Re: The Day of the Lord!

[Quasar]

Hi friends,

To illustrate the facts pertaining to the Day of the Lord, the first place to look is in Dan.9:27, where God has conveyed a 490 year prophecy in terms of a 70 'week' period of time.

The text in Dan.9:27 reveals it to be the 70th and final 'week' of the prophecy, meaning a 7 year period of time, first referred to in Jer.30:7 as 'Jacob's Trouble,' or what we call, the tribulation.

Note, first of all, the 'he,' who 'confirms a covenant with many,' in Dan. 9:27 - is the same person described by the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:3 and 8, as the man of sin/lawlessness/wicked one - or, the antichrist. And is also the second 'he,' in Dan.9:27 who sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus refers to in Mt.24:15.

Second, is the fact that 'he,' whom we have established as the antichrist from the above, kicks off God's timetable that is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble, or the Day of the Lord. This is the same person who is seen in the very first, of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2, the rider on the white horse, who triggers the tribulation. [Not to be confused with the Rider on the white horse in Rev.19:14, who is Jesus Christ, who finishes the tribulation].

Third, it is at this point in time the Day of the Lord begins, from the text of Paul's 2nd epistle to the Thessalonicans, who were very concerned that Jesus had already come to rapture His Church, that Paul had taught them about in his 1st epistle, of which they were a part of, and they had been left behind to go through the tribulation.

Someone had sent them a letter over Paul's forged signature that the Day of the Lord had already come. Meaning, the tribulation, or the 70th and final 'week' of Daniel's prophecy had begun and they had not been raptured with the rest of the Church.

[THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN THE DAY OF THE LORD BEGINS].

Fourth, so Paul's statement to them was, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS ALREADY COME." 2 Thes.2:1-2.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of the tribulation.

In verse 3, Paul continues, "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the departure [The rapture of the Church] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

According to the Scriptures, it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace, before the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, and the most horrible conditions the world has ever known will take place. Mt.24:21 and 1 Thes.5:3.

As Jesus said in Mt.24:6-8, there will be wars, rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, earthquakes in various places, all of which are the beginnings of birth pangs, but the end is still to come. Therefore, it would seem, the six seals consisting of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is a parenthetic of the entire tribulation, which would begin at the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpet plagues.

In His love.

Quasar

 

[lecoop]

Hi friends,

To illustrate the facts pertaining to the Day of the Lord, the first place to look is in Dan.9:27, where God has conveyed a 490 year prophecy in terms of a 70 'week' period of time.

The text in Dan.9:27 reveals it to be the 70th and final 'week' of the prophecy, meaning a 7 year period of time, first referred to in Jer.30:7 as 'Jacob's Trouble,' or what we call, the tribulation.

Note, first of all, the 'he,' who 'confirms a covenant with many,' in Dan. 9:27 - is the same person described by the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:3 and 8, as the man of sin/lawlessness/wicked one - or, the antichrist. And is also the second 'he,' in Dan.9:27 who sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus refers to in Mt.24:15.

Second, is the fact that 'he,' whom we have established as the antichrist from the above, kicks off God's timetable that is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble, or the Day of the Lord. This is the same person who is seen in the very first, of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2, the rider on the white horse, who triggers the tribulation. [Not to be confused with the Rider on the white horse in Rev.19:14, who is Jesus Christ, who finishes the tribulation].

Third, it is at this point in time the Day of the Lord begins, from the text of Paul's 2nd epistle to the Thessalonicans, who were very concerned that Jesus had already come to rapture His Church, that Paul had taught them about in his 1st epistle, of which they were a part of, and they had been left behind to go through the tribulation.

Someone had sent them a letter over Paul's forged signature that the Day of the Lord had already come. Meaning, the tribulation, or the 70th and final 'week' of Daniel's prophecy had begun and they had not been raptured with the rest of the Church.

[THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN THE DAY OF THE LORD BEGINS].

Fourth, so Paul's statement to them was, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS ALREADY COME." 2 Thes.2:1-2.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of the tribulation.

In verse 3, Paul continues, "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the departure [The rapture of the Church] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

According to the Scriptures, it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace, before the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, and the most horrible conditions the world has ever known will take place. Mt.24:21 and 1 Thes.5:3.

As Jesus said in Mt.24:6-8, there will be wars, rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, earthquakes in various places, all of which are the beginnings of birth pangs, but the end is still to come. Therefore, it would seem, the six seals consisting of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is a parenthetic of the entire tribulation, which would begin at the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpet plagues.

In His love.

Quasar

There can be no doubt that the day of the Lord will start with the 7th seal, because of the prophecy of Joel, and the cosmic signs at the 6th seal.

However, you are about a mile off (and 2000 years) when you try to fit the first five seals into this end time scenario. Please consider that it was about 33 AD when Jesus was ask about the future. Again, there can be no question that Jesus did not start with the far distant future, i.e., the end times, but rather started with right then, in 33 AD, and included some events of the coming holocaust of 70 AD: the destruction of the temple. It was when Titus's armies surrounded Jerusalem, and then withdrew for a time, that the Christians, remembering what Jesus had said, escaped the city, and escaped death! So Jesus brief summary of the end times included the time of then, 33 AD and covered the next 2000 years. Please notice His phrases and timing words: bolded for emphasis:

Matthew 24
6 and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 `For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows;
9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;
10 and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

Did you notice the "then?" Jesus has not yet left the time that is now history to us. Then notice that verse 7 starts with "for." Jesus has not yet left speaking of " the end is not yet." So the "nations rising agaist nations" is history, and not an end time thing. The famimes and pestilences, the earthquakes, in fact the "beginnings of sorrows" are all NOT part of the end, according to Jesus! One just cannot, with good biblical exegesis, say that these verses are about the 70th week, still in our future. When Jesus gets to the abomination, then we can know without a doubt that he is speaking of the 70th week.

Many people have noticed the similarities between the second, third, and fouth seals, and this part of the Olivet discourse, and indeed, there is similarities. However, in the discourse, Jesus says that he is just not speaking of the time of the end yet. He does that when He mentions the abomination. We can look at both these verses in the discourse, and the deeds of these horsemen (leaveing out # 1) and we can readily see that these events are history to us now.

Add this this the fact that there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future, and then take the context of the first seals, which shows that they are broken when Jesus rose from the dead, and it should be clear to even an average reader that these events of the seals are in our past. We are waiting on the sixth seal, which will be the warning of the beginning of the 70th week and the day of the Lord. And of course, we are waiting on the rapture of the church that will take place at this same time!

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

I agree with what Quasar says below:

According to the Scriptures, it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace, before the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, and the most horrible conditions the world has ever known will take place. Mt.24:21 and 1 Thes.5:3.

Because of this, I struggle big time with the notion that this event below is at the beginning of the week:

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

This is why I see the Great Tribulation beginning at midweek. These events (the trumpets) sound a lot like God avenging what antichrist does to believers during the GT (Revelation 6:10-11), which lasts only a short time, because He "cuts short" the duration of the GT. Satan was barely a match for Michael and his army of Angels. What chance does Satan stand persecuting believers while God is unleashing HIS Wrath against Satan and his followers?

In Matthew 24, Jesus shows us that the GT follows the abomination of desolation. It is my belief that this happens right after the A of D. Since the Jews (not Christians) are fleeing (Matthew 24:16-20, Revelation 12:14) who is left besides an unbelieving group?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe this remnant to be the ones in Christ.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This could only be speaking of those in Christ, since they are the only ones who are in His Name and is in harmony with Rev 12:17.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is self-explanatory; Judea. It is the Jews who will be fleeing. In harmony with Rev 12:14.

I'm not into partial preterism, so I don't believe the seals are historic events. If Jesus jumps ahead to the A of D, which we agree is midweek, why would He skip the first half of the week? My belief is He doesn't.

The bottom line is this: we can't have Satan's wrath against the believers going on at the same as 1) the false time of peace and 2) God's Wrath. That is the equivelant of the Invasion of Granada. Satan wouldn't stand a chance. God allows Satan's wrath to go untethered until HE cuts it short. None of this happens until the second half of the week is underway. The GT must precede God's wrath.

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

I agree with what Quasar says below:

According to the Scriptures, it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace, before the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, and the most horrible conditions the world has ever known will take place. Mt.24:21 and 1 Thes.5:3.

Because of this, I struggle big time with the notion that this event below is at the beginning of the week:

[quote:59a32]Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

This is why I see the Great Tribulation beginning at midweek. These events (the trumpets) sound a lot like God avenging what antichrist does to believers during the GT (Revelation 6:10-11), which lasts only a short time, because He "cuts short" the duration of the GT. Satan was barely a match for Michael and his army of Angels. What chance does Satan stand persecuting believers while God is unleashing HIS Wrath against Satan and his followers?

In Matthew 24, Jesus shows us that the GT follows the abomination of desolation. It is my belief that this happens right after the A of D. Since the Jews (not Christians) are fleeing (Matthew 24:16-20, Revelation 12:14) who is left besides an unbelieving group?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe this remnant to be the ones in Christ.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This could only be speaking of those in Christ, since they are the only ones who are in His Name and is in harmony with Rev 12:17.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is self-explanatory; Judea. It is the Jews who will be fleeing. In harmony with Rev 12:14.

I'm not into partial preterism, so I don't believe the seals are historic events. If Jesus jumps ahead to the A of D, which we agree is midweek, why would He skip the first half of the week? My belief is He doesn't.

The bottom line is this: we can't have Satan's wrath against the believers going on at the same as 1) the false time of peace and 2) God's Wrath. That is the equivelant of the Invasion of Granada. Satan wouldn't stand a chance. God allows Satan's wrath to go untethered until HE cuts it short. None of this happens until the second half of the week is underway. The GT must precede God's wrath.[/quote:59a32]



That the 70 WEEKS of Daniel are called the tribulation with the final 3.5 years of them called the Great Tribulation is right on the mark.

As for Rev.12:17, pertaining to the dragon being enraged at the woman and going off to make war against her offspring, is Israel, not the Church. Remember the sign of the Son of Man, in Rev.12:1-2; she has a crown of twelve stars, representing the twelve tribes of Israel. She re0presents the virgin Mary and the baby she is carrying, Jesus Christ, who was born on September 11, 3 A.D., at around 6:30/7 P.M. according to Dr. Ernest L. Martin, PhD., in his book, "The Star that Startled the World.

http://www.askelm.com/books/book003.htm

All the saints of the tribulation will be saved by the 144,000 evangelists God places on the earth from heaven, whom He redeemed from the earth. [See my thread, 'Who are the 144,000,' for a full explanation.

The 144,000 will be placed on the earth just before the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet judgements to take the place of the raptured Church, to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left here on earth after the rapture, just preceding the revealing of the Antichrist, who triggers the tribulation. The Great Multitude of Rev.7:9-17 [Parenthetic view] represents
all the martyred tribulation saints who will participate in the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4-6.

No one from the Church will be in the tribulation at any point.

Blessings,

Quasar[/url]

 

[Vic C.]

As for Rev.12:17, pertaining to the dragon being enraged at the woman and going off to make war against her offspring, is Israel, not the Church. Remember the sign of the Son of Man, in Rev.12:1-2; she has a crown of twelve stars, representing the twelve tribes of Israel. She re0presents the virgin Mary and the baby she is carrying, Jesus Christ, who was born on September 11, 3 A.D., at around 6:30/7 P.M. according to Dr. Ernest L. Martin, PhD., in his book, "The Star that Startled the World.

Hey Q, whar does ELM have to do with this? 8-)

The woman in Rev 12 is Israel. I'm sure you are familiar with Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10. Joseph's father, Israel, would be the sun , Rachel, his mom is the moom and (moon), his eleven brothers are the stars, with Joseph being the 12th. star. As you are aware, they represent the original 12 tribes of Israel. No Mary. See also Genesis 3:15


Now lets look at verse 17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It doesn't say "her offspring". It says the remnant of her seed. That is one degree away from seed or offspring. The seed of the woman is the child in Rev 12:5, which is Jesus. The remnant of that child is none other than His ekklesia.

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

As for Rev.12:17, pertaining to the dragon being enraged at the woman and going off to make war against her offspring, is Israel, not the Church. Remember the sign of the Son of Man, in Rev.12:1-2; she has a crown of twelve stars, representing the twelve tribes of Israel. She re0presents the virgin Mary and the baby she is carrying, Jesus Christ, who was born on September 11, 3 A.D., at around 6:30/7 P.M. according to Dr. Ernest L. Martin, PhD., in his book, "The Star that Startled the World.

Hey Q, whar does ELM have to do with this? 8-)

The woman in Rev 12 is Israel. I'm sure you are familiar with Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10. Joseph's father, Israel, would be the sun , Rachel, his mom is the moom and (moon), his eleven brothers are the stars, with Joseph being the 12th. star. As you are aware, they represent the original 12 tribes of Israel. No Mary. See also Genesis 3:15


Now lets look at verse 17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It doesn't say "her offspring". It says the remnant of her seed. That is one degree away from seed or offspring. The seed of the woman is the child in Rev 12:5, which is Jesus. The remnant of that child is none other than His ekklesia.

ELM has to do with support for what I posted, and is far more extensive than the info on my post.

No, my son, the woman travailing in birth pangs represents the virgin birth, and is Mary, about to give birth to Jesus. And it is called, 'The Gospel in the Sky.' Rev.12:1-2 has nothing at all to do with Joseph's dream in Gen.37:9-10. There is only one virgin birth known to us and she was Mary. The twelve star crown represents the twelve tribes of Israel. See vs 5.

There is only one time in the entire year, the moon [A crescent] arises at the time the sun sets in the middle east. It is in the fall of the year, every year, around the Jewish Holy Day, Rosh Hashana, their New Year, and the day they call, the Day of New Beginnings, which they believe is the very time when God created Adam. They also call it, the Day of Trumpets.

A group of astronomers, that Dr. Martin was then a member of, together with other scientists retrogressed the heavenly bodies by computer, with the primary purpose of determining what the Star of Bethlehem was. [Another subject which I will not go into on this thread]. In so doing, they discovered the 'Gospel in the Sky.' Which represents the exact time Jesus was born, right down to within a thirty minute window, with the sun and the moon, the earth and all the heavenly bodies in mothion, to catch the sun in the center of the woman's body and the moon at her feet.

The woman is in the Constellation, Virgo [The virgin], with her head about 10% into the Constellation Leo [The Lion of Judah], and her feet about 10% into the Constellation Libra [The Scales of Righteousness and Judgement].

When Jesus told His disciples, in His ministry to Israel, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky..." [Mt.24:30], He revealed what time of year, He will make His Second Advent to the earth. Sometime about the time of the Jewish Holy Day, Rosh Hashana, or around mid September to the thirtieth [Sometimes even into October].


A copy of Dr. Martin's book is money well worth spending as it has so much worthy Christian history in it as well.


You allude to what your Bible renders in its text of Rev.12:17 [NIV], but fail to give thought to the fact all Bibles do not render the text in all given passages in the same way. Which is the case of 'offspring' vs 'remnant' [KJV] and 'rest of her children' [NASB], that I can find nothing to get into any discussion over. I think everyone understands that the text means 'Israel.'

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

I see it differently than you. I see Joseph's dream as being significant to Rev 12, as well as Genesis 3:15. Also, Rev 12:14 gives us a good clue as to who the Woman is with the "a time, and times, and half a time, statement. This is the aprox. time of the Great Trib and God's wrath... the second half of the final week.

If I may ask two questions concerning Rev 12:17

First off, do we both agree the woman in Rev 12:17 is the same as in Rev 12:1-2? If we do, here are my questions:

How can the Woman be Mary and the seed (or offspring) be Israel?

The last part of the verse says, "...and having the testimony of Jesus Christ." When did Israel have the testiminy of Christ?

There is only one time in the entire year, the moon [A crescent] arises at the time the sun sets in the middle east. It is in the fall of the year, every year, around the Jewish Holy Day, Rosh Hashana, their New Year, and the day they call, the Day of New Beginnings, which they believe is the very time when God created Adam. They also call it, the Day of Trumpets.

This information is wrong. Rosh Hashana starts at the New Moon, not a cresent moon, as does the first of each month. You got the wrong religion. :wink: Needless to say, Rosh Hashana starts at the first of the month.

They celebrate the entire Creation, not just the creation of Adam. Also, it is called the Feast of Trumpets, not the day of trumpets. Rosh Hashana was/is typically a two day occurrence for the Orthodox Jew. It is also the time when they "memorialize" their dead.


Oh, about ELM. Yo do know he believed in Universal Reconciliation. The URs see PreTribulation rapture, futurism, dispensationalism, etc. as fallacies or fairy tales. Just thought you should know that in case you start quoting from the Concordant Bible. ;-)

 

[John the Baptist]

Deleated (moved)
---John

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

I see it differently than you. I see Joseph's dream as being significant to Rev 12, as well as Genesis 3:15. Also, Rev 12:14 gives us a good clue as to who the Woman is with the "a time, and times, and half a time, statement. This is the aprox. time of the Great Trib and God's wrath... the second half of the final week.

If I may ask two questions concerning Rev 12:17

First off, do we both agree the woman in Rev 12:17 is the same as in Rev 12:1-2? If we do, here are my questions:

How can the Woman be Mary and the seed (or offspring) be Israel?

The last part of the verse says, "...and having the testimony of Jesus Christ." When did Israel have the testiminy of Christ?

There is only one time in the entire year, the moon [A crescent] arises at the time the sun sets in the middle east. It is in the fall of the year, every year, around the Jewish Holy Day, Rosh Hashana, their New Year, and the day they call, the Day of New Beginnings, which they believe is the very time when God created Adam. They also call it, the Day of Trumpets.

This information is wrong. Rosh Hashana starts at the New Moon, not a cresent moon, as does the first of each month. You got the wrong religion. :wink: Needless to say, Rosh Hashana starts at the first of the month.

They celebrate the entire Creation, not just the creation of Adam. Also, it is called the Feast of Trumpets, not the day of trumpets. Rosh Hashana was/is typically a two day occurrence for the Orthodox Jew. It is also the time when they "memorialize" their dead.


Oh, about ELM. Yo do know he believed in Universal Reconciliation. The URs see PreTribulation rapture, futurism, dispensationalism, etc. as fallacies or fairy tales. Just thought you should know that in case you start quoting from the Concordant Bible. ;-)

Joseph's dream of Gen.37:9-10 was fulfilled in Gen.43:26 and has nothing at all to do with Rev.12. You are seeing Joseph as a type of Christ, in which we are in agreement. I will accept your belief in the fulfillment of the Gen.37:10 in Rev.12:1, being fulfilled in the person of the baby Jesus about to be born, in which the sun, moon and stars paid obiescance to Him, not to Joseph, the type of Christ, not to Israel.

Gen. 3:15, in reference to the seed of the woman is none other than Jesus Christ, not Israel. The same as Isa.7:14. As for Rev.12:14, the text is clear, the woman is depicted as Israel who will fly on two wings of an eagle to a place prepared for her in the desert, where she will be taken care of for 3.5 years.

However, the woman in Rev.12:1-2 is none other than the virgin Mary, about to give birth to the baby Jesus. In vs 5 is written, "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to His throne."

Then in vs 6, the woman represents Israel, as does vs 14, but in vs 6, the 3.5 years is recorded as 1,260 days. In connection with Rev.12:17, the woman is seen as Israel. If that's how you see it, we're on the same page. Mary isn't the 'seed,' in Gen.3:15, the seed of the woman in that specific case is Jesus. However, Mary did have a number of other children, whom could all be considered as her seed, as in Mt.13:55-56.

In Rev.12:17, "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus...." Yes, there will be a Great Multitude saved, through the efforts of the 144,000 'evangelists' during the tribulation, as seen in Rev.7:9-17, and they are also called saints, though martyred.


Come on, Vic, let's not get dogmatic about what the moon looks like when it is 'new,' as you know very well it is a crescent shape then, which is what I said, and is not worth any further discussion. Rosh Hashana begins on the first day of the month of Tishri [Or Ethanim, our equivalent to September-October], their seventh month of the year. Your allegations that my information is false, is nothing more than your opinion.

Yes, I am very much aware of who Dr. Martin is and have a great deal of his material from a number of years back. He was an astronomer and has oustanding scientific knowledge which I respect him for. That his religious beliefs do not coincide with mine and that he originally came out of the Armstrong camp, Seventh Day Adventism, my eschatology does not agree with his, but do in connection with his ancient Christian historical and scientific knowledge.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

In Rev.12:17, "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus...." Yes, there will be a Great Multitude saved, through the efforts of the 144,000 'evangelists' during the tribulation, as seen in Rev.7:9-17, and they are also called saints, though martyred.

I understand it differently than you. I see the 144,000 as aiding and witnessing to those in Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

4 And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent's face.

I believe they who nourish her are the 144,000; the 12 stars in Rev 12:1.

Come on, Vic, let's not get dogmatic about what the moon looks like when it is 'new,' as you know very well it is a crescent shape then, which is what I said, and is not worth any further discussion. Rosh Hashana begins on the first day of the month of Tishri [Or Ethanim, our equivalent to September-October], their seventh month of the year. Your allegations that my information is false, is nothing more than your opinion.

Not opinion at all. I'm not trying to be dogmatic. I do know very well what a New Moon looks like, or should I say, doesn't look like, since it can't be seen. They watched the moon each night until every bit of it's light was gone. Then, they knew when to start the feast.

NEW MOON
The new moon is the phase of the moon when the moon is not visible from Earth, because the side of the moon that is facing us is not being lit by the sun.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjec ... ases.shtml

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said

it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace,

Vic said about that,

Because of this, I struggle big time with the notion that this event below is at the beginning of the week:

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

There is one place that we do find what the antichrist will be doing in the first 3 1/2 years. Notice Dan 12:1

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time.


There can be no doubt that the time Daniel is referring to is at the midpoint of the week, and slightly after. Michael stands up, because he is just about to have a war with the dragon and his fallen angels! John tells us that this happens just after the midpoint. Now, what does Daniel say just before this verse?

Dan 11
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and overflow and pass through.
41 And he shall enter into the land of beauty, and many [countries] shall be overthrown; but these shall escape out of his hand: Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 And he shall stretch forth his hand upon the countries; and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 And he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him; and he shall go forth with great fury to exterminate, and utterly to destroy many.

Because of verse one telling us of the midpoint, these verses tell us what will be just before the midpoint, in my opinion. sorry, but this just does not sound like peace to me. It may be that there will be a while of peace between the antichrist and Israel, but this says nothing of the rest of the mid-east.

I personally would like to see scriptures pointing to this alledged peace.

Vic said,

This is why I see the Great Tribulation beginning at midweek. These events (the trumpets) sound a lot like God avenging what antichrist does to believers during the GT (Revelation 6:10-11), which lasts only a short time, because He "cuts short" the duration of the GT. Satan was barely a match for Michael and his army of Angels. What chance does Satan stand persecuting believers while God is unleashing HIS Wrath against Satan and his followers?

In Matthew 24, Jesus shows us that the GT follows the abomination of desolation. It is my belief that this happens right after the A of D. Since the Jews (not Christians) are fleeing (Matthew 24:16-20, Revelation 12:14) who is left besides an unbelieving group?

How can you say this? If you compare the trumpets with the vials, it seems much more likely that the trumpets are like warnings to see of men repent, with 1/3 distruction, while the vials are filled with wrath, because men did not repent. It is the vials that are the "avenging."

You said, "What chance does Satan stand persecuting believers while God is unleashing HIS Wrath against Satan and his followers?" This is EXACTLY my argument! : -)) Now we are in agreement? : -)))) As I have said, it is the vials that "shorten" the days of the persecution of the beast, with the wrath of the dragon behind him. You are right! The beast is no match, and so the persecution decreases with each vial, until at the last one, he and his armies cannot perform any kind of persecution, so they gather to fight with God himself at the great battle of Armageddon! We see the preparations for this with the 6th vial.

I agree that this intense persection comes right after the abomination. According to Jesus, seconds after! There is no time to do anything but run! The Christians do not live in Jerusalem! Of course they will not flee into the Judean wilderness! But there will be people around the world turning to God. Remember the messages of the three angels that will go out before the beast has a chance to set up his mark.

Where do we see the "fleeing" in Revelation? It is in the midpoint intermission, and it is right after chapter 11, where the 7th trumpet is sounded. Please try to read this in John's chronology! It makes perfect sense. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the abomination event comes right after that (not shown by John). Then at that same time, the Jews flee (chapter 12). If we see that the 6th vial is the preparation for the battle of Armegeddon, then it should be obvious that it is the vials that are poured out during the intense persection. So where then, do the trumpets fit? Right where John puts them: in the first 3 1/2 years. By the way, the trumpets do not spell war, unless it is between God and man!

Mathew 24:9, Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

When does this time refer to? Jesus said it was a time before the end: "the end is not yet." Luke says it is, "But before all these." In fact, this is surely referring to the Jewish church. Many were put to death. Jesus mentioned synagogues in Mark 13, and in Luke 21. And Jesus was speaking of the Jews very near future from AD 33.

Vic said,

I'm not into partial preterism, so I don't believe the seals are historic events. If Jesus jumps ahead to the A of D, which we agree is midweek, why would He skip the first half of the week? My belief is He doesn't.

I believe he does skip it, for this simple reason that, on earth, it will be so discrete that most will not even know it happened. For those that are not raptured, and have some understanding of the bible, they will see the temple suddenly rise up. That may be the only indication that some agreement has been signed.

Vic said,

The bottom line is this: we can't have Satan's wrath against the believers going on at the same as 1) the false time of peace and 2) God's Wrath. That is the equivelant of the Invasion of Granada. Satan wouldn't stand a chance. God allows Satan's wrath to go untethered until HE cuts it short. None of this happens until the second half of the week is underway. The GT must precede God's wrath.

SAtan's wrath takes place at and after the midpoint when he is cast down from heaven. This will be very shortly before the abomination event, for the dragon will be with the beast when that happens. Therefore, this will be 3 1/2 years after the "false peace" that you said. However, you have missed it with God's wrath. His wrath builds in intensity throughout the trumpets, and comes to a boil at the vials. So when the beast goes on the rampage, prodded on by the wrath of the dragon, God starts pouring out his wrath in the vials, to slow down the persecution, and eventually bring it to a halt. Therefore, they most surely will take place at the same time. So the dragon's wrath is not totally stopped with the first vial, but is certainly slowed down. Then slowed down more by the second vial, etc, etc, etc. Of course God could stop him before he starts, but the whole point is to bring the Jews to the place of repentance. Therefore, this intense persecution will be allowed to continue for a while; perhaps three years. Therefore, the time of GT is the same time as God's wrath. This is the way John shows it.

If you think not, please show us some scriptures.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

There can be no doubt that the time Daniel is referring to is at the midpoint of the week, and slightly after. Michael stands up, because he is just about to have a war with the dragon and his fallen angels! John tells us that this happens just after the midpoint. Now, what does Daniel say just before this verse?

I agree somewhat with this. Though, the people of that time who would read "Stand up" would understand that to mean, in their vernacular, "stand still".

Michael, who is the prince of Israel (their protector), "stands still" giving up the protection he was giving them throughout the OT. Satan, when cast out, believes Israel to be an easy target now, goes after them, but they flee into the wilderness and are protected once again.

Read about Michael's relationship with Israel here:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=michael

As for the rest of what I said, I stand by it. I mean no disrespect to you, but I have expressed my beliefs throughout the End Times Forum, posted several outlines and charts, also showiing what I believe and why. I just not up to reposting any of it again, not right now anyways. It's 12:38 here and I'm about ready to retire for the evening.

Peace,
Vic

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,

I believe they who nourish her are the 144,000; the 12 stars in Rev 12:1.

The "her" is the remnant that flees into the wilderness.

Vic, anyone can believe anything, and both you and I have met people that do believe some wild things. I am sure that I believe some things that others would consider wild. You and I both know also, that there is no scripture behind this belief.


Vic said

I agree somewhat with this. Though, the people of that time who would read "Stand up" would understand that to mean, in their vernacular, "stand still".

Michael, who is the prince of Israel (their protector), "stands still" giving up the protection he was giving them throughout the OT. Satan, when cast out, believes Israel to be an easy target now, goes after them, but they flee into the wilderness and are protected once again.

Actually, I would rather suspect that the only people that would read this as "stand still" would be those that have read the "pre-wrath" book that came up with this idea. Let's take another look:

Hebrew Lexacon

1) to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand

a) (Qal)

1) to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of

2) to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease

3) to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast

4) to make a stand, hold one's ground

5) to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright

6) to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against

7) to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid

b) (Hiphil)

1) to station, set

2) to cause to stand firm, maintain

3) to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect

4) to present (one) before (king)

5) to appoint, ordain, establish

c) (Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before

(emphasis added)

Yes, the idea of standing still is here, of that I do not argue. But that is one of many ideas that this word conveys.

Here is the general usage:
stood 171
stand 137
(raise, stand...) up 42
standing 10
withstand 6
total use of this word as an active use = 366

stay 17
still 15
remain 8
waited 5
total use of this word as an active use = 45

We can see that the general usage in the Old Testament is much more towards an active use of this word, not a passive use, as in standing still. Now, let's see how Daniel used this word:


Dan 1:4 Children in whom [was] no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as [had] ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

Clearly an active use: to stand

Dan 1:5 And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king's meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king.

Clearly an active use: stand

Dan 1:19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.

Clearly an active use: stood

Dan 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

Clearly an active use: stood

Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Clearly an active use: stood

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Clearly an active use: stand

Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Clearly an active use: standing, stand

Dan 8:15 ¶ And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Clearly an active use: stood

Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

Clearly an active use: set upright

Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Clearly an active use: stood up.

Dan 8:23 ¶ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Clearly an active use: stand up.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Clearly an active use: stand up.

Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

Clearly an active use: stand upright.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Most definitely an active use of this word: withstood.

Dan 10:16 And, behold, [one] like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

Clearly an active use: stood.

Dan 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

This is the one use that is different from the others in Daniel. However, it is far from "standing still," or remaining inactive.


Dan 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
Dan 11:3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
Dan 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Clearly an active use: stand up.

Dan 11:6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in [these] times.

Clearly an active use: stand.

Dan 11:7 But out of a branch of her roots shall [one] stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:

Clearly an active use: stand up.

Dan 11:8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, [and] with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue [more] years than the king of the north.

Definitely not "standing still," or remain "inactive."

Dan 11:11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, [even] with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.
Dan 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

Again, clearly not "standing still," or remain "inactive."

Dan 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

Clearly an active use: stand up.

Dan 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither [shall there be any] strength to withstand.

This is clearly not an inactive use of the word, such as "standing still."

Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
Dan 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand [on his side], neither be for him.

Again, an active use of the word: stand

Dan 11:20 ¶ Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Clearly an active use: stand up.

Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

Definitely not an inactive use, as "standing still."

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Again, an active use of the word: stand

Dan 12:5 ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

Again, an active use of the word: stood, not stood still (inactive).

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

We find then, that in these 36 other times that Daniel used this word, none of them were meant to be translated as "standing still," or remaining inactive." Even using the word as standing before the king, it is not meant to be translated or understood as being passive. Therefore, I must come to the conclusion that this is one more attempt to stretch a translation to make if fit a preconceived idea, that the text was not written to convey. Here is how some of the translotors have translated this:

New International Version
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.

New American Standard Bible
1"Now at that time (A)Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise...

Amplified
1AND AT that time [of the end] Michael shall arise, the great [angelic] prince who defends and has charge of your [Daniel's] people.

NKJV
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;

Young's literal
1`And at that time stand up doth Michael,...

It should be clear to all those that have accepted this idea of Michael "standing still," rather than arising, that you stand alone, and none of the translators agree with you. It should also be apparent that Daniel never used the same word with the meaning of standing still, although he used it frequently.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Actually, I would rather suspect that the only people that would read this as "stand still" would be those that have read the "pre-wrath" book that came up with this idea. Let's take another look:

Ah, Amigo, you give Van Kampen too much credit. This isn't a Pre Wrath concoction but I thank God he brought this to light. This interpretation is actually from the Late Jewish scholar, Rashi.

Rashi > http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Tal ... Rashi.html

Rashi > http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 1&letter=R

This link below is an English translation of the Hebrew Tanach, with Rashi's commentaries. Here is the link for Daniel 12:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16495

Exceprt:

1. Now at that time, Michael, the great prince, who stands over the children of your people, will be silent, and it will be a time of distress that never was since a nation existed until that time, and at that time, your people will escape, everyone who is found inscribed in the book.

 

[lecoop]

Actually, I would rather suspect that the only people that would read this as "stand still" would be those that have read the "pre-wrath" book that came up with this idea. Let's take another look:

Ah, Amigo, you give Van Kampen too much credit. This isn't a Pre Wrath concoction but I thank God he brought this to light. This interpretation is actually from the Late Jewish scholar, Rashi.

Rashi > http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Tal ... Rashi.html

Rashi > http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 1&letter=R

This link below is an English translation of the Hebrew Tanach, with Rashi's commentaries. Here is the link for Daniel 12:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16495

Exceprt:
[quote:614ad]1. Now at that time, Michael, the great prince, who stands over the children of your people, will be silent, and it will be a time of distress that never was since a nation existed until that time, and at that time, your people will escape, everyone who is found inscribed in the book.

[/quote:614ad]

Actually, I really liked both Van Kampen's and Rosenthal's books. I disagreed with some of it, but I still think they did a good job; especially showing the convergence of many scriptures on the 6th and 7th seal. They just confirmed what I already knew. However, they thought only the day of the Lord started there, when in fact, both the 70th week and the day of the Lord start there.

As for this interpretation about Michael, first, it makes no sense, and second, "silent" is not even in the list from thayers as for what this word means.

Stop and think for a minute: the beast will go after, not only the Jews in Jerusalem, but also the remnant. You can be sure that Michael will be "on the job," protecting the remnant. But even before that, he will go to war with the fallen angels in the heavenlies. How then, could anyone even think that Michael will be silent, or stand still. That is just silly! Was Gabriel "standing still" when he was attempting to get to Daniel? Was Michael "standing still" when he came to break through for Gabriel? It was war! And then, what do you make of this verse: "And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers...." Do you think that Michael was asleep? What does "war" mean to you? This was an all out battle. You can be sure that Satan did not want to be cast out of heaven, where he has been accusing us for these 2000 years. Therefore, I will maintain that it is a silly interpretation to think that Michael will "stand still." Of all the time in history, this is one 7 year period that the angels will be busier than they have ever been.

Last, Michael is an angel, not God. How many fallen angels are there? Could Michael indeed do the job of restrainer? I personally think the authority of the believers, which comes from the anointing of the Holy Spirit is far more qualified to restrain the antichrist. Therefore, I disagree.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Coop,

I respect your opinion, but your argument isn't with me. You need to consider that an esteemed Jewish scholar like Rashi might just understand Michael and his relationship with Israel of old better than most contemporary Christian scholars. I will take the word of Rashi over Strong, Smith or Thayer in this case.

Check out the links, it can do you no harm. You might just learn something, as I have... and don't unestimate the power of Michael, as his power is straight from the Almighty. There is no explicit verse that states the HS is the Restrainer, but if you combine 2 Thessalonians 2:7 with Daniel 12:1, you get a pretty good "picture" of who the Restrainer is.

After all, he IS the prince of the people.

Also, don't disregard Van Kampen's knowledge of scripture and Biblical history. He had one of the most extensive collections of ancient texts, antiquities and ancient scrolls at the time of his death. Plus the fact that Rosenthal is a converted Jew (and was a proponet of PreTrib for over 15 years) should account for something too.

 

[Darrell dunn]

The Day of the Lord, the seven years appointed to the jews.

The tribulations first and second half.

But the first he in Dan.9:27 is God, not the AC, the first 69 weeks was between God and the Jew, The last week will be between God and the Jew.

It is refereed to as a Holy Covenant in Dan. 11:30 & 31 and the AC is against it.

It will start with the sealing of the 144,000.

John wrote the book of Rev. shortly before his death around 95 AD

After 70 AD so the seals could not have been in 70 AD.

Also the souls under the Throne 6:9- 11 are the 5 foolish virgins that will be killed after the rapture, Because of their radical preaching and behavior.

Jesus came and start the church, and left us in charge of telling the world about him( THE CHURCH ) and will not come back to change that until it is complete.
He will not start a new way of salvation. By bringing the 144,000 out of thin air or any where else. They will be saved the same way we were by someone preaching to them, and they except the Lord just like you and I did.

Now for the seal were you not sealed by the Holy Spirit?

The anointing of these will be some what deferent because of God's covenant with the Jews.

And as for the Woman in the 12th chapter She is the church, And the man child is the HE'S in the letters to the churches , the raptured saints, that will rule with a rod of iron, Rev.2:27

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry for jumping in Darrell, but it took me some time to find the time to type this out.

This is straight out of Van Kampen's "technical notes" following ch. 11 of his book:

1. See Strong's. # 5975 which, along with the KJV, gives the definition of "amad" as, "stand up". On the other hand, Rashi, one of Israels' greatest scholars, understood "stand up" to literally mean, "stand still" (Juddah J. Slotki, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah [LondonSoncino, 1978]. pg.101)

For this reason, the Midrash, commenting on this verse says, "The Holy One. Blessed be He, said to Michael, 'You are silent?' You do not defend my children". (Ruth Rabbah I)

See other NASB text where the same Hebrew word is used: 1 Sam 9:27 ("remain standing"): 2 Sam 2:28 ("halted"); 2 Kings 4:6 ("stopped"); Judges 7:21 ("stood in his place") See also Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, "amid" (#1637), "stand, remain, endure'; amd Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 764a.2a. Cf. "stand still, stop, cease moving"...

... The word "amad" in Daniel 12:1 is ordinarily rendered as "will arise" "will stand up", etc. But such a rendering makes little sense in the context of what immediately follows in that verse: "and there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."...

And the notes go on for another two pages.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

I respect your opinion, but your argument isn't with me. You need to consider that an esteemed Jewish scholar like Rashi might just understand Michael and his relationship with Israel of old better than most contemporary Christian scholars. I will take the word of Rashi over Strong, Smith or Thayer in this case.

Check out the links, it can do you no harm. You might just learn something, as I have... and don't unestimate the power of Michael, as his power is straight from the Almighty. There is no explicit verse that states the HS is the Restrainer, but if you combine 2 Thessalonians 2:7 with Daniel 12:1, you get a pretty good "picture" of who the Restrainer is.

After all, he IS the prince of the people.

Also, don't disregard Van Kampen's knowledge of scripture and Biblical history. He had one of the most extensive collections of ancient texts, antiquities and ancient scrolls at the time of his death. Plus the fact that Rosenthal is a converted Jew (and was a proponet of PreTrib for over 15 years) should account for something too.

I guess my question is, do you think Rashi is a spirit filled believer? I am not speaking of "church creed or doctrines" - I am speaking of an Acts chapter 2 experience. I doubt that RAshi has had such an experience. Therefore, he is going solely on human reasoning and understanding. That is great, and he is probably most qualified, but human reasoning and understanding is limited when it comes to understanding what the author, the Holy Spirit, meant by certain verses.

Did you ever stop to think that undoubtedly, every author of New Testament books spoke in tongues? In other words, they had an Acts 2 experience. What am I saying? Simply this: it is much easier to understand the author, if that very author has annointed someone with Himself! Remember, Jesus said, "I am anointed..."

Young and Strong were both very learned men, but I don't think either one of them were "anointed" by the Holy Spirit with an Acts 2 experience either. They wrote books with human understanding. But since they were so learned in their field, there books have stood the test of time, and have been the desktop standard for biblical research for many years. However, I don't think even they understood many of the verses in Revelation. But since they were writing books, they had to do the best they could with each verse. I suspect that it is the same with Rashi.

I have not had any revealed knowledge on Michael or the verses in question, so I cannot be dogmatic about them. I personally do not know of anyone that would take one sentence, such as John weeping, and meditate on that one phrase for weeks, praying in the spirit about it, and bugging God about why He included that. I did that - not because I am anything - but because I was led by Him to do that. And finally, revelation knowledge came. Same with the midpoint of the week. Same with the beginning of the week. Therefore, even though I disagree with these great learned men, I am confident that I heard from the Holy Spirit. So you and I will undoubtedly continue to disagree on these points, that is, unless you will finally believe me about the "midpoint intermission," and John's chronology! : -)))

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Vic's quote: [... The word "amad" in Daniel 12:1 is ordinarily rendered as "will arise" "will stand up", etc. But such a rendering makes little sense in the context of what immediately follows in that verse: "and there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."...]

:fadein: Arm of flesh? OK: here is my explanation! John says:
... The word "amad" in Daniel 12:1 is ordinarily rendered as "will arise" "will stand up", etc.

Christ is our High Priest, the Sealing is done (over) at this time, it is all finished! See the saved ones in Revelation 3:10, & Revelation 7:3, & Revelation 7:9! This 7 last plagues period is after this has happened! Probation is over when Christ stands up. With no Holy Spirit 'Striving with mankind' they are like satan, & at his total command. (some already are! 1 Peter 4:7) ALL HELL (so to speak) BRAKES LOOSE! See Isaiah 5:5 for the 70 AD contemporary, with Ezekiel 9 even being an two/fold prophecy of this same ending.

Only.. this is the seven last plagues! And they cannot come while Christ is still our Mediator. They can only come when His ministry is FINISHED! (you see, it is NOT FINISHED YET! :fadein

And who are to be saved? Christ comes after this time/period and His reward is with Him to give reward to the ones that have their names recorded in the Book of Life! Revelation 22:12. The only question asked?? See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14's 'LET US HEAR THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER ..'!
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But such a rendering makes little sense in the context of what immediately follows in that verse: "and there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."...