Rapture to heaven in 1 Thess. 4

[reddogs]

Hello- The question is if one is to strictly read 1 Thess. 4:13-17 I was wanting to know if there is specifically anything in this text that states the dead in Christ rise to heaven or does it just say they rise to meet the Lord who descends down from heaven...It does not specifically mention the Lord turns around and takes them up to heaven...I am thinking the verse that must show this is that Jesus said if he goes away he will come again and receive us unto himself that where he is there we might be also...I would also like some input on why this seems to be presented in a pre tribulation time frame, when it could just as easily be shown to happen after the tribulation. Thank you

The core Christian belief has always been that Christ comes to take us to heaven as we see if His promise.

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[locust]

You don't know me. But you avoid my insinuation, that your Christianity is in question when you question the authority of Paul in his epistles.

you is thinking Paul would understand the book revelation?

 

[locust]

The core Christian belief has always been that Christ comes to take us to heaven as we see if His promise.

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

how is that inline with Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered+ ones, since they will inherit the earth.?
Obviously someone is going to be here

 

[RandyK]

you is thinking Paul would understand the book revelation?

Yes, I think he probably understood what John would've understood. He knew John, though he died before the Revelation was given. But if John understood it, it is highly likely that Paul would've understood it too. A lot of what was given in the Revelation is already in Paul's letters.

 

[RandyK]

Where in Paul's letters is there truth similar to that given in the Revelation?

1) 1 Peter 5.13 "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark."

Peter is using a common euphemism for the pagan city of Rome, referring to it as pagan "Babylon." Since Paul was friends with other apostles and Christian leaders of his time, we might assume they shared a common lingo?

The book of Revelation speaks of "Mystery Babylon," which is the "city that rules" (Rev 17). It is obviously referring, in cryptic terms, to the city of Rome.

2) Eph 5.23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

The Revelation speaks of the wife of the Lamb. Rev 21.9 "One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

3) Gal 4.26 "But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother."

The Revelation speaks of the New Jerusalem.

4) 1 Tim 1.17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen... 6.15 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords."

Paul identified Jesus as the "King of kings," which is also how he is depicted in the Revelation. Rev 17.14 "They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.... 19.16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords."

 

[locust]

Where in Paul's letters is there truth similar to that given in the Revelation?

1) 1 Peter 5.13 "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark."

Peter is using a common euphemism for the pagan city of Rome, referring to it as pagan "Babylon." Since Paul was friends with other apostles and Christian leaders of his time, we might assume they shared a common lingo?

The book of Revelation speaks of "Mystery Babylon," which is the "city that rules" (Rev 17). It is obviously referring, in cryptic terms, to the city of Rome.

2) Eph 5.23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

The Revelation speaks of the wife of the Lamb. Rev 21.9 "One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

3) Gal 4.26 "But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother."

The Revelation speaks of the New Jerusalem.

4) 1 Tim 1.17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen... 6.15 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords."

Paul identified Jesus as the "King of kings," which is also how he is depicted in the Revelation. Rev 17.14 "They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.... 19.16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords."

yes jesus did say he was coming back to get someone ,at that time he was speaking to his apostles, they would be the ones to join him in heaven.
yes there would in time be more that could rightly also be called apostles but that number of them would never be billions or even millions . Matthew 5:5 would allow for a number that could not be counted because there would be so many of them. where are they? here on earth!

 

[RandyK]

yes jesus did say he was coming back to get someone ,at that time he was speaking to his apostles, they would be the ones to join him in heaven.
yes there would in time be more that could rightly also be called apostles but that number of them would never be billions or even millions . Matthew 5:5 would allow for a number that could not be counted because there would be so many of them. where are they? here on earth!

We were talking about how "we" must "all" be presented before Christ's judgment seat. You seem to think some of this was not comprehended by Paul. Now you're talking about how many apostles there were, and about how many will there will be at Christ's Coming, and where they will be? Sorry, this conversation is "all over the place." I'm not sure what we're even talking about?

 

[locust]

if you were to find and read a letter written to someone, telling some other about a family Reunion. it said that we should go?would you assume the letter also applies to you if you are not apart of that family ? the ''we'' does not apply to you?
you would be out of context of ''we''

 

[RandyK]

if you were to find and read a letter written to someone, telling some other about a family Reunion. it said that we should go?would you assume the letter also applies to you if you are not apart of that family ? the ''we'' does not apply to you?
you would be out of context of ''we''

I really don't care how "we" is used in other situations. It's transparent that "we must appear before Christ's judgment seat" means *all.*

1 Cor 3.10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid mthe foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than nthat which is laid, owhich is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day pwill declare it, because qit will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[locust]

I really don't care how "we" is used in other situations. It's transparent that "we must appear before Christ's judgment seat" means *all.*

1 Cor 3.10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid mthe foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than nthat which is laid, owhich is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day pwill declare it, because qit will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

the judgment seat ,where is it ?

 

[RandyK]

the judgment seat ,where is it ?

Does it matter?

 

[reddogs]

how is that inline with Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered+ ones, since they will inherit the earth.?
Obviously someone is going to be here

After the 1000 year millennium the New Jerusalem along with the saints will come down from heaven as we see in Revelation 21.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

After the thousand years, Christ returns to the earth to execute final judgment on the rejecters of His truth, and to take back that which is rightfully His. It is then that the kingdom will be restored to the saints.
The prophet Zechariah describes the coming of the Lord with all His saints, and how the feet of the Lord touch the earth to create a great plain, something that did not happen at the Second Coming.
Zechariah 14:4-5
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Notice closely the text which says, 'and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.' The ancient prophecies made to literal Israel could have had their fulfilment in Israel of old if they had been obedient to God. The old covenant promises were transferred to spiritual Israel when they rejected the Messiah. The essence of the prophecy in Zechariah thus still applies and reaches its final fulfilment in the return of Christ after the millennium.

So after the 1000 year millennium, the New Jerusalem then descends from heaven...
And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2
From the safety of the city, the saints will then witness the final events which will end the great controversy between Christ and Satan. Satan will have had a thousand years to reflect upon the consequences of his actions and the sentence that awaits him.
Revelation 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Satan had been bound when the wicked were slain at the first coming of Christ. The wicked that died would not come to life until a thousand years had expired.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished... Revelation 20:5

The resurrection of the wicked of all ages looses the chains of circumstances which had bound Satan, and he spurns the resurrected millions on to take the Holy City in one final effort to retain power.
Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In Ezekiel 38:2, Gog, the king of Magog is described as an enemy of God's people.
Ezekiel 38:2
Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him

He is described as the leader of the host that would attack restored Israel. but he would meet his end. This would happen "after many days" (Ezekial 38:8) and we see the events..
Ezekiel 38:18-19
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

God destroys Gog and Israel does not battle at all. No historic figure has as yet been identified with Gog, and he stands as a symbol of the leader of rebellion, Satan himself.

God permits this final act of rebellion by Satan and his hosts together with the resurrected wicked to dispel any lingering doubt as to the antipathy of those arraigned against God and His people. Good and evil stand opposite each other. The saints within the city, the wicked without and Satan and the wicked will be destroyed by fire.
...and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone... Revelation 20:9,10
With this final destruction of Satan, the great controversy ends. Satan and his host (Gog and Magog) are destroyed by fire.

 

[reddogs]

Here is a good study on the 1000 year millennium.. https://whitethroneministries.org/resources/lessons/the-millennium-and-the-end-of-sin-1

 

[Oseas]

Emerald said:
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
1 Corinthians 11:23–24

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~~~~~~~~.

Matthew 26:29-30:
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Revelation 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8), saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of GOD was opened in heaven(Ephesians 1:3-8 combined with Philippians 3:20-21), and there was seen in His temple(temple?1Corinthians 3:16-17 combined with 2Corinthians 6:16 and Revelation 21:22): the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Amen

 

[for_his_glory]

yes jesus did say he was coming back to get someone ,at that time he was speaking to his apostles, they would be the ones to join him in heaven.
yes there would in time be more that could rightly also be called apostles but that number of them would never be billions or even millions . Matthew 5:5 would allow for a number that could not be counted because there would be so many of them. where are they? here on earth!

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

This is speaking about all who are Christ own dead or alive, at His coming that will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air when He returns, Matthew 24:29-31. They shall inherit the new Earth the New Jerusalem as the elements of this present Earth will burn up this Earth being prepared for the new Earth and the new Jerusalem, 2 Peter 3:9-13; 10Rev 21.

Do you not think that the New Jerusalem will not contain all that are Christ own here on earth that will be caught up to Him to meet Him in the air, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. Those who are Christ own are those who are Spiritually born again from above indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9-10.

 

[locust]

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

This is speaking about all who are Christ own dead or alive, at His coming that will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air when He returns, Matthew 24:29-31. They shall inherit the new Earth the New Jerusalem as the elements of this present Earth will burn up this Earth being prepared for the new Earth and the new Jerusalem, 2 Peter 3:9-13; 10Rev 21.

Do you not think that the New Jerusalem will not contain all that are Christ own here on earth that will be caught up to Him to meet Him in the air, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. Those who are Christ own are those who are Spiritually born again from above indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9-10.

if you must know .....you really don't know what you are talking about. please stay out of the book Revelation

 

[MisterE]

Hello- The question is if one is to strictly read 1 Thess. 4:13-17 I was wanting to know if there is specifically anything in this text that states the dead in Christ rise to heaven or does it just say they rise to meet the Lord who descends down from heaven...It does not specifically mention the Lord turns around and takes them up to heaven...I am thinking the verse that must show this is that Jesus said if he goes away he will come again and receive us unto himself that where he is there we might be also...I would also like some input on why this seems to be presented in a pre tribulation time frame, when it could just as easily be shown to happen after the tribulation. Thank you

The scholarly way to study this is to first do Systematic Theology before you interpret one passage. For example, GJohn 14:1-3 tells us that we go to the Father's house where Christ has been preparing a dwelling place for each Christian at the Rapture. Or, in Rev 19, Christ and his church will return from heaven to earth. This is how it is possible for the Church to accompany Christ from heaven to earth. The Church is not a part of the Jewish Dispensation.

Here is a chart to show you that the Rapture and the Second Coming are two totally different comings. The PostTrib position is opposed to this chart because it requires the Church to go back to heaven with Christ before the Trib. See point 1. Christ comes FOR his own in the air, whereas this compares to point 1 in the chart below the At the Rapture to At the Second Coming. Christ returns WITH his Church.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[Oseas]

Isaiah 25:7-9 9 And it shall be said in that Day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

 

[locust]

Isaiah 25:7-9 9 And it shall be said in that Day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

yep all those things will be about the earth .

 

[Oseas]

yep all those things will be about the earth .

The time is very near to be elected the next and last Pope, then will begin the process that will culminate with the the beginning of the last week, week 70th of Daniel 9:27.

Get ready

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