Bible Study Rapture

[for_his_glory]

JLB, You told that God had given you the mystery of the resurrection and His second coming...You should be able to answer those question to satisfy yourself? But to how I have been taught is We will be with the Lord during the Tribulation is answered by (Rev. 4:1-4; 20:4-6) This describes the Church (White robes, Crowns, Given judgment and Elders.

I think you got JLB and me mixed up. Here I will give the full of Rev 4:1-4 that has nothing to do with a pretrib Rapture.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev 4:1-4

Instructions to the seven Churches have been issued for edification and warnings of Gods chastisements and now John sees a vision of a door opening before him. The first voice he heard speaking to him was that of great power and authority similar to the powerful sound a trumpet makes. The voice tells John to draw in closer to Gods Spirit to see the visions of those things that are yet future.

After hearing this voice John was immediately immersed in the Holy Spirit and saw a throne was set in heaven and the Lord sat on it, Isaiah 6:1. God was being compared to a jasper and a sardine stone in all their splendor and beauty. On the Ephod that the Priest wore there were four rows of various stones that represented the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob. The first stone was jasper representing Reuben being the first born and a sardine stone as being Benjamin the last son to be born. God is represented like these stones in vs. 3 as being the first and last as in Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

All the stones in between the jasper and sardine are those of Gods covenant he made with faithful Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 that have remained faithful and have endured all persecutions even to death that sleep in the grave, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. There are yet many that even now and up to the time of Jesus returning in the clouds for his Bride that will die a martyr’s death in that which will come hereafter as John sees in his vision.

The rainbow round about the throne of God is his covenant promise he made with Noah in Genesis 9:1-13 that from henceforth God will never destroy this earth with an actual flood, but the flood or power of Gods wrath during the seven trumpet sounds will either cause many to repent and have eternal life with the Father or be cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet. The rainbow is also described as being emerald that is green in color which symbolizes that same covenant God made with Noah is also for all who are living and growing spiritually as they remain grounded in faith that is Christ Jesus no matter what comes against them.

John now sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as Gods witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.

 

[JLB]

I agree as these questions I asked are for all those pretrib teachers that do not believe this.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

JLB, You told that God had given you the mystery of the resurrection and His second coming...

Yes through the scriptures that plainly teach this very Elementary subject.

There really is no mystery about when these things will happen.

The mystery Paul revealed was that not everyone will die. We all will be changed, but not everyone will die.

It’s no longer a mystery, because Paul revealed this is by the Spirit in the Bible.

The scriptures plainly and clearly that the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the antichrist will occur at His coming.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

show scriptures that says a born again child of GOD will be here for the 7 year tribulation and will die. sorry can not agree with that.. just a note the church is no longer mentioned after chapter 3 .. not being disrespectful but your opening remark makes no sense
. If the pretrib Rapture is true where are we to be kept during the seven trumpets of God's great wrath being poured out into the world? if he takes us out of here we sure wont be here .
let me restate what i said in my o.p you claimed pre trib preaching was ear tickling..i said that is not a correct statement simply due to the fact ear tickling is false watered down teaching... i also told you that i am in between pre and mid trib . i can not agree with the church the body of Christ those who are Born again washed in the Blood .facing the wrath of God .the Bible says
Romans 1:18-32 King James Version (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
he then gives description of those facing his wrath




28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. ( that is not Grace }



3. Why does scripture say in John 6:40 and Rev 19:11-21 that Jesus returns on the last day as at that time He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire at the end of the seventh trumpet.
Jesus takes his Church out out then the tribulation period of 7 years... we simply do not know his time line a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years..not so sure God operates on our calendar of time ! Jesus takes us out then returns again in wrath .us returning the battle of Armageddon is another subject how ever events take place i aint going to be here to face his wrath
< prepared us a place in the wilderness to flee to before the 3 1/2 year reign of the beast> i have heard so i thought about every type teaching this is new .
question back to you after reading your scripture where is this wilderness and what is it.. john is speaking in symbolism all we know is a place prepared by God . it could be a type Goshen .but up until the twelve plagues on Egypt there was tribulation after the new king did not care of the tribes of Israel .

your welcome to your belief.but a child of God facing God wrath is not GRACE . I READ PROPHECY but i am not a prophecy student .. so i dont really debate end time events other than what i do know

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in the Holy place which is our faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the revived Roman Empire (mystery Babylon) ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destrpys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[for_his_glory]

very seldom will 2 people agree on the end times pre trib mid trib or after tribulation depends on who you ask

It does depend on who you ask as to what answers you will get, but not all answers are scriptural as many try to read into scripture that which is simply not there. This is why I personally took it upon myself through much prayer and the Holy Spirit guiding me to start studying Revelations and all the cross references in the OT and NT and history, because what I was being taught by all these pretrib teachers never lined up with the full context of all scriptures.

These teachers led me to believe I had no understanding of what they taught and they were right because what they teach has no understanding for none of it is scriptural, but only a band wagon type teaching that started in the 17th and 18th century with men like Morgan Edwards, John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis with their own viewpoints and interpretations.

 

[for_his_glory]

so then explain those who think we go through the tribulation i personally believe we will be took out ahead of.

Ezra, JLB and myself have explained and given many scriptures as it is not that of what we believe they say, but that which is already written is that of what we believe. God's wrath being poured out into the world during the seven trumpets sounding has nothing to do with us who are of Christ, but only affects those who reject Christ in hopes that by chastising those of disobedience they will repent and turn back to God before the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Christ returns. In Matthew 24:15 and Rev 12:6 the holy place that God has prepared for us in the wilderness for His Bride who are still alive at this time during the events of Rev 13 is a place of a greater faith in Christ who has always supplied our needs, Philippians 4:19, as we are to flee away from the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7, and not take its mark. There are two types of faith as one is the I believe, but has no trust and will never be an overcomer and the other is I believe and trust you Lord in all things no matter what I will overcome.

 

[Jim Parker]

The last half of the tribulation will last 3 1/2 years, Rev 12:1-6 with the oppression of the elect of God that are still alive at this time.

There are many ways to interpret the apocalyptic, ecstatic visions of which John has done his best to render into human language. I, personally, am very hesitant to say that any particular understanding is "absolutely correct."

There is only one coming of Christ who at that time on the last day at the end of the last 3 1/2 years destroys the beast and the false prophet at His coming, Rev 19. During that time all who are in the grave (sinner and elect of God) will hear the voice of Christ to rise, John 5:28, 29.

I agree with everything but "at the end of the 3 1/2 days." Again the language of the Apocalypse is highly symbolic an I believe we are probably giving too much precision to symbolic language.

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

There are many ways to interpret the apocalyptic, ecstatic visions of which John has done his best to render into human language. I, personally, am very hesitant to say that any particular understanding is "absolutely correct."

my point exactly i have yet to argue one way or the other.. my whole point which has been ignored is timeline of events. is a year with GOD the same as our year ? i kind of doubt it

 

[JLB]

There are many ways to interpret the apocalyptic, ecstatic visions of which John has done his best to render into human language. I, personally, am very hesitant to say that any particular understanding is "absolutely correct."

If we don't understand the simple plain words of Paul, about the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture of the Church and the destruction of the wicked, then we have no business trying to interpret and teach the writings in revelation.


Jesus said it this way -

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12



JLB

 

[ezra]

Ezra, JLB and myself have explained and given many scriptures as it is not that of what we believe they say, but that which is already written is that of what we believe. God's wrath being poured out into the world during the seven trumpets sounding has nothing to do with us who are of Christ, but only affects those who reject Christ in hopes that by chastising those of disobedience they will repent and turn back to God before the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Christ returns. In Matthew 24:15 and Rev 12:6 the holy place that God has prepared for us in the wilderness for His Bride who are still alive at this time during the events of Rev 13 is a place of a greater faith in Christ who has always supplied our needs, Philippians 4:19, as we are to flee away from the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7, and not take its mark. There are two types of faith as one is the I believe, but has no trust and will never be an overcomer and the other is I believe and trust you Lord in all things no matter what I will overcome.

i have told you your welcome to your belief and i am not going to say your wrong i am right.. what i will say is i disguise. i asked what and where the wilderness is? much of this is symbolic.. i can not agree us being shuffled off to some place on earth . while the wrath of God is poured out . God will take us out of here and then his wrath will be poured out on those LEFT BEHIND . WHEN THE CHURCH IS TAKEN OUT..THERE WILL BE NO holy SPIRIT FOR HE DWELL IN EACH ONE OF US WHO ARE SAVED . pardon the caps i hit them as i was typing... so i am not shouting . its like a buddy and me agree on there are things i simply do not believe the way he does.. i can not change him nor can he change me ,the Holy Spirit HAS THAT JOB.. so we find the things we have in common Jesus save Jesus way truth life. we must be born again we must also repent . a former pastor of mine who has been in the ministry over 50 years. will take the book of Revelations and explain it in a way that will make you cross eyed .

 

[JLB]

my point exactly i have yet to argue one way or the other.. my whole point which has been ignored is timeline of events. is a year with GOD the same as our year ? i kind of doubt it

It is plain and clear these three things occur at His coming:

1. The Resurrection - [the dead in Christ will rise first.]
2. The Rapture - [Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them]
3. The destruction of the antichrist - [destroy with the brightness of His coming.]

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



JLB

 

[ezra]

If we don't understand the simple plain words of Paul, about the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture of the Church and the destruction of the wicked, then we have no business trying to interpret and teach the writings in revelation.


Jesus said it this way -

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12



JLB

once again your dealing with interpretation . many fully understand the simple words of Paul . this is the point i keep trying to make interpretation much like the debate osas/ osnas who is right who is wrong depends on who you ask

 

[JLB]

God will take us out of here and then his wrath will be poured out on those LEFT BEHIND

The place He takes us to is in the air, above the earth, then He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This occurs at His coming. This is the Day of the Lord.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



JLB

 

[JLB]

once again your dealing with interpretation . many fully understand the simple words of Paul . this is the point i keep trying to make interpretation much like the debate osas/ osnas who is right who is wrong depends on who you ask

No need to interpret anything, just read what is so plainly written.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

1. The Resurrection - [the dead in Christ will rise first.]
2. The Rapture - [Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them]
3. The destruction of the antichrist - [destroy with the brightness of His coming.]

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

 

[ezra]

It does depend on who you ask as to what answers you will get, but not all answers are scriptural as many try to read into scripture that which is simply not there. This is why I personally took it upon myself through much prayer and the Holy Spirit guiding me to start studying Revelations and all the cross references in the OT and NT and history, because what I was being taught by all these pretrib teachers never lined up with the full context of all scriptures.

These teachers led me to believe I had no understanding of what they taught and they were right because what they teach has no understanding for none of it is scriptural, but only a band wagon type teaching that started in the 17th and 18th century with men like Morgan Edwards, John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis with their own viewpoints and interpretations.

this is the %100 true correct way to study your pretrib base just one part the church is no longer mentioned after chapter 3 . men like D,R David Jeremiah D.R James Merritt are pre trib my guess is Charles Stanley also these men all hold doctors degree, . my self in between pre and mid... but mainly just be ready might i add Scofield is very good

 

[ezra]

No need to interpret anything, just read what is so plainly written.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

1. The Resurrection - [the dead in Christ will rise first.]
2. The Rapture - [Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them]
3. The destruction of the antichrist - [destroy with the brightness of His coming.]

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

ok jlb i have use respect with you belief and have even told you i agree with scripture.... i hate to be this way..no disrespect.but it appears as your post is saying your right i am wrong

 

[ezra]

The place He takes us to is in the air, above the earth, then He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.

i agree and that aint no wilderness

 

[Jim Parker]

If we don't understand the simple plain words of Paul, about the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture of the Church and the destruction of the wicked, then we have no business trying to interpret and teach the writings in revelation.
Jesus said it this way -
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
JLB

Eggs Ackley

We have Jesus very clear words:
Mat 25:31-32 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."

Thereafter follows Jesus explicit description of the Judgement of mankind. (Mat 25:33-46)

Mat 24:30-31“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mar 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven."

So; After the tribulation, the "Son of Man" will come in clouds of glory.
He will gather all nations before Him.
He will gather the elect before him.
He will judge the living and the dead.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

who is right who is wrong depends on who you ask

We have better sources than the opinions of who we ask.
The apostolic teaching of the ancient church is, IMO, the best "who" to ask.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

ok jlb i have use respect with you belief and have even told you i agree with scripture.... i hate to be this way..no disrespect.but it appears as your post is saying your right i am wrong

I'm asking you to simply read what the scripture says.

Personally, I am not aware of any position you have taken, so I couldn't possibly begin to say if you are right or wrong.

I only desire to point out to you, things that the scriptures say.


Could we start with just one thing the scripture says about this doctrine?


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Can you agree that at the coming of the Lord, the resurrection takes place?



JLB