Re: The Day of the Lord!

[lecoop]

Quasar said

3. One more time: The book of Revelation is in no way one of history, but is as it clearly states, "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near," Rev.1:3. Trying to make history out of vs 19 is pure imagination. It states the following, "Write therefore what you have seen [present tense, not history], what is now and what will take place later." There is nothing in that Scripture to imply past tense in any sense of the word!

In a small way, I must agree with Quasar here, for indeed, in verse 19, what is translated as past tense, i.e. "hast seen,' is a Greek Aorist verb, and as Young's or Strong's put it, "is not inflected to show tense." The Greek Aorist verbs do what is impossible in English, and that is, show action, with no "when" information included. However, that being said, the very construction of the sentence, means that John was intending to show, first past tense, then present tense, and finally, future tense. All the translators agree on this.

King James Version
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

American Standard Version
1:19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
Darby's English Translation
1:19 Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these.

Douay Rheims
1:19 Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter.

Weymouth New Testament
1:19 Write down therefore the things you have just seen, and those which are now taking place, and those which are soon to follow:

Young's Literal Translation
1:19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

In any translation I have seen, there is this three part comparison: the past, the present, and the future. All translators agree on this.

Just to show that John did indeed write things in his past, let's look at some verses.

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There is much agreement among comentators that the first two verses are in referrence to the birth of Christ, clearly an event in John's past. Then verse 3 and 4 show an event of ancient past, before the days of Adam, when Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him, and led a revolt in heaven. Jude tells us that these angels are chained up in Tatarus.

Finally, John's vision in chapter 4, shows us that God was showing John a time in his past, about 33 AD, just before Jesus rose from the dead. You will notice that when John saw into the throne room, Jesus was not there, but then showed up as soon as He was worthy to take the scroll; that is, as soon as He had risen from the dead. What God is showing us here, is that John was seeing into the past, and saw the very moment that Jesus entered heaven after rising from the dead. This again is John writing about a past tense event.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

4. Rev.12:1-2 is the sign of the Son of Man Jesus referred to in Mt.24:30, which is an ongoing annual event that takes place at or near the Jewish Holy Convocation, Rosh Hashana, their New Year they call the day of New Beginnings, and the Day of Trumpets. It is the exact time of the year Jesus was born. Which in and of itself, does not make Revelation a history book!

Matthew 24:30 reads:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The disciples had asked Jesus for a sign, and now Jesus gives them a sign. He would be seen as lightning flashing from east to west, in a dark sky, and then He would descend to earth. This has absolutely nothing to do with Rev: 12:1-2 as that is a word picture of Jesus' birth.

"she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

6. You wrote, "Perhaps Quasar could find some of this language that he thinks points to the future rather than the past. On the other hand, I have pointed out scriptures that do point to the past, and Quasar has failed to even comment on them. For instance, why was Jesus not seen in John's first look into the throne room? (it shows timing)." I have answered your tunnel visioned question before, by telling you to read a little further, to Rev.5:6-7 and you will 'see Him.' Your concept of what you would see at the first glance of everything in heaven is not only very narrow, but also very unrealistic as to the ability for anyone to describe it.

As I said before, we need help from the HS to understand some of these things (probably all of them!). I asked God for weeks why He included the part about John weeping much. It seemed like something that we did not need to know. Finally, the Holy Spirit answered. He said, and I qoute, "it shows timing." I had to meditate on that for weeks more, before the HS gave me understanding of how this portion of scripture shows timing. But after the HS gave me understanding, now I see it.

You see, there was just a small window of time, since Adam was created, that someone could have looked into the throne room, and not seen the second person of the trinity there at the throne. Yet John, in about 95 AD, looked into the throne room, and Jesus was not there. Then John was shown that a search had been underway, to find one worthy to open the scroll and no man was found. What does this phrase tell us? Did heaven perform a poor search, and just did not find one that truely was qualified? Did heaven overlook someone? Of course not!

The answer to why no man was found, was that no one was qualified at that moment in time when this seach was done. Now, what period of time, could someone have looked into the throne room and not seen the second person of the trinity, and at the same time, a search be made for one worthy, and no man found? The answer is easy, and is given to us. John was seeing into the throne room, before Jesus had risen from the dead. He could not have been in the throne room, because he was on earth, redeeming us back to God. When the angels were searching, no one had accomplished this redemption yet. But suddenly! Suddenly, a man was found, and an angel rushed to John and told him that he could now stop weeping: a man had been found. Then John saw Jesus as a lamb that had been slain!

What God was telling us here, is that John saw the very moment that Jesus entered heaven, after He rose from the dead!

Therefore, once again, Quasar misses what John was telling us. John was indeed writing of a past tense event, because God showed a past tense event to John.

Now, someone might wonder why God would show John an event about 30 years into John's past. The answer, again, is simple. It was to show us the timing of the first seals. You will read that as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, He went immediately to take the scroll out of the had of the Father, and again, He immediately started breaking the seals.

Why the great rush to break the seals? Because this was the deed to planet earth. The only way that the 7th trumpet could be sounded, that would get planet earth back into God's possession, would be to start with the seals. It was imperitive that someone be found worthy to break these seals, or Satan would forever be the god of earth.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

As for Scripture that refer to the future, try reading Mt.24:3 for starters, "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, 'Tell us,' they said, 'WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN, AND WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE.'" You must read all of it to understand what the text is all about!

Some people seem to forget that this event took place about 33 AD, which was about 2000 years into our past! The first question was about when "not one stone" would remain on another. We know that that took place in 70 AD. Is that in our past? It sure was! Wow! Almost 2000 years into our past. Therefore, it is just silly to think that Jesus did not say anything here in this discourse that was in our past.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

9. The first seal what depicts the rider on the white horse is the very same person who Paul refers to in 2 Thes.2:3-4 as the man of lawolessness that the Lord Jesus will destroy - the Antichrist, which is repeated in vs 7-8. He is also the very same person who 'confirms the covenant with Israel for one 'week!' Your opinion that this rider represents the Church is one where you can act what you've been accusing me of, show me the Scripture that even comes close to such an imagination! The Church has never conquered the world, and never will. During the middle ages, when they thought the Church had replaced Israel as the Elect of God, with nine crusades to take Jerusalem back from the Muslims.

Quasar's first sentence is pure myth, with no biblical support what-so-ever. Yes, it is tradition for the pre-trib doctrine, but it is pure speculation. In the first place, the timing is off for this to be the beast. This first seal was broken about 33 AD, and it is now past 2000 AD and the antichrist has still not been revealed. This is not my opinion, it is what John wrote. He used the color white, representing righteousness. God would NEVER use white to represent evil or the beast, as shown in chapters 12 & 13. When God colors the antichrist beast, He does it with fiery red. This imagination, of the white horse representing the antichrist, must then also imagine that this vision is coming, not from the mind of God, but from the mind of the beast! Of course the beast would color himself as white, but God knows that he is red, and colored him red in chapter 13.

If one understands where the 70th week is in Revelation, marked clearly by the "7's," then it is clear that John never meant for the seals to be included in the 70th week. It seems difficult for many to make the connection, but the 6th seal, with the cosmic signs fulfilling the prophecy of Joel, is a very clear marker that the day of the Lord starts with the 7th seal. The 70th week starts at the same exact spot. Both the 70th week and the day of the Lord start with the 7th seal, but the 70th week ends with the 7th vial, while the day of the Lord continues on.

Where is the scripture that makes the first seal the church? First find the timing, as shown in chapter 5. Then study the color white. John uses this color white umpteen times in Revelation, and each time to represent righteousness. You are trying to get us to believe that in this one occasion, white really means fiery red.

Next, when you find that the four horsemen do not even ride together, that is further proof that the white horse, representing the church, rides out first, and alone. Then Satan comes along trying to stop what God is doing through the church. You don't believe that the church has conquered? The church started with 120 in the upper room, and now there are Christians in every country on the face of the earth, in spite of the fact that Satan is the god of this planet. His weapons were taken away, while the church was given spiritual weapons that are powerful, even to the distruction of the enemies strongholds. It seems then, that from 120 to perhaps 2 to 3 billion people, that the church has indeed conquered. We are not speaking of a physical conquering, else the rider would have had something else than a bow in his hand. No, God meant spiritual conquering: making disciples from every nation.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

11. The rider on the white horse, who is the first seal, in Rev.6:2, clearly depicts the Antichrist, of Dan.9:27, who makes a covenant with Israel for one 'week,' and then breaks it in the middle of the 'week,' as he also appears in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. The first seal, kicks off the tribulation, triggered by the Antichrist! The Church has been raptured as seen in Rev.4:1-2. Now supposing you support your allegations with Scripture you think make this rider on the white horse, seen as the first seal is the Church!

Here we go with the unsupported myths. If this first seal "clearly" depicts the antichrist, then perhaps Quasar can prove this by some words of scripture?

6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

What words here "clearly" show us the antichrist? Let's compare with a scripture that we know is the antichrist.

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;

12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns,and seven crowns upon his heads.

So let's first compare colors. The first rider is colored white. God has used this color to represent righteousness from Genesis to maps. Why then imagine that in this one verse, God would use white to represent evil? Answer? He would not! White in this verse represents righteousness, just as in all the other verses where God chose the color white. The beast is controled by the dragon, colored by God as fiery red! See the difference?

Next, let's look at the horses. Jesus rides a white horse in Rev. 19, and this is a white horse, so again, this shows righteousness. In chapter 13, we see that the beast blasphemes God. Do we see anything like this with the first seal? No.

We are given only one sentence to discribe this first seal. Only one sentence, and not one word in this sentence gives us even one hint of evil. Let's take it for what it says, and not read anything into it!

White
Horse
Rider
Bow
Crown
conquering

Do we see any words here that would seem to represent evil? No! But we do see white, used throughout the bible to represent righteousness. So forget the idea of this being the antichrist!

It is clear then, that only human reasoning could come up with the white horse, meant by God to represent the church of Jesus Christ, being called the antichrist. No, it is the church, sent out to make disciples of every nation.

Next, Quasar would have us believe that the rapture is seen in Rev. 4:1-2.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


First we see the phrase, "after this." Some would have us believe that this is to mean, "after the church age." However, John used this same phrase, or very similar ones, five other times, and each time only as a "transitional phrase" to turn from what he had just seen, to a new part of the vision. This is exactly what John is doing here. He is switching from one part of the vision to the other: "changing the subject," so to speak. To read into this that he means, "after the church age," is to read into it something that is just not there.

Next we see a door open in heaven. What should we make of an open door? Only that to John, it was an "invitation" for him to go in. This is seen in what John hears when he sees the open door: "Come up hither..." Again, many want to say that this is to mean that it is the church that is called to heaven. That is just silly! Is God not allowed to call someone to heaven, without the rest of us saying that he is calling the whole church? Before we get to what the voice said, we see that it sounded like a trumpet. Again, people jump on this like it was a piece of gold. But notice that it was NOT a trumpet, but a voice!

It is interesting that those that would make this the rapture, skip over the next phase: "and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Is the church being raptured so that God can show us things that must be hereafter? Of course not. So let's not stretch this verse, or force it to say what it was not meant to say. It is only God calling John to heaven, plain and simple.

Coop

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

<Coop writes:

Quasar said
Quote:
1. From one who is qualified to teach eschatology to one who is not, you are challenged! Your attempt to discredit others when you have no qualifications to do so invalidates your lengthy rhetoric expressing nothing but your own opinion. When are you going to learn how to discuss issues without attacking others?


Who is qualified to teach eschatology, in Quasar's way of thinking? Of course, he is! So what really makes one qualified to teach eschatology? It is a list of degrees? No. Many people that started out with some faith, after seminary, lost what faith they had. It is common knowledge that many seminary trained pastors today, don't even believe in the virgin birth! We trust that this cannot be said of Quasar! John wrote this book, and he was an unlearned fisherman! The 12 Apostles started the church, and many of them were fisherman! Therefore, it seems that degrees are not what makes one qualified.

So again, who is really qualified? First one must be born again, for the wisdom of God is foolishness to those that are not born of the spirit. Next, one should be able to read. Last, one should be filled with the Spirit, and have experience hearing from Him. Without the Holy Spirit's help, we come up with man's ideas, from human reasoning. We must hear from the author, the Holy Spirit. The bottom line is, if someone understands a scripture, he or she is qualifed to teach on that scripture. If someone does not understand a scripture, they should not teach it until they do. I will let the readers decide who is the most qualified. Have I written "lengthy rhetoric expressing nothing but your [my] own opinion?" No, I back up what I say with scripture.>




You just don't get it, do you junior! Yes, I have the teaching credentials to teach eschatology and I back up what I post with Scripture, PROPERLY INTERPRETATED. Your boasting about what you write being backed up by Scripture, is in great part A DISTORTION OF THE INTENDED MEANING, most of which is your IMAGINATION AND DISTORTED OPINION!

Try taking a page from Jesus, who said so much with so few words!

You continue to attack your opponents in your usual immature way instead of the issues. Either learn how to debate or stay out of the kitchen where it's too hot for you! GROW UP!

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

Quote by Marvin Rosenthal:

>>>Third, the usual pretribulational view is that when the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is also taken since the Holy Spirit is indwelling the Church. However, as has already been noted, the text does not say the restrainer goes to Heaven. It simply states that he will "get out of the way." The idea is that he will "cease" or "desist" from restraining. The contention that the restrainer "hitchhikes" on the removal of the Church -- that when the Church is raptured, the restrainer is removed -- is superimposed on the text. It places the restrainer's withdrawal into the category of being a by-product of the Church's removal.

Fourth, if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and He is removed pretribulationally from the earth's scene to Heaven, how does one account for His active and dynamic ministry during the seventieth week of Daniel? We are told that the "gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" (Mt. 24:14). The Church hasn't been able to accomplish that feat in two thousand years. Is a remnant of newly saved believers (as required if the Church has been raptured pretribulationally) going to be able to do in seven years what the Church could not achieve in two thousand years -- and do it while the Antichrist is physically present and without the Holy Spirit's fulness of ministry?<<<


Quasar's response:


First of all, I read Marvin Rosenthal's book when it was first published, Vic, so I am well aware of his position in these matters and that he was a Pre-tribber to begin with.

His statement in #3 above, as to the Pre-trib position about the Holy Spirit being the restrainer is not properly delineated. Let me make this abundantly clear: The Holy Spirit is God, per Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul in 2 Cor.3:17-18. HE IS NEVER TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY! But rather, ALL BELIEVERS, WHO ARE THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST, BY THE ONE SPIRIT - WHO DWELLS WITHIN ALL OF US, as it is written in 1 Cor.12:12-13, as well as Jn.17:21-22, IS THE RESTRAINER!

As for his statement in #4 above, God, the Holy Spirit IS NEVER TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, and the RESTRAINER IS THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT OF THE ONE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST, BY THE ONE SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit remains, always, and places 144,000 Israelis, 12,000 from twelve of the tribes of Israel, to take the place of the raptured Church, through whose efforts the Great Multitude of Rev.7 will be saved by, during the tribulation.

As for the Church being able to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom throughout the entire world [Mt.24:14] over the past 2,000 years - indeed it has! However, THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES HAS NOT YET COME IN! When that happens, THE END WILL COME! [Mt.24:14]. Which will not take place until all the Gentile martyred saints of the Tribulation have been gathered in.


Think about this fact for a moment: With the understanding that all of us who belong to Christ go to be with Him immediately after our physical death [2 Cor.5:6-8 and Phil.1:21-23], why would He allow any of us who are left here alive, when He returns for us [1 Thes.4:14-18], to go through any part of the tribulation?


Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Darrell dunn]

lecoop said:

Here we go with the unsupported myths. If this first seal "clearly" depicts the antichrist, then perhaps Quasar can prove this by some words of scripture?

6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

What words here "clearly" show us the antichrist? Let's compare with a scripture that we know is the antichrist.

___________________________

As for the white horse, The word horse means a way of transportation,

It is true that white represents righteousness, but as a robe on the saints not on a horse.

The white horse is the platform that the AC uses to come on the scene, The promise of peace. Also trying to pass himself off as God.

Also satan can appear as a angle of light.

Using the bible to interpret the bible.

Rev.1:20 Says that angles are now called STARS. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand,------------are the seven ANGELS of the seven churches:

Rev.6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto earth,
THIS IS SATAN AND HIS ANGELS BEING CAST TO THE EARTH.

Now the reason for the change is because, The glorifided saints are now coming on the scene, and they will be called angels.

Rev.19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him, And he said unto me, See thou do it not: for I am a fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

Now Rev.4:1 IS THE RAPTURE!!!!!!! And the glorified saints are before the Throne Rev.5:11 Singing Phrases to God and the Lamb

 

[lecoop]

lecoop said:

Here we go with the unsupported myths. If this first seal "clearly" depicts the antichrist, then perhaps Quasar can prove this by some words of scripture?

6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

What words here "clearly" show us the antichrist? Let's compare with a scripture that we know is the antichrist.

___________________________

As for the white horse, The word horse means a way of transportation,

It is true that white represents righteousness, but as a robe on the saints not on a horse.

The white horse is the platform that the AC uses to come on the scene, The promise of peace. Also trying to pass himself off as God.

Also satan can appear as a angle of light.

Using the bible to interpret the bible.

Rev.1:20 Says that angles are now called STARS. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand,------------are the seven ANGELS of the seven churches:

Rev.6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto earth,
THIS IS SATAN AND HIS ANGELS BEING CAST TO THE EARTH.

Now the reason for the change is because, The glorifided saints are now coming on the scene, and they will be called angels.

Rev.19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him, And he said unto me, See thou do it not: for I am a fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

Now Rev.4:1 IS THE RAPTURE!!!!!!! And the glorified saints are before the Throne Rev.5:11 Singing Phrases to God and the Lamb

So go ahead and explain why a white horse with a rider (designed by God to represent righteous warfare), is to represent something evil? If you want to pick something that looks righteous, why not pick the white horse in Chapter 19? There must be a reason. Why this horse and not the other? Why this rider, and not the other? And again, please show me just one word here that would lead you or anyone else to say this is the antichrist? He rides out about 2000 years too soon! And He rides alone. And he is white. Go back again, and see how God paints evil. Look in chapter 12.

Next, please show how the rapture took place in 95 AD. You know, that is when this door was opened, and that was when John was called to heaven.

Why do you want to stretch scriptures? Why not just let them mean what God meant for them to mean. A fifth grader, reading this, would say that this was God calling John to heaven. Plain and simple. We don't need to add to it.

Yes, Satan, it is written, can appear as light. But have you ever seen a human accomplish this? Was Judas able to do this, even though Satan entered into him? Sorry, but the antichrist will not appear as a angel (a being of light). He is a man, and will appear as a man. He is not seen on a white horse. John sees him "rise up out of the sea."

 

[lecoop]

Re: The Day of the Lord

Quote by Marvin Rosenthal:

>>>Third, the usual pretribulational view is that when the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is also taken since the Holy Spirit is indwelling the Church. However, as has already been noted, the text does not say the restrainer goes to Heaven. It simply states that he will "get out of the way." The idea is that he will "cease" or "desist" from restraining. The contention that the restrainer "hitchhikes" on the removal of the Church -- that when the Church is raptured, the restrainer is removed -- is superimposed on the text. It places the restrainer's withdrawal into the category of being a by-product of the Church's removal.

Fourth, if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and He is removed pretribulationally from the earth's scene to Heaven, how does one account for His active and dynamic ministry during the seventieth week of Daniel? We are told that the "gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" (Mt. 24:14). The Church hasn't been able to accomplish that feat in two thousand years. Is a remnant of newly saved believers (as required if the Church has been raptured pretribulationally) going to be able to do in seven years what the Church could not achieve in two thousand years -- and do it while the Antichrist is physically present and without the Holy Spirit's fulness of ministry?<<<


Quasar's response:


First of all, I read Marvin Rosenthal's book when it was first published, Vic, so I am well aware of his position in these matters and that he was a Pre-tribber to begin with.

His statement in #3 above, as to the Pre-trib position about the Holy Spirit being the restrainer is not properly delineated. Let me make this abundantly clear: The Holy Spirit is God, per Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul in 2 Cor.3:17-18. HE IS NEVER TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY! But rather, ALL BELIEVERS, WHO ARE THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST, BY THE ONE SPIRIT - WHO DWELLS WITHIN ALL OF US, as it is written in 1 Cor.12:12-13, as well as Jn.17:21-22, IS THE RESTRAINER!

As for his statement in #4 above, God, the Holy Spirit IS NEVER TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, and the RESTRAINER IS THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT OF THE ONE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST, BY THE ONE SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit remains, always, and places 144,000 Israelis, 12,000 from twelve of the tribes of Israel, to take the place of the raptured Church, through whose efforts the Great Multitude of Rev.7 will be saved by, during the tribulation.

As for the Church being able to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom throughout the entire world [Mt.24:14] over the past 2,000 years - indeed it has! However, THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES HAS NOT YET COME IN! When that happens, THE END WILL COME! [Mt.24:14]. Which will not take place until all the Gentile martyred saints of the Tribulation have been gathered in.


Think about this fact for a moment: With the understanding that all of us who belong to Christ go to be with Him immediately after our physical death [2 Cor.5:6-8 and Phil.1:21-23], why would He allow any of us who are left here alive, when He returns for us [1 Thes.4:14-18], to go through any part of the tribulation?


Blessings,

Quasar

Quasar, you did a great job here!

What power would we, as Christians, have over satan or any of the demons, without the Holy Spirit? The answer is, none! Without Him, we undoubtedly could not find our way in out of the rain. He is the anointing that breaks the yoke. He is the One that gives us authority.

However, when we are changed, and take on immortality, and rise up, we take that authority with us. Remember, the Holy Spirit is the "helper" not the "doer." He helps us. If we are not here, he is not out doing what we would be doing, on His own. It that were the case, then God would not have needed the church, as His body here. But He did need us, and we were His arms and legs on earth. When we are raptured, we are not here anymore. For a while, no prayers will be going out, except for people crying out to God to get born again! No one will be taking authority over the devil, or his bunch.

Therefore, when we are gone, of course the HS will be here, but as the helper. He will have very few to help for a period of time. Jesus will have very few of His body to work with for a time. It will be during this time just after the rapture, that the antichrist will rise to power.

Michael, the great warrior angel, is not the restrainer, but will go into battle with Satan, and once and for all, cast him out of heaven.
Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said

You just don't get it, do you junior! Yes, I have the teaching credentials to teach eschatology and I back up what I post with Scripture, PROPERLY INTERPRETATED. Your boasting about what you write being backed up by Scripture, is in great part A DISTORTION OF THE INTENDED MEANING, most of which is your IMAGINATION AND DISTORTED OPINION!

Try taking a page from Jesus, who said so much with so few words!

You continue to attack your opponents in your usual immature way instead of the issues. Either learn how to debate or stay out of the kitchen where it's too hot for you! GROW UP!

Yes, Quasar, in fact, I do get it. I know that "sacred cows" die hard, but they do, eventually, die. The rapture at Rev. 4:1 is a sacred cow. The first seal as the antichrist is a sacred cow. We both know that these scriptures have to be stretched to make them say what the traditional pre-trib have made them say. It has been "sloppy exegesis" in these areas that have given "prewrath" and "post trib" such a heyday. They understand well that these scriptures have been stretched to make them say what John did not intend them to say.

As I said to Darrell, even a fifth grade reader would know that Rev. 4:1 is God calling John to heaven, in about 95 AD, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with the rapture. Why are you so intent on finding the rapture? If God had wanted the rapture to be shown, He would have shown it to John in the vision, and John would have shown us. Since He did not, then let's not try to force scriptures to say what they don't say, to make a rapture appear when God never intended it.

Let's see if we can agree on the midpoint of the week. As you know, I call the time frame for chapter 10 to chapter 15, the "midpoint intermission." The exact midpoint is in these chapters. I know that the exact midpoint is the 7th trumpet, for the Holy Spirit revealed that to me. As I was reading about the abomination in Daniel, He said that I could find the exact midpoint, "clearly marked" in Revelation. Then He said that I could also find the entire 70th week clearly marked. And then He told me how to find them.

Therefore, if you pick your midpoint somewhere in Chapter 11 or 12, we are close to ageement. Once we have that, then let's back up and see what is in the first half of the week. Agreed?

Coop

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

lecoop said:

Here we go with the unsupported myths. If this first seal "clearly" depicts the antichrist, then perhaps Quasar can prove this by some words of scripture?

6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

What words here "clearly" show us the antichrist? Let's compare with a scripture that we know is the antichrist.

___________________________

As for the white horse, The word horse means a way of transportation,

It is true that white represents righteousness, but as a robe on the saints not on a horse.

The white horse is the platform that the AC uses to come on the scene, The promise of peace. Also trying to pass himself off as God.

Also satan can appear as a angle of light.

Using the bible to interpret the bible.

Rev.1:20 Says that angles are now called STARS. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand,------------are the seven ANGELS of the seven churches:

Rev.6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto earth,
THIS IS SATAN AND HIS ANGELS BEING CAST TO THE EARTH.

Now the reason for the change is because, The glorifided saints are now coming on the scene, and they will be called angels.

Rev.19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him, And he said unto me, See thou do it not: for I am a fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

Now Rev.4:1 IS THE RAPTURE!!!!!!! And the glorified saints are before the Throne Rev.5:11 Singing Phrases to God and the Lamb

A Hi Five for you, Darrell dunn!

That the first of the four horsemen, riding a white horse does indeed represent the Antichrist, in Rev.6:2, as is also found in Dan.9:27 and in 2 Thes;2:3-4 and 7-8, is a Scriptural truth!

Also, that Rev.4:1-2 represents the Church being called into heaven, as Jesus used the apostle John to reveal to us symbolically, is also a Scriptural truth. It is synonomous with 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes;2:3 and 7.

Also fully endorsed by the following: [Should there be any doubts, I will be more than happy to provide quotes]

E. Schuyler English, Litt.D., Chairman

A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.

B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.

C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.

D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.

E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.

F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.

G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.

H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.

I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.

The above theologians represent the Editorial Committee of the 1967 edition of the Scofield Bible. None of which are the 'Calvinists' you allude to!

Others who endorse the rapture theology of the Church are:

Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Hay, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV minstry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker, Dr. Norbert Lieth, hundreds of thousands of others!

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

The DAy of the Lord

Quasar said

You just don't get it, do you junior! Yes, I have the teaching credentials to teach eschatology and I back up what I post with Scripture, PROPERLY INTERPRETATED. Your boasting about what you write being backed up by Scripture, is in great part A DISTORTION OF THE INTENDED MEANING, most of which is your IMAGINATION AND DISTORTED OPINION!

Try taking a page from Jesus, who said so much with so few words!

You continue to attack your opponents in your usual immature way instead of the issues. Either learn how to debate or stay out of the kitchen where it's too hot for you! GROW UP!

1. Yes, Quasar, in fact, I do get it. I know that "sacred cows" die hard, but they do, eventually, die. The rapture at Rev. 4:1 is a sacred cow. The first seal as the antichrist is a sacred cow. We both know that these scriptures have to be stretched to make them say what the traditional pre-trib have made them say. It has been "sloppy exegesis" in these areas that have given "prewrath" and "post trib" such a heyday. They understand well that these scriptures have been stretched to make them say what John did not intend them to say.

2. As I said to Darrell, even a fifth grade reader would know that Rev. 4:1 is God calling John to heaven, in about 95 AD, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with the rapture. Why are you so intent on finding the rapture? If God had wanted the rapture to be shown, He would have shown it to John in the vision, and John would have shown us. Since He did not, then let's not try to force scriptures to say what they don't say, to make a rapture appear when God never intended it.

3. Let's see if we can agree on the midpoint of the week. As you know, I call the time frame for chapter 10 to chapter 15, the "midpoint intermission." The exact midpoint is in these chapters. I know that the exact midpoint is the 7th trumpet, for the Holy Spirit revealed that to me. As I was reading about the abomination in Daniel, He said that I could find the exact midpoint, "clearly marked" in Revelation. Then He said that I could also find the entire 70th week clearly marked. And then He told me how to find them.

4. Therefore, if you pick your midpoint somewhere in Chapter 11 or 12, we are close to ageement. Once we have that, then let's back up and see what is in the first half of the week. Agreed?

Coop

1. By what authority do you cut other brothers in Christ low by your imagined eschatology? Supposing you try proving to me there is a Pre-wrath rapture as supported by Marvin Rosenthal! It is completely non-Scriptural, per Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8, together with Rev.4:1-2. I have posted to Darrell dunn, the names of some very highly esteemed theologians who believe exactly the same as I do! Calling the eschatology we all stand for a "sacred cow." is the epitome of arrogance as well as revealing your own convulsions of the ego!

2. In the prophecy Jesus revealed to John in Rev.4:1-2, He did at a Scripturally undisclosed period of time. Nowhere will you find when He gave John the vision he received on the island of Patmos, as to whether it was 65 A.D. or 95 A.D. Not that it matters at all, but if it was the latter, it would seem there would be something about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, which there is not, fully supporting the earlier date.

That Rev.4:1-2 "has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture," show me your Scriptural proof, as opinion is invalid! If Jesus could reveal the entire vision of Revelation to John without calling him into heaven with the voice that sounds like a trumpet, tell me why He did so!

The purpose for determining when the rapture of the Church will take place has everything to do with THE DAY OF THE LORD, the subject of this thread, because it is the very first scenario that will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the Day of the Lord!

The reason Jesus did not reveal the rapture to John, is because it deals with His Church, not with Israel, who must go through the tribulation, because God decreed it! Jesus Church did not come into existence until Pentecost, and His ministry was to the lost sheep of Israel during His first advent, ONLY, as it is written in Mt.10:5-6 and 15:24! Why would Jesus want to make Israel any more jealous than telling them there will be Gentiles going to heaven with Him while they have to go through the wrath of God?

That "God never intended it" [The rapture] at the Rev.4:1-2 point, is nothing more than your unsupportable opinion!

3. That the "Holy Spirit revealed that to me," i.e., where the mid-point of the tribulation is, please tell me what you think the reason is for the Holy Spirit providing some of us with the gift of Prophecy and that it differs from that "which He revealed to you?" Are you sure you heard what He "told you?"

The only purpose I can find pertaining to a midway point in the tribulation has to do with Israel ONLY, not the Church, that does not go through any part of the tribulation. Revealed to Israel, from God, to the angel Gabriel, to Daniel, in 9:27. The only purpose I see in it, is to reveal to Israel, they are going to be deceived, in the middle of the 70th and final 'week' God has decreed upon them, and is to serve as a warning to be ever alert, for their very survival.

To determine a mid-point for the tribulation has no exegetical purpose pertaining to the Church at all, but for the benefit of discussion only, It could well be at the time the Antichrist kills the two witnesses after they have testified for 1,260 days [Rev.11:7. Meanwhile, the Antichrist is given power to continue for 42 more months [Rev.13:5].

You allude to the 7th trumpet judgement as a midway point, which would seem to me, according to the text, more likely to match the final phases of the tribulation, rather than a midway point, of Rev.11:15, together with Rev.19:11-16. As I have stated before, Revelation is not written in a linear chronological order at all.

4. For whatever your purpose, you have my selection.

Peace,

Quasar

 

[Darrell dunn]

Just a question, Have any of you met satan face to face?????

I have. Because when God was going to fill me with the Spirit, he challenged God to test me. now that is what God told me had happened. So I would like to know if he has challenged God for you?????

I am glad that all of these people believe the same as I do.

But like Paul said I did not conferr with anyone about scriptures The Lord taught scripture to me, in fact He told me not to read any thing or go to church or not even a bible study guide For a time of about a year. And in that time we consumed the bible. Him and I...

My wife told everyone that I had gone insane, and kept saying that she was going to leave me if I didn't quit telling her what the bible said all the time.

Faith cometh by HEARING THE VOICE OF GOD on a matter then no one can change your mind.

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

By what authority do you cut other brothers in Christ low by your imagined eschatology?

Quasar, I do not cut others down. I cut unsupported doctrines down. You know as well as I do, that much of the church world believes false doctrines, and they can back none of it up with scripture, but they still believe it. Others do have some correct doctrine, but they cannot support it either, for they will not spend the time in the book.

It seems that you at least do spend time so that you know what you believe, and you know why you believe it. I commend you for that, and it puts you in the minority.

Now, let's face facts. Jesus gave the Olivet discourse somewhere around 33 AD. John wrote the Revelation somewhere around 60-95 AD. It is now 2006 AD. This means that at the very least, 1911 years have passed. How does anyone know for sure, that all prophecy in the discourse of Jesus, and the book of Revelation is still future to us now? The answer is, they do not. The odds are that some of what Jesus said was future to them then, but past to us now. Case in point? Any reference to the destruction of the temple.

We all have to base our beliefs on what is written. It makes no difference if Scofield thought one way, and 1000 other scholars followed his writings. Did they seek revelation knowledge themselves, or did they just believe what he said? I have discovered that many of the people on these forums just follow someone else, that for some reason they agree with. Again, I trust something better of you. If we are going to believe something, we should have some scripture to back it up.

I grew up pretrib, and have heard it all my life. However, I never studied it out myself until the last three years. The Holy Spirit persuaded me to get into the book of Revelation, and Daniel. When I did, at His leading, I was determined to follow Him, even if it went against what I had heard all my life. In other words, my doctrines are changeable, as the Holy Spirit leads.

You ask a good question, about the midpoint of the week. You are right - we won't be here! But, it will help us establish and delineate the week. When the HS told me to search for the midpoint, and told me it was clearly marked, He also said that if He were to mention some event that would start at the midpoint, and go to the end, He would mention the time frame of 3 1/2 years. In other words, He was giving me a clue as to how to find the midpoint. He then said, if I find the places that this time frame is mentioned, I will be very near the midpoint.

I found five different mentions of the 3 1/2 years, given in days, months and years. (It seems God really wants us to get this!) I meditated on this portion of scripture until God revealed the exact midpoint to me. It was chapter 11 to chapter 13.

Quasar said

Supposing you try proving to me there is a Pre-wrath rapture as supported by Marvin Rosenthal! It is completely non-Scriptural, per Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8, together with Rev.4:1-2.

Did you stop to analyze what you just wrote? Of course the rapture is pre-wrath! We all believe it is pre-wrath, because that is what the Word says. If you stop to think about it, the classical pre-trib belief is at the same time, pre-wrath, as it comes before God's wrath.

However, I know that you are speaking of the particular place of the 6th seal, the great earthquake, and the cosmic signs. You see, here is where our beliefs part ways. I belive that the 70th week starts with the 7th seal, so if we are raptured out at the 6th seal, we are both pre-trib and pre-wrath.Pre-trib because the 70th week has not yet begun, (but is just about to) and prewrath, because God's wrath has not started.

Actually, Rosenthal makes a pretty good argument on page 219, that the "day of the Lord" must immediately follow the rapture, because Jesus said, when speaking of Noah, "until the day that Noah entered into the ark." What happened on that day? Total destruction for all but Noah and his family. Rosenthal's idea was that the rapture would take place, and on the same day, the 70th week would start, just like with Noah.

I had come to this conclusion before I got Resenthal's book. I believe the great earthquake at the 6th seal, is a great shaking in the physical realm, because of the great shaking that the rapture will cause in the spiritual realm. I have no doubt that the rapture of the church will shake the world like nothing that has ever happened. Can you imagine the United States, if the president disappeared, maybe 1/4th of the cabinet and 1/4 to 1/2 of congress disappeared, and perhaps almost half the population? Business would come to a stand still; transportation would follow. At least there is some scripture (Noah) and some logic with having the rapture here, although I will not be dogmatic about it.

Rosenthal, however, had no revelation about the 70th week, and thought it would start at the classical place of the first seal. I disagree with him here. He did an awesome job of showing "convergence" at the sixth seal, for the cosmic disturbances, the earthquake, the day of His wrath, the 144,000 sealed, and the great multitude. I agree with most of this "convergence, since the scriptures do also.

Rather than just take Scofield's word for it, we need to find scriptures to show where the 70th week is to begin. There are a multitude of scriptures that point to the 7th seal, and NONE that point to the first seal.

I have given three good scriptures that show proof that the first seal is not the antichrist. You, on the other hand, have shown none, for there is none to show. And you have failed to even make a showing on discussing the scriptures that I have listed. For example, God had John write about the scroll, and no man found worthy, and then suddenly a man found worthy, to show us the timing of when Jesus got the scroll into his hands. Next, I showed that the four horsemen do NOT ride together, but rather, the first rides alone.

Now I will give you yet one more reason. If these four ride together as you propose, then the antichrist will be limited to 1/4th the earth, and that goes against verses in chapter 13 that says the whole world wanders after him, and his authority is over all nations. Therefore, calling the rapture at Rev. 4:1, and the white horse and rider the antichrist, sacred cows, is justified. It is backed by nothing but imagination. I will admit, it was Scofield's imagination, followed by many other scholars, but still, only imagination.

You mentioned some scriptures.

Dan.9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I agree 100% with this verse. Our only difference here is that I start the week at the 7th seal, while you want to start it at the first seal, which is about 2000 years off.

2 Thes.2:3-4 You and I are in agreement here, that the great falling away should be a great catching away.

2 Thes.2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

You and I are in agreement here also. We both know that the restrainer is the authority of the believers, which we have through the power of the Holy Spirit. When we are caught up, there will be a short period of time that Jesus will have NO part of His body on earth. We have His authority, and for that short period of time, it will not be used, for there will be no part of His body on earth. As an added thought, did you notice this verse:

Rev 11
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Did you ever stop to wonder why Jesus would take to Himself his great power? Would he not have already had it? No, the church had it! The church has had "his great power" every since He said, "all power has been given to me," and "go ye therefore into all the world..." Why the "therefore?" Because Jesus immediately gave His great power to the church. What is this great power? It is the Holy Spirit in and on or upon us, His body on the earth. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the "mystery" of God in the Gentiles, the church of Jesus Christ is closed: the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in, and there will be no more use for His great authority to remain with the church, so He takes it back to Himself. It is clear then, that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit in and upon the believers: His body on the earth.

Rev.4:1-2 As I have said over and over, this verse is nothing more that God calling John to heaven. There is not even a hint of the rapture here. It is only human reasoning. It really makes no difference if JOhn wrote this in 60 AD or 95 AD. We both know that the rapture did not happen then, but John was called to heaven then.

Quasar said,

That Rev.4:1-2 "has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture," show me your Scriptural proof, as opinion is invalid! If Jesus could reveal the entire vision of Revelation to John without calling him into heaven with the voice that sounds like a trumpet, tell me why He did so!

No no! The ball is in your court! You are the one that insists the rapture is here, so it is up to you to prove it. I am saying that this verse is nothing more that God calling John to the throne room. I also said that if God wanted to reveal to us the rapture, He surely would have, so that none would argue about it. But since He did not, then we should not try to find it in scriptures that clearly are saying something else. Really, we don't need to prove where the rapture is. Again, as I said before, is not God allowed to call someone to heaven, without His church calling it " the rapture?" God chose that way to give John the vision. That is all we need to know.

Quasar said

The purpose for determining when the rapture of the Church will take place has everything to do with THE DAY OF THE LORD, the subject of this thread, because it is the very first scenario that will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the Day of the Lord!

Hmm. Exactly as Rosenthal said, and what I mentioned about that above. It seems that the day of the Lord and the rapture of the church may be closely linked together. Therefore, it would behoove us to find out when the day of the Lord will start. Hmmm. Joel tells us. The sixth seal, and the cosmic signs, tells us that the day of the Lord is about to start. What comes next? The seventh seal. Just what I have been saying. However, I believe the 70th week starts there also.

There is a small reference that may tell us a little about the rapture. When Jesus died, it is written that many graves were opened, and people were resurrected. What did they do? Did they immediately float into the sky? No, it says they "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." It is possible that we might get to hang around a short while, and show off our new resurrection bodies! If so, this would surely make some of the Jews jealous!

Quasar said,

That "God never intended it" [The rapture] at the Rev.4:1-2 point, is nothing more than your unsupportable opinion!

My opinion here is no more "unsupported" than is your opinion supported. This verse is no more that God calling John up to heaven, to show him things that will be hereafter. If this is also to represent the rapture, then we also will be called to heaven to be shown things that will be "hereafter."

Quasar said,

3. That the "Holy Spirit revealed that to me," i.e., where the mid-point of the tribulation is, please tell me what you think the reason is for the Holy Spirit providing some of us with the gift of Prophecy and that it differs from that "which He revealed to you?" Are you sure you heard what He "told you?"

Yes, I am very confident in what He told me. I guess what we should be asking is, "what is the proper response when a brother or sister in the Lord says, 'God told me.........'"

How would you answer that? Since I have heard many many sermons from a man that had numerous visions and visits from Jesus, and was himself called up to heaven, I know how I would answer that. When someone says, "God told me..." I listen closely! Then I compare it with scripture. If it doesn't fit with my understanding, I meditate on that scripture until I get some revelation on it myself. ABout the man I mentioned, I have never found one place where he missed it, as far as I can tell.

So if what I have written that I said came from the Holy Spirit, seems off to your understanding, I would hope that you would at least meditate on it, and see if perhaps it is your understanding that is off, not what I have written. For example, the vision in Rev. 4 & 5. The HS told me that it shows timing. I agree (finally: it took me a while). I say that God showed John a time many years into John's past, to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. I ask that you meditate on this and see if this fits with what is what is written.

What purpose is the midpoint? For one reason, we then know what is in the first half and the second half of the week.

Quasar said,

You allude to the 7th trumpet judgement as a midway point, which would seem to me, according to the text, more likely to match the final phases of the tribulation, rather than a midway point, of Rev.11:15, together with Rev.19:11-16. As I have stated before, Revelation is not written in a linear chronological order at all.

Why would you think that John did not write chronologically? Can you point to some place that you think does not fit? Does it make sense to you that if John mentions some event that starts at the midpoint, and goes to the end, and mentions 42 months, then that must be close to the midpoint? The HS told me that these are clues to the exact midpoint. It makes sense to me.

Coop

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

Quote by Coop:

>>>My opinion here is no more "unsupported" than is your opinion supported. This verse is no more that God calling John up to heaven, to show him things that will be hereafter. If this is also to represent the rapture, then we also will be called to heaven to be shown things that will be "hereafter."<<<


Q: Then let's see what entitles you to your dogmatic distortion of the Scriptures you try to make everyone believe by osmosis! You have no respect for anyone with credentials to teach/preach the Word of God, because in your 'puffed up' opinion of yourself, you are fully convinced there is only one right answer to eschatology, which comes only from you!

Step down junior and give it a rest!

 

[golfjack]

reply

My 2 cents worth: I do believe in the rapture of the Church. 1 Cor. 15:51-52, which is similar to 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Jesus comes in the clouds to meet the dead and alive in Christ. The archangel will blow the trumpant. I believe everyone on earth will hear the trumpet, and many will know that they must accept Christ then (especially the Jews). Romans 11:25 says that all Israel will be saved after their eyes are opened.

After reading Ezekiel 38 and 39 I believe when Russia and the Arab Nations start to attack Israel, get ready because we are going. The only question is when. What you are seeing in the Middle-East tells me we are very close.

The Book of Revelation should be studied in the past, present, and future. I take this book quite literaly, and has many symbols. When you see the word like, a symbol usually follows. well, this is my read on it.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Re: The Day of the Lord

Quote by Coop:

>>>My opinion here is no more "unsupported" than is your opinion supported. This verse is no more that God calling John up to heaven, to show him things that will be hereafter. If this is also to represent the rapture, then we also will be called to heaven to be shown things that will be "hereafter."<<<


Q: Then let's see what entitles you to your dogmatic distortion of the Scriptures you try to make everyone believe by osmosis! You have no respect for anyone with credentials to teach/preach the Word of God, because in your 'puffed up' opinion of yourself, you are fully convinced there is only one right answer to eschatology, which comes only from you!

Step down junior and give it a rest!

ok. What have I been consistantly saying about Rev. 4:1? Let's compare to a commentator.

1. I said that the "after this" phrase was merely a "transitional phrase, that John uses to get from one vision to another, as if changing subjects. To make this mean, "after the church age" is to stretch it. John uses this same phrase about 6 different times, and each time as a transitional phrase.

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

1. After this--Greek, "After these things," marking the opening of the next vision in the succession. Here is the transition from "the things which are" ( Rev 1:19 ), the existing state of the seven churches, as a type of the Church in general, in John's time, to "the things which shall be hereafter," namely, in relation to the time when John wrote.

(emphasis added)

Sorry, but Jamieson, Fausset & Brown say absolutely nothing about the rapture here at this verse. He does though, say this: " but John is transported in vision through an open door up into heaven, whence he can see things passing on earth or in heaven, according as the scenes of the several visions require." (emphasis added)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -7875.html

Matthew Henry

After this, that is, not only "after I had seen the vision of Christ walking in the midst of the golden candlesticks,’’ but "after I had taken his messages from his mouth, and written and sent them to the several churches, according to his command, after this I had another vision.’’

I think Jamieson, Fausset & Brown did a better job with the "after this." I doubt that John has written down the messages to the churches, and "mailed" then off yet, although it is possible.

Matthew Henry

1. A door was opened in heaven. Hence we learn, (1.) Whatever is transacted on earth is first designed and settled in heaven; there is the model of all the works of God; all of them are therefore before his eye, and he lets the inhabitants of heaven see as much of them as is fit for them. (2.) We can know nothing of future events but what God is pleased to discover to us; they are within the veil, till God opens the door. But, (3.) So far as God reveals his designs to us we may and ought to receive them, and not pretend to be wise above what is revealed.

(emphasis added)

I'm beginning to like this guy! He understands revelation knowledge: not human wisdom, but wisdom or understanding that has been revealed.
Matthew Henry

2. To prepare John for the vision, a trumpet was sounded, and he was called up into heaven, to have a sight there of the things which were to be hereafter. He was called into the third heavens. (1.) There is a way opened into the holiest of all, into which the sons of God may enter by faith and holy affections now, in their spirits when they die, and in their whole persons at the last day. (2.) We must not intrude into the secret of God’s presence, but stay till we are called up to it.

(emphasis added)

How interesting that this learned gentleman can't even read! Even in the Greek, there was no trumpet sounded! How can he say this? It says it was a voice, and it said words, "come up hither..." A trumpet cannot enunciate words! Can you see now why we must trust the Holy Spirit, and not human wisdom? Weymouth has a very good translation here: "the voice that I had previously heard, which resembled the blast of a trumpet, again spoke to me..." I could find no translation that said "a trumpet was sounded."

Matthew Henry

3. To prepare for this vision, the apostle was in the Spirit. He was in a rapture, as before (ch. 1:10), whether in the body or out of the body we cannot tell; perhaps he himself could not; however all bodily actions and sensations were for a time suspended, and his spirit was possessed with the spirit of prophecy, and wholly under a divine influence. The more we abstract ourselves from all corporeal things the more fit we are for communion with God; the body is a veil, a cloud, and clog to the mind in its transactions with God. We should as it were forget it when we go in before the Lord in duty, and be willing to drop it, that we may go up to him in heaven. This was the apparatus to the vision.

(emphasis added)

Now amazing! He even uses the word "rapture" here! Pass the salt please: I am going to eat my hat! Oh! Wait: it is just John! He is "in the spirit" as in the first chapter. I have been "in the spirit," so I know exactly what he is speaking about.

There you have it: two well know commentators, and neither one even hinted that this verse should be interpreted to mean the church is raptured. Why not drop a believe that is simply not supported by scripture?

What about the first seal?

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

Compare Note, see on JF & B for Re 5:1. Many (MEDE, FLEMING, NEWTON, &c.) hold that all these seals have been fulfilled, the sixth having been so by the overthrow of paganism and establishment of Christianity under Constantine's edict, A.D. 312. There can, however, be no doubt that at least the sixth seal is future, and is to be at the coming again of Christ.

(emphasis added)

I must agree with the bolded portion of scripture. They make an interesting statement here, in referrence to the four beasts:

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

If the four living creatures represent the four Gospels, the "Come" will be their invitation to everyone (for it is not written that they addressed John) to accept Christ's salvation while there is time, as the opening of the seals marks a progressive step towards the end.

(emphasis added)

What do they say about the first seal itself?

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

2. Evidently Christ, whether in person, or by His angel, preparatory to His coming again, as appears from Rev 19:11, 12 .
bow-- ( Psa 45:4, 5 ).
crown--Greek, "stephanos," the garland or wreath of a conqueror, which is also implied by His white horse, white being the emblem of victory. In Rev 19:11, 12 the last step in His victorious progress is represented; accordingly there He wears many diadems (Greek, "diademata"; not merely Greek, "stephanoi," "crowns" or "wreaths"), and is personally attended by the hosts of heaven. Compare Zec 1:7-17 6:1-8 ; especially Rev 6:10 below, with Zec 1:12 ; also compare the colors of the four horses.
and to conquer--that is, so as to gain a lasting victory. All four seals usher in judgments on the earth, as the power which opposes the reign of Himself and His Church. This, rather than the work of conversion and conviction, is primarily meant, though doubtless, secondarily, the elect will be gathered out through His word and His judgments.

(emphasis added)

Please notice that they compare this horse and rider with the last one in chapter 19. In fact, they are actually hinting that this first rider is Christ also, but don't come right out and say it. The conclusion though, is that there is NOTHING evil about this horse and rider. Do we read anything about the antichrist here? Sorry, but no.

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

4. red--the color of blood. The color of the horse in each case answers to the mission of the rider. Compare Mat 10:24-36 , "Think not I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." The white horse of Christ's bloodless victories is soon followed, through man's perversion of the Gospel, by the red horse of bloodshed; but this is overruled to the clearing away of the obstacles to Christ's coming kingdom. The patient ox is the emblem of the second living creature who, at the opening of this seal, saith, "Come." The saints amidst judgments on the earth in patience "endure to the end."

(emphasis added)

Again we see that they associate this first horse to Christ. Indeed, he, the first rider, is closely associated with Christ, as the horse and rider are to represent the church of Jesus Christ, and the gospel which is to be preached in the whole world.

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

8. pale--"livid" [ALFORD].
Death--personified.
Hell--Hades personified.
unto them--Death and Hades. So A, C read. But B and Vulgate read, "to him."
fourth part of the earth--answering to the first four seals; his portion as one of the four, being a fourth part.

He completely overlooked the clue that John gives us here, the "them" to which the 1/4th pretains to: the sword, the famine, and death, leaving out the first seal. Even men who write commentaries are not infalible. How does Matthew Henry answer this protion of scripture?

Matthew Henry

The book of the divine counsels being thus lodged in the hand of Christ, he loses no time, but immediately enters upon the work of opening the seals and publishing the contents;

(emphasis added)

He makes a valid point, and one that I have stressed also: Jesus walks over to the Father immediately that he arrives back into heaven, and takes the scroll.

Matthew Henry

It is supposed that the opening of the seven seals discloses those providences that concerned the church in the first three centuries, from the ascension of our Lord and Saviour to the reign of Constantine;

How interesting that a learned comentator would make the seals history to us now! How though, could anyone say that the sixth seal has already been broken. There has NEVER been an earthquake that shakes the entire planet. As I said, even very learned men are not infalible.

Matthew Henry

v. 2. (1.) The Lord Jesus appears riding on a white horse. White horses are generally refused in war, because they make the rider a mark for the enemy; but our Lord Redeemer was sure of the victory and a glorious triumph, and he rides on the white horse of a pure but despised gospel, with great swiftness through the world. (2.) He had a bow in his hand. The convictions impressed by the word of God are sharp arrows, they reach at a distance; and, though the ministers of the word draw the bow at a venture, God can and will direct it to the joints of the harness. This bow, in the hand of Christ, abides in strength, and, like that of Jonathan, never returns empty. (3.) A crown was given him, importing that all who receive the gospel must receive Christ as a king, and must be his loyal and obedient subjects; he will be glorified in the success of the gospel. When Christ was going to war, one would think a helmet had been more proper than a crown; but a crown is given him as the earnest and emblem of victory. (4.) He went forth conquering, and to conquer. As long as the church continues militant Christ will be conquering; when he has conquered his enemies in one age he meets with new ones in another age; men go on opposing, and Christ goes on conquering, and his former victories are pledges of future victories. He conquers his enemies in his people; their sins are their enemies and his enemies; when Christ comes with power into their soul he begins to conquer these enemies, and he goes on conquering, in the progressive work of sanctification, till he has gained us a complete victory. And he conquers his enemies in the world, wicked men, some by bringing them to his foot, others by making them his footstool. Observe, From this seal opened, [1.] The successful progress of the gospel of Christ in the world is a glorious sight, worth beholding, the most pleasant and welcome sight that a good man can see in this world. [2.] Whatever convulsions and revolutions happen in the states and kingdoms of the world, the kingdom of Christ shall be established and enlarged in spite of all opposition. [3.] A morning of opportunity usually goes before a night of calamity; the gospel is preached before the plagues are poured forth. [4.] Christ’s work is not all done at once. We are ready to think, when the gospel goes forth, it should carry all the world before it, but it often meets with opposition, and moves slowly; however, Christ will do his own work effectually, in his own time and way.

(emphasis added)

He starts out with the impossible: Jesus in heaven opening the scroll, and at the same time on earth, riding the horse! Of course we know that God is everywhere, omnipresent, but I still don't agree with him! However, he goes on to compare the white horse to the gospel. Now he has hit the nail square on the head. The church of Jesus Christ takes the gospel to the world! "This bow, in the hand of Christ..." No, the bow, the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, is in the hands of the church, christ's body on earth.

He has got it right when he says that the militant church is a conquering church: "men go on opposing, and Christ goes on conquering..." This next thought is briliant, and I could never had written it so well: "Observe, From this seal opened, [1.] The successful progress of the gospel of Christ in the world is a glorious sight, worth beholding, the most pleasant and welcome sight that a good man can see in this world. [2.] Whatever convulsions and revolutions happen in the states and kingdoms of the world, the kingdom of Christ shall be established and enlarged in spite of all opposition."

As you can see, here are some very learned men, that have written comentaries that have been used for many years by very many ministers of the gospel. And for the most part, what I have been saying is in close relationship to what I see written by these gentlemen. Therefore, I can say without a doubt, that my position on these scriptures is, indeed, supported, while yours is not. As I said before, "sacred cows" (unsupport but widely accepted doctrines) die hard.

Coop

 

[Darrell dunn]

I read other peoples Books once in a while, but put their word in question as soon as I find a mistake.

And this man Rosenthal, Makes a mistake when he says that the flood happened on the day that Noah entered the ark,

Gen.7:4 & 7:10 Say that it was 7 days before it started raining.

My question again have you met satan face to face????????

God gives us 2 examples of salvation and being Spirit filled,

1. Is Israel crossing the Red sea, (salvation)
Then crossing the Jordan ( baptism in the Spirit)

2. Is Jesus dieing then being resurrected ( being Born again )
Then being filled with the Spirit ( Pentecost)

There is a time of commitment between the two.
God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.Heb.11:6

He dose not give the spirit at the rebirth, as a baby in Christ.

And there is a lot of wrong teaching about thisw.