

What gets interesting is what Rev 2:22 suggests as the way to avoid "εἰς θλῖψιν μεγάλην","the great tribulation", and who goes through it. Notice that the churches are still there to witness the effects of this tribulation.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't see the answer to my question. It can be just a simple yes or no. I am asking if I am understanding your view?

You are saying that God has a dead person's breath/life somewhere. He will bring that back with Him when He raises the dead and the living?

Yes.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (soul) shall return unto God who gave it.
Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".

 

[for_his_glory]

Please show the scripture that states no one has ever entered the third heaven.

Please do not list the scripture "tags" that you have referenced but the scripture itself that states no one has ever entered the third heaven where God dwells on His throne.


Thank you.


JLB

Just as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Elijah and so forth are dead in their graves are we also when we die until Christ returns. Can you show me scripture where it states anyone has gone to the third heaven, exclude visions and dreams please.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[for_his_glory]

If no one has entered the third heaven where Jesus is where are the dead believers? :neutral

asleep in their graves until the coming of the Lord.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are not three actual levels in heaven.I think the Mormons believe this.

I'm not Mormon and yes the Bible does teach three levels of heaven

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God and the holy angels and spirits (souls) of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (soul) shall return unto God who gave it.
Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".

Thank you for this response, my question has been answered with scripture as well.

I don't believe we are a two part being but rather three. Spirit, soul, and body as Paul says.
Without a soul a being, human or animal can't live, breathe, think, have emotions, etc.
Until we are spiritually regenerated in our spirit by the Holy Spirit, we are just dead men walking.

 

[Deborah13]

Look at Rev 7:14 in the Greek. I'm no Greek scholar, but I see "τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης" which would appear to me as actually "the great the tribulation".

What gets interesting is what Rev 2:22 suggests as the way to avoid "εἰς θλῖψιν μεγάλην","the great tribulation", and who goes through it. Notice that the churches are still there to witness the effects of this tribulation.

I saw that too where there is two 'the"s, and would read like you have stated it. Young's did not include it and I'm not sure why. Is it because of some rule in the Greek? I don't know.

Hmm...no I did not notice that about the churches. But I will certainly look at it now. Thanks

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for this response, my question has been answered with scripture as well.

I don't believe we are a two part being but rather three. Spirit, soul, and body as Paul says.
Without a soul a being, human or animal can't live, breathe, think, have emotions, etc.
Until we are spiritually regenerated in our spirit by the Holy Spirit, we are just dead men walking.

I agree as we are fleshly born, given that breath of God which is our very soul that is our essence and the spirit we walk by is either that of the indwelling Holy Spirit or a spirit of self that is carnal. Without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit we are dead men walking.

 

[Deborah13]

Just as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Elijah and so forth are dead in their graves are we also when we die until Christ returns. Can you show me scripture where it states anyone has gone to the third heaven, exclude visions and dreams please.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is just off the top of my head, I haven't prayed about it.
This is not the New Jerusalem coming prepared to receive the bride but as a bride for the groom. What is a city without the people who are the bride?

I'm open to critiquing here.

 

[Deborah13]

I agree as we are fleshly born, given that breath of God which is our very soul that is our essence and the spirit we walk by is either that of the indwelling Holy Spirit or a spirit of self that is carnal. Without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit we are dead men walking.

I don't think carnal man walks by his spirit at all. I believe he walks by his soul/flesh.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is just off the top of my head, I haven't prayed about it.
This is not the New Jerusalem coming prepared to receive the bride but as a bride for the groom. What is a city without the people who are the bride?

I'm open to critiquing here.

Not sure where you are getting New Jerusalem, bride and groom out of this. I was explaining there is no one in heaven, but only asleep in the grave until the coming of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't think carnal man walks by his spirit at all. I believe he walks by his soul/flesh.

I meant spirit as one's own will. Guess I should have made that clear, my bad!!!

 

[Deborah13]

I meant spirit as one's own will. Guess I should have made that clear, my bad!!!

I figured you did.

 

[Deborah13]

Not sure where you are getting New Jerusalem, bride and groom out of this. I was explaining there is no one in heaven, but only asleep in the grave until the coming of Christ.

Sorry now I'm guilty of not being clear!
The only reason I used your post was because you had posted the scripture. My post really wasn't saying anything for or against what you posted.
It is was not even a complete thought, just ignore it. Somehow I twisted around the timing of that resurrection???
I agree that...
The New Jerusalem would include all the people from the first resurrection.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry now I'm guilty of not being clear!
The only reason I used your post was because you had posted the scripture. My post really wasn't saying anything for or against what you posted.
It is was not even a complete thought, just ignore it. Somehow I twisted around the timing of that resurrection???
I agree that...
The New Jerusalem would include all the people from the first resurrection.

From one Deb to another Deb we're allowed to boo boo at times :biggrin............I guess we are human

 

[Eugene]

Can you show me scripture where it states anyone has gone to the third heaven, exclude visions and dreams please.

for_his_glory
First, my I ask if you believe the prophesy of Revelation is merely a dream or vision? Second I would like to know where you think God's throne is; first, second, or third heaven? Thanks.