Re: The Day of the Lord!

[Quasar]

Day of the Lord

Back to the subject for a moment:

The fact of the matter is, the Day of the Lord is seen differently by many expositores, and the issue will probably never be resolved until the return of our Lord. My personal view of it is the same as revealed by the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:2-3, which begins with the departure of the Church, first, and then the manifestation of the Antichrist next, followed by the tribulation.

Which is in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27 [Except the rapture is not mentioned there] and in Rev.6:2, where the rider on the first horse, the first seal of seven, is again revealed as the Antichrist who sets off the tribulation [Nor is the rapture mentioned there, because the Church, who is the One Body of Christ, by the One Spirit, have been taken out of the way, as Paul reveals in 2 Thes.2:7-8.

See http://www.linkjesus.com/dayoftribulation.htm

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

Coop,

I respect your opinion, but your argument isn't with me. You need to consider that an esteemed Jewish scholar like Rashi might just understand Michael and his relationship with Israel of old better than most contemporary Christian scholars. I will take the word of Rashi over Strong, Smith or Thayer in this case.

Check out the links, it can do you no harm. You might just learn something, as I have... and don't unestimate the power of Michael, as his power is straight from the Almighty. There is no explicit verse that states the HS is the Restrainer, but if you combine 2 Thessalonians 2:7 with Daniel 12:1, you get a pretty good "picture" of who the Restrainer is.

After all, he IS the prince of the people.

Also, don't disregard Van Kampen's knowledge of scripture and Biblical history. He had one of the most extensive collections of ancient texts, antiquities and ancient scrolls at the time of his death. Plus the fact that Rosenthal is a converted Jew (and was a proponet of PreTrib for over 15 years) should account for something too.

1. About the archangel, Michael, Vic: The first point about him is the fact that he is involved in the rapture of the Church, as seen in 1 Thes.4:16. In Dan.12, he is revealed as the great prince who protects 'your people,' Israel. In the second place, it is clear he protects the two ELECTS of God [For Israel in Isa.42:1 and 45:4: For the Church in Rom.8:33 and Col.3:12].
As Jesus prophecied in Jn.10:16 when He was ministering to Israel, He has other sheep [His Church] He must bring with Him also. That there will be ONE FOLD AND ONE SHEPHERD. Which will not be fulfilled until Israel recognizes Jesus as their Messiah, as in Zech.12:10, near the end of the tribulation. The there will be ONE FOLD WITH THE ONE SHEPHERD, and ONE ELECT.

Another point about Michael, is his involvement with the body of Moses, when he was confronted by Satan [Jude 9], when he took Moses to the transfiguration of Jesus in Mt.16:28-17:5, before his time to be taken out of Sheol [Where both the righteous as well as the wicked went in OT times until after Jesus shed His blood once for all [Heb.10:10].

2. I have a hard time understanding your logic, that it is Michael who is 'taken out of the way' [2 Thes.2:7], in view of the fact he has to be one of the commanders of God's armies from heaven. What could possibly be the reason for removing one of your generals from your army?

The restrainer of evil and lawlessness here on earth comes from the ONE BODY OF CHRIST, HIS CHURCH, BY THE ONE SPIRIT, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13. Neither God, Michael, nor the host of heaven intervene in human affairs here on earth until God releases them to do so. Which does not happen in our times, except when the Pre-Trib rapture takes place and the Antichrist is revealed. The Day of the Lord.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Hi friends,

To illustrate the facts pertaining to the Day of the Lord, the first place to look is in Dan.9:27, where God has conveyed a 490 year prophecy in terms of a 70 'week' period of time.

The text in Dan.9:27 reveals it to be the 70th and final 'week' of the prophecy, meaning a 7 year period of time, first referred to in Jer.30:7 as 'Jacob's Trouble,' or what we call, the tribulation.

Note, first of all, the 'he,' who 'confirms a covenant with many,' in Dan. 9:27 - is the same person described by the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:3 and 8, as the man of sin/lawlessness/wicked one - or, the antichrist. And is also the second 'he,' in Dan.9:27 who sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus refers to in Mt.24:15.

Second, is the fact that 'he,' whom we have established as the antichrist from the above, kicks off God's timetable that is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble, or the Day of the Lord. This is the same person who is seen in the very first, of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2, the rider on the white horse, who triggers the tribulation. [Not to be confused with the Rider on the white horse in Rev.19:14, who is Jesus Christ, who finishes the tribulation].

Third, it is at this point in time the Day of the Lord begins, from the text of Paul's 2nd epistle to the Thessalonicans, who were very concerned that Jesus had already come to rapture His Church, that Paul had taught them about in his 1st epistle, of which they were a part of, and they had been left behind to go through the tribulation.

Someone had sent them a letter over Paul's forged signature that the Day of the Lord had already come. Meaning, the tribulation, or the 70th and final 'week' of Daniel's prophecy had begun and they had not been raptured with the rest of the Church.

[THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING WHEN THE DAY OF THE LORD BEGINS].

Fourth, so Paul's statement to them was, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS ALREADY COME." 2 Thes.2:1-2.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of the tribulation.

In verse 3, Paul continues, "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the departure [The rapture of the Church] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

According to the Scriptures, it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace, before the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, and the most horrible conditions the world has ever known will take place. Mt.24:21 and 1 Thes.5:3.

As Jesus said in Mt.24:6-8, there will be wars, rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, earthquakes in various places, all of which are the beginnings of birth pangs, but the end is still to come. Therefore, it would seem, the six seals consisting of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is a parenthetic of the entire tribulation, which would begin at the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpet plagues.

In His love.

Quasar

There can be no doubt that the day of the Lord will start with the 7th seal, because of the prophecy of Joel, and the cosmic signs at the 6th seal.

However, you are about a mile off (and 2000 years) when you try to fit the first five seals into this end time scenario. Please consider that it was about 33 AD when Jesus was ask about the future. Again, there can be no question that Jesus did not start with the far distant future, i.e., the end times, but rather started with right then, in 33 AD, and included some events of the coming holocaust of 70 AD: the destruction of the temple. It was when Titus's armies surrounded Jerusalem, and then withdrew for a time, that the Christians, remembering what Jesus had said, escaped the city, and escaped death! So Jesus brief summary of the end times included the time of then, 33 AD and covered the next 2000 years. Please notice His phrases and timing words: bolded for emphasis:

Matthew 24
6 and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 `For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows;
9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;
10 and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

Did you notice the "then?" Jesus has not yet left the time that is now history to us. Then notice that verse 7 starts with "for." Jesus has not yet left speaking of " the end is not yet." So the "nations rising agaist nations" is history, and not an end time thing. The famimes and pestilences, the earthquakes, in fact the "beginnings of sorrows" are all NOT part of the end, according to Jesus! One just cannot, with good biblical exegesis, say that these verses are about the 70th week, still in our future. When Jesus gets to the abomination, then we can know without a doubt that he is speaking of the 70th week.

Many people have noticed the similarities between the second, third, and fouth seals, and this part of the Olivet discourse, and indeed, there is similarities. However, in the discourse, Jesus says that he is just not speaking of the time of the end yet. He does that when He mentions the abomination. We can look at both these verses in the discourse, and the deeds of these horsemen (leaveing out # 1) and we can readily see that these events are history to us now.

Add this this the fact that there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future, and then take the context of the first seals, which shows that they are broken when Jesus rose from the dead, and it should be clear to even an average reader that these events of the seals are in our past. We are waiting on the sixth seal, which will be the warning of the beginning of the 70th week and the day of the Lord. And of course, we are waiting on the rapture of the church that will take place at this same time!

Coop

This post of yours went by because I was busy with other more important work. The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2. You are the one 'who is a mile off!' The seventh seal contains the seven trumpet judgements and represents a time frame close to the middle of the 70th and final week of Daniel, as seen also in Jesus overview of the tribulation in Mt.24, and specifically vs 15, for the middle of the week.

The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time. in the same manner as the Scriptures reveal in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21. Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3! Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time. The only issues referred to as 'past,' are some of the early Church characteristics in chapters 2 and 3. The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place! In which there are, naturally, some that take place before others, as most of us can readily see and understand.

Matters pertaining to the destruction of the temple were covered in Mt.24:2. All that follows is the overview of the tribulation to come in the end times.

Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come. The 'Language,' of it comes straight from our Lord and anything contrary to it is totally non-Scriptural!

Don't hold your breath waiting for the other shoe [seal] to fall - because the rapture of the Church must take place first before the Antichrist is revealed and then the tribulation begins. None of which has yet begun!

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Hi guys,

I don't expect most to understand this, I didn't at first, until I started to look at things from a Jewish perspective. I believe that a qualified Jewish scholar, whether he was filled with the Spirit or not (who are we to assume he wasn't when he wrote his commentaries) would understand the writings of his people and to his people better than most Christian scholars?

Who is Daniel writing about? Who is the book of Revelations (which is very Hebrew in nature) about? I think Van Kampen's unveiling of this bit if information to be significant, just as you Q, take great stock in the findings of E. L. Martin.

Back to Daniel. We see in Daniel's book that Michael is already there for his people. (Daniel 10:13, Daniel 10:21) Again, see this for Daniel's relationship with Israel:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=michael

Now why, in Daniel 12:1, would he be called to "stand up" for the people he is already standing up for? As long as he is standing up for his people, the second part of Daniel 12:1 could not have taken place.

Daniel 12
1 ¶ And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the being of a nation until that time. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.

If Michael was standing up for his people, why is it that when Satan is cast down to Earth, the first thing he tries to do is go after Israel. With Michael in the way, how could he even attempt this? Rev 12 doesn't say Michael aids these people. Actually, Rev 12:6 says;

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Who is they? If it was Michael, it wouldn't say they, it would say he, or Michael.

As a matter of fact, the text in Rev 12 gives us the impression that Michael is still in Heaven. No indication Michael came down to Earth. The fact that Michael is in Heaven warring with Satan tells me he already left "Israel's" side.

Nothing in the text of 2 Thessalonians 2 indicates the restrainer is the Spirit. Daniel and Revelation is mostly about "Israel". Michael is their Protector. The Spirit is our Comforter, our Teacher. He doesn't restrain evel, he helps to deliver us from evil. (Matthew 6:13) No reason to restrain something that we are being delivered from.

One more thing and I don't say this with disrespect; if the Spirit is here to restrain evil from the world, all one needs to do is look around them. :-? He hasn't done a very good job, has he?

 

[Darrell dunn]

I do not understand why anyone would take a statement of SUMMARY ( a concise statement of the main points) Webster dictionary.

Like Dan.12:1&2 or Matt.24:13-22 Are THEN TAKE THEM TO THE BOOK OF DETAILS , Revelation and twist it and try to make it fit the summaries.

The book of Revelation is laid out in precis order, altho from deferent views. But it is the book of details.

 

[lecoop]

I do not understand why anyone would take a statement of SUMMARY ( a concise statement of the main points) Webster dictionary.

Like Dan.12:1&2 or Matt.24:13-22 Are THEN TAKE THEM TO THE BOOK OF DETAILS , Revelation and twist it and try to make it fit the summaries.

The book of Revelation is laid out in precis order, altho from deferent views. But it is the book of details.

Darrell, this is, without a doubt one of the wisest things you have ever said on this thead! WOW! Great job! Good biblical exegesis ALWAYS take the major scriptures on a subject, and then fills in with minor scriptures. You are exactly right in what you say, Dan. 12:1 is but a summary compared to what Revelation says on this subject. Again, great conclusion!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said,

This post of yours went by because I was busy with other more important work. The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2. You are the one 'who is a mile off!' The seventh seal contains the seven trumpet judgements and represents a time frame close to the middle of the 70th and final week of Daniel, as seen also in Jesus overview of the tribulation in Mt.24, and specifically vs 15, for the middle of the week.

The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time. in the same manner as the Scriptures reveal in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21. Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3! Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time. The only issues referred to as 'past,' are some of the early Church characteristics in chapters 2 and 3. The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place! In which there are, naturally, some that take place before others, as most of us can readily see and understand.

Matters pertaining to the destruction of the temple were covered in Mt.24:2. All that follows is the overview of the tribulation to come in the end times.

Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come. The 'Language,' of it comes straight from our Lord and anything contrary to it is totally non-Scriptural!

Don't hold your breath waiting for the other shoe [seal] to fall - because the rapture of the Church must take place first before the Antichrist is revealed and then the tribulation begins. None of which has yet begun!

Blessings,

Quasar

I challenge the readers to take note of how this is written. I will post just a few sentences as examples.

The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time.

What does Quasar use to back this up? He failed to even comment on the verse that disagrees with his idea here, and that I quoted: "the end is not yet." (Matt 24:6) What is Jesus meaning here? Just the opposite of what Quasar is trying to get us to believe! His argument is that verses 4-14 of Matt. 24 are all to be a part of the final week, yet Jesus said, "the end is not yet." Obviously, Jesus disagrees with Quasar. Jesus is referring to a time before the final week, else He would not have said this. Since Quasar included Luke also, in Luke 21 we read: "the end is not by and by." This is hard to get a grasp on, since we don't use such terms, so here it is in the NKJV: "but the end will not come immediately.†And in Youngs: "but the end [is] not immediately." So in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling us that these things he is speaking of, such as "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," are not to be assiciated with the final week! The end will not come "immediately" after these things. And just as Jesus said, we have had almost 2000 years of wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the end did not come immediately!

Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3

Did Quasar read Rev. 1:19, where John was told to write past tense events? "Write the things that thou hast seen..." And then the present tense events for John; that would be around 95 AD: "and the things which are..." Therefore, there is no wording here that would prove that the Olivet discourse was all speaking of future events; on the contrary, these words seem to prove that Jesus covered the entire history of the church.

Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time.

Is this statement true? What about REv 12:2
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This verse is, without a doubt, in reference to the birth of Jesus Christ, around 1 BC.

The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place!

Again, Quasar has forgotton "but the end is not yet." Jesus was not speaking of end time events here in his dialog, but starts the end times with verse 15.

Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come.

Perhaps Quasar could find some of this language that he thinks points to the future rather than the past. On the other hand, I have pointed out scriptures that do point to the past, and Quasar has failed to even comment on them. For instance, why was Jesus not seen in John's first look into the throne room? (it shows timing).

Quasar starts off with this:

The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2.

Dan 9: 27 mentions the 70th week, and also mentions the abomination event in the middle of the week. So far good. This confirms part of what Quasar is saying, sort of. he mentioned the "day of the Lord," not the 70th week. However, I believe both the 70th week and the Day of the Lord start with the 7th seal, so we will overlook this for now. The verse in Daniel confirms that there will be a "70th week."

2 Thes. 2:3 says "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..."

This verse is either referring to the "the day of the Lord," or the "day of Christ," depending on which Greek text is used. Paul is saying that "that day" cannot come unless two things happen first. One of these things is the revealing of the antichrist. For those that know what to look for, that is whoever signs an agreement for seven years, stopping the attacks against Israel that we have seen for so long, and undoubtedly also allowing the Jews to build their temple, then the antichrist will be "revealed" to them. After this contract or covenant is signed, the 70th week will begin. I suspect Quasar and I are in agreement here.

Next, after the Thes. verses, Quasar lists "Rev.6:2," which is the rider and the white horse, just as if this rider has something to do with the 70th week. It is here that I will take exception. for there is no scripture anywhere that links this rider with the antichrist. Period. This is just imagination, with no scriptural backing. On the other hand, there is scripture showing that this rider and horse are the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer the world, making disciples of all nations, way back about 33 AD.

Therefore, writing to the readers, would you assume a meaning not backed up by scripture, just because it seems to be popular, or will you go by what is written?"

Perhaps, if Quasar is in disagreement, he can show scripturally why the white horse cannot be the church, or why the earlier verses in the Olivet discourse cannot be history to us now, rather than just making bold statements with nothing to back them up.

Coop

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

Hi guys,

I don't expect most to understand this, I didn't at first, until I started to look at things from a Jewish perspective. I believe that a qualified Jewish scholar, whether he was filled with the Spirit or not (who are we to assume he wasn't when he wrote his commentaries) would understand the writings of his people and to his people better than most Christian scholars?

Who is Daniel writing about? Who is the book of Revelations (which is very Hebrew in nature) about? I think Van Kampen's unveiling of this bit if information to be significant, just as you Q, take great stock in the findings of E. L. Martin.

Back to Daniel. We see in Daniel's book that Michael is already there for his people. (Daniel 10:13, Daniel 10:21) Again, see this for Daniel's relationship with Israel:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=michael

Now why, in Daniel 12:1, would he be called to "stand up" for the people he is already standing up for? As long as he is standing up for his people, the second part of Daniel 12:1 could not have taken place.

Daniel 12
1 ¶ And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the being of a nation until that time. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.

If Michael was standing up for his people, why is it that when Satan is cast down to Earth, the first thing he tries to do is go after Israel. With Michael in the way, how could he even attempt this? Rev 12 doesn't say Michael aids these people. Actually, Rev 12:6 says;

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Who is they? If it was Michael, it wouldn't say they, it would say he, or Michael.

As a matter of fact, the text in Rev 12 gives us the impression that Michael is still in Heaven. No indication Michael came down to Earth. The fact that Michael is in Heaven warring with Satan tells me he already left "Israel's" side.

Nothing in the text of 2 Thessalonians 2 indicates the restrainer is the Spirit. Daniel and Revelation is mostly about "Israel". Michael is their Protector. The Spirit is our Comforter, our Teacher. He doesn't restrain evel, he helps to deliver us from evil. (Matthew 6:13) No reason to restrain something that we are being delivered from.

One more thing and I don't say this with disrespect; if the Spirit is here to restrain evil from the world, all one needs to do is look around them. :-? He hasn't done a very good job, has he?

With all due respect, Vic,

The following Jewish organizations are all Pre-Trib and fully endorse the very same eschatology I do. They are, http://www.jewsforjesus.org, Zola Levitt @ http://www.levitt.com and Yacov Rambsel @ http://yacovrambsel.com. Like everyone else, the Jewish people have a diversity of views and one or two of them doesn't support your position. The same in Judaism, there are at least three divisions of belief.

As for Dr. Martin, my only support for him is in his astro scientific research and work as well in his amazing studies in Christian history. There are things I do not agree with him on. Those whom I hold the greatest respect for are the Late Dr. John Walvoord, Dr. Dwight Pentecost, Dr. Harold Wilmington and Dr. Thomas Ice together with Dr. Charles Stanley. Even in these great teachers and theologians, there are some things I am in disagreement with them about. But they all have my greatest respect. As does Moishe Rosen, the founder of Jews for Jesus, Zola Levitt and Yacov Rambsel

Michael is mentioned in the prophecy in Dan.12:1 which is the same event as the one Jesus prophecied about in Rev.12:7, where it reveals what he 'arose' [NIV] for; to fight with Satan and his angels, with his own angels and defeat them. The two prophecies are one and each the same time frame scenario. Satan doesn't 'go after' the 'offspring of the woman,' until after he has been hurled to the earth [Rev.12:17].

You ask who is 'THEY' in Rev.12:6; it is all of the offspring of the woman who fled to the hiding place in the desert: They are ISRAEL. What's your point? The only thing Michael has to do in that passage of Scripture in Rev.12, is to throw Satan and his angels out of heaven to the earth [Rev.12:9]. You're right, Michael is in heaven and there is nothing in the Scriptures that say anything at all about him coming to the earth. Nor is there anything in the Scriptures that say anything about Michael being at Israel's side, except in Dan.12:1 where it states that 'he protects your [Daniel's] people, Israel.

It should be obviously clear that there are two spiritual elements involved in the world since God created it, and they are GOOD and EVIL. God, who is the Holy Spirit is the GOOD, while Satan is the EVIL. It should be equally clear, all of us who belong to Christ, have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, as seen in Eph.1:13-14, as well as in a number of other places. Therefore, the "he" who is the 'restrainer' in 2 Thes.2:7, can only be the One Body of Christ, His Church, by the One [Holy] Spirit, as I pointed out in my previous post. God, the Holy Spirt IS NOT TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Michael is the 'protector' of Israel, not the Church, as in Dan.12:1. Although, he does take part in the rapture of the Church, in 1 Thes.4:16. Which signifies there are two ELECTS of God, until Israel recognizes Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the tribulation, in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5. Then there will be only ONE ELECT OF GOD, as in Jn.10:16.

The 'Comforter' is the Holy Spirit Jesus received from God, the Holy Spirit when He was incarnated, in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Not another 'person.' See Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 20:21-22, Acts 2:1-3, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13. That is why He said He had to leave or the 'Comforter' could not come [Jn.16:7], because it was His own Spirit His Father sent, as in Jn.14:26. There is no other restrainer of lawlessness and evil from any source other than the "GOOD" that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit within all those who belong to Christ.

Contrary to amillennialist beliefs, the Church IS NOT GOING TO CLEAN UP ALL THE EVIL AND LAWLESSNESS IN THE WORLD TODAY. The thousand years that was supposed to have been accomplished has been up a very long time ago and the theology was proven in error at the time of WW1, let alond WW2 and all such conditions that have exacerbated since then. Which is the very reason Jesus will come again, to put all such things under His control and provide the world with peace for 1,000 years.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[lecoop]

Re: The Day of the Lord

With all due respect, Vic,

The following Jewish organizations are all Pre-Trib and fully endorse the very same eschatology I do. They are, http://www.jewsforjesus.org, Zola Levitt @ http://www.levitt.com and Yacov Rambsel @ http://yacovrambsel.com. Like everyone else, the Jewish people have a diversity of views and one or two of them doesn't support your position. The same in Judaism, there are at least three divisions of belief.

As for Dr. Martin, my only support for him is in his astro scientific research and work as well in his amazing studies in Christian history. There are things I do not agree with him on. Those whom I hold the greatest respect for are the Late Dr. John Walvoord, Dr. Dwight Pentecost, Dr. Harold Wilmington and Dr. Thomas Ice together with Dr. Charles Stanley. Even in these great teachers and theologians, there are some things I am in disagreement with them about. But they all have my greatest respect. As does Moishe Rosen, the founder of Jews for Jesus, Zola Levitt and Yacov Rambsel

Michael is mentioned in the prophecy in Dan.12:1 which is the same event as the one Jesus prophecied about in Rev.12:7, where it reveals what he 'arose' [NIV] for; to fight with Satan and his angels, with his own angels and defeat them. The two prophecies are one and each the same time frame scenario. Satan doesn't 'go after' the 'offspring of the woman,' until after he has been hurled to the earth [Rev.12:17].

You ask who is 'THEY' in Rev.12:6; it is all of the offspring of the woman who fled to the hiding place in the desert: They are ISRAEL. What's your point? The only thing Michael has to do in that passage of Scripture in Rev.12, is to throw Satan and his angels out of heaven to the earth [Rev.12:9]. You're right, Michael is in heaven and there is nothing in the Scriptures that say anything at all about him coming to the earth. Nor is there anything in the Scriptures that say anything about Michael being at Israel's side, except in Dan.12:1 where it states that 'he protects your [Daniel's] people, Israel.

It should be obviously clear that there are two spiritual elements involved in the world since God created it, and they are GOOD and EVIL. God, who is the Holy Spirit is the GOOD, while Satan is the EVIL. It should be equally clear, all of us who belong to Christ, have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, as seen in Eph.1:13-14, as well as in a number of other places. Therefore, the "he" who is the 'restrainer' in 2 Thes.2:7, can only be the One Body of Christ, His Church, by the One [Holy] Spirit, as I pointed out in my previous post. God, the Holy Spirt IS NOT TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Michael is the 'protector' of Israel, not the Church, as in Dan.12:1. Although, he does take part in the rapture of the Church, in 1 Thes.4:16. Which signifies there are two ELECTS of God, until Israel recognizes Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the tribulation, in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5. Then there will be only ONE ELECT OF GOD, as in Jn.10:16.

The 'Comforter' is the Holy Spirit Jesus received from God, the Holy Spirit when He was incarnated, in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Not another 'person.' See Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 20:21-22, Acts 2:1-3, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13. That is why He said He had to leave or the 'Comforter' could not come [Jn.16:7], because it was His own Spirit His Father sent, as in Jn.14:26. There is no other restrainer of lawlessness and evil from any source other than the "GOOD" that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit within all those who belong to Christ.

Contrary to amillennialist beliefs, the Church IS NOT GOING TO CLEAN UP ALL THE EVIL AND LAWLESSNESS IN THE WORLD TODAY. The thousand years that was supposed to have been accomplished has been up a very long time ago and the theology was proven in error at the time of WW1, let alond WW2 and all such conditions that have exacerbated since then. Which is the very reason Jesus will come again, to put all such things under His control and provide the world with peace for 1,000 years.

Blessings,

Quasar

Quasar, a most excellent post! I could not have done as well.

Vic, just as an example of the church being a restrainer, the homosexual crowd cannot get their way here because of the church, and like-minded people. We are standing in their way. It is the same in Europe, to a less extent. What evil can do is limited to some extent, just because we are here. Only God knows what extent our prayers have on the world, and on the restraint of evil. There are times that I have prayed over a part of a city, and bound up the devil and drug dealing. I'm sure many others do this. I'm sure Christians in Europe are praying against evil there also. But it is not the church alone, but the anointing of the Holy Spirit upon the church! It is God in and upon us that is the restrainer.

Now suppose what it will be like when we are gone. There will no NO restraint on evil. We will be gone! The Holy Spirit will be here, but for a while, very few believers. (Some will become believers immediately that they find out they were left behind!) Then the antichrist can come on the scene.

Coop

 

[Georges]

I'd love to pick Zola's or Yakov's brain in regard to the Fall Feast day sequence and their relation to the 2nd coming. I wonder if they realized that in relation to the Spring Feast days (as occurring one day after the nect, bam, bam, bam) with Pentecost (Shavout) occuring 50 days (not years) later......How come the fall Feast days don't/won't occur in the same order.....?

Rosh Hashanah (Raising of the Righteous Dead) followed by Yom Kippur (the 2nd Coming of Christ) 10 days later...and the begining of the Messianic Kingdom (Tabernacles) 5 days later....

Why do these not occur days apart just like the Spring Feast Days occurred and were fulfilled?

The 7 days between RH and YK give plenty of time for God's wrath to occur.

 

[Georges]

Can't pick Zola's brain, I forgot he had died of cancer a couple of months ago... : He was a nice man and very cordial the few times I met him...

 

[Quasar]

The Day of the Lord

COOP WROTE:

Quasar said,

Quote:
This post of yours went by because I was busy with other more important work. The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2. You are the one 'who is a mile off!' The seventh seal contains the seven trumpet judgements and represents a time frame close to the middle of the 70th and final week of Daniel, as seen also in Jesus overview of the tribulation in Mt.24, and specifically vs 15, for the middle of the week.

The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time. in the same manner as the Scriptures reveal in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21. Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3! Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time. The only issues referred to as 'past,' are some of the early Church characteristics in chapters 2 and 3. The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place! In which there are, naturally, some that take place before others, as most of us can readily see and understand.

Matters pertaining to the destruction of the temple were covered in Mt.24:2. All that follows is the overview of the tribulation to come in the end times.

Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come. The 'Language,' of it comes straight from our Lord and anything contrary to it is totally non-Scriptural!

Don't hold your breath waiting for the other shoe [seal] to fall - because the rapture of the Church must take place first before the Antichrist is revealed and then the tribulation begins. None of which has yet begun!

Blessings,

Quasar


1. I challenge the readers to take note of how this is written. I will post just a few sentences as examples.

2. Quote:
The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time.


What does Quasar use to back this up? He failed to even comment on the verse that disagrees with his idea here, and that I quoted: "the end is not yet." (Matt 24:6) What is Jesus meaning here? Just the opposite of what Quasar is trying to get us to believe! His argument is that verses 4-14 of Matt. 24 are all to be a part of the final week, yet Jesus said, "the end is not yet." Obviously, Jesus disagrees with Quasar. Jesus is referring to a time before the final week, else He would not have said this. Since Quasar included Luke also, in Luke 21 we read: "the end is not by and by." This is hard to get a grasp on, since we don't use such terms, so here it is in the NKJV: "but the end will not come immediately.†And in Youngs: "but the end [is] not immediately." So in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling us that these things he is speaking of, such as "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," are not to be assiciated with the final week! The end will not come "immediately" after these things. And just as Jesus said, we have had almost 2000 years of wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the end did not come immediately!

3. Quote:
Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3


Did Quasar read Rev. 1:19, where John was told to write past tense events? "Write the things that thou hast seen..." And then the present tense events for John; that would be around 95 AD: "and the things which are..." Therefore, there is no wording here that would prove that the Olivet discourse was all speaking of future events; on the contrary, these words seem to prove that Jesus covered the entire history of the church.

4. Quote:
Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time.


Is this statement true? What about REv 12:2
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This verse is, without a doubt, in reference to the birth of Jesus Christ, around 1 BC.

5. Quote:
The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place!


Again, Quasar has forgotton "but the end is not yet." Jesus was not speaking of end time events here in his dialog, but starts the end times with verse 15.

6. Quote:
Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come.


Perhaps Quasar could find some of this language that he thinks points to the future rather than the past. On the other hand, I have pointed out scriptures that do point to the past, and Quasar has failed to even comment on them. For instance, why was Jesus not seen in John's first look into the throne room? (it shows timing).

Quasar starts off with this:
7. Quote:
The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2.


Dan 9: 27 mentions the 70th week, and also mentions the abomination event in the middle of the week. So far good. This confirms part of what Quasar is saying, sort of. he mentioned the "day of the Lord," not the 70th week. However, I believe both the 70th week and the Day of the Lord start with the 7th seal, so we will overlook this for now. The verse in Daniel confirms that there will be a "70th week."

8. 2 Thes. 2:3 says "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..."

This verse is either referring to the "the day of the Lord," or the "day of Christ," depending on which Greek text is used. Paul is saying that "that day" cannot come unless two things happen first. One of these things is the revealing of the antichrist. For those that know what to look for, that is whoever signs an agreement for seven years, stopping the attacks against Israel that we have seen for so long, and undoubtedly also allowing the Jews to build their temple, then the antichrist will be "revealed" to them. After this contract or covenant is signed, the 70th week will begin. I suspect Quasar and I are in agreement here.

9. Next, after the Thes. verses, Quasar lists "Rev.6:2," which is the rider and the white horse, just as if this rider has something to do with the 70th week. It is here that I will take exception. for there is no scripture anywhere that links this rider with the antichrist. Period. This is just imagination, with no scriptural backing. On the other hand, there is scripture showing that this rider and horse are the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer the world, making disciples of all nations, way back about 33 AD.

10. Therefore, writing to the readers, would you assume a meaning not backed up by scripture, just because it seems to be popular, or will you go by what is written?"

11. Perhaps, if Quasar is in disagreement, he can show scripturally why the white horse cannot be the church, or why the earlier verses in the Olivet discourse cannot be history to us now, rather than just making bold statements with nothing to back them up.

Coop
_________________
Acts 19:20: So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

Coop



RESPONSE BY QUASAR:


1. From one who is qualified to teach eschatology to one who is not, you are challenged! Your attempt to discredit others when you have no qualifications to do so invalidates your lengthy rhetoric expressing nothing but your own opinion. When are you going to learn how to discuss issues without attacking others?

2. As I stated before, the seals are an overview of the tribulation in the very same way Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are. Your assessment that the "end is not yet," [Mt.24:6] simply means the very same as in a hurricane, part of it has passed and sits temporarily in the 'eye,' until the final part of it passes through! In the NIV, it states, 'the end is still to come,' meaning, there hsad to have been a beginning! From Mt.24:6, Jesus continued all the way to His Second Advent to the earth! The tribulation is the seven year period of time set forth in the 70th and final 'week' in Dan.9:27, and Jesus revealed the 'middle of the 'week' by alluding to the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel.

Your ludicrous statement that Jesus disagrees with me pertaining to the time frame of the seven years of tribulation is nothing but your ongoing imagination and opinion! Please show us where Jesus doesn't agree with me!

You wrote, " So in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling us that these things he is speaking of, such as "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," are not to be assiciated with the final week!" It most certainly is a part of Daniel's 70th and final 'week!' The seven years of tribulation. You go on to further distort the issue with this remark, "The end will not come "immediately" after these things. And just as Jesus said, we have had almost 2000 years of wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the end did not come immediately!" Maybe you'd like to show us where Jesus made any such ridiculous statement!

3. One more time: The book of Revelation is in no way one of history, but is as it clearly states, "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near," Rev.1:3. Trying to make history out of vs 19 is pure imagination. It states the following, "Write therefore what you have seen [present tense, not history], what is now and what will take place later." There is nothing in that Scripture to imply past tense in any sense of the word!

4. Rev.12:1-2 is the sign of the Son of Man Jesus referred to in Mt.24:30, which is an ongoing annual event that takes place at or near the Jewish Holy Convocation, Rosh Hashana, their New Year they call the day of New Beginnings, and the Day of Trumpets. It is the exact time of the year Jesus was born. Which in and of itself, does not make Revelation a history book!

5. Already replied to previously. <SNIP>

6. You wrote, "Perhaps Quasar could find some of this language that he thinks points to the future rather than the past. On the other hand, I have pointed out scriptures that do point to the past, and Quasar has failed to even comment on them. For instance, why was Jesus not seen in John's first look into the throne room? (it shows timing)." I have answered your tunnel visioned question before, by telling you to read a little further, to Rev.5:6-7 and you will 'see Him.' Your concept of what you would see at the first glance of everything in heaven is not only very narrow, but also very unrealistic as to the ability for anyone to describe it.

As for Scripture that refer to the future, try reading Mt.24:3 for starters, "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, 'Tell us,' they said, 'WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN, AND WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE.'" You must read all of it to understand what the text is all about!

7. I have thoroughly covered my views about the Day of the Lord. If you still don't know what they are, then go back on this thread where they are and read them.

8. The Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 should not have been translated as 'falling away.' The original translation, in which there are several, should have been either, TO DEPART,' or 'DEPARTURE,' as it was originally, before the KJV was first published in 1611. I have covered this issue, on this site, in other threads previously, but obviously, there are still those who have not yet read it. Rather than posting it again, it can be accessed at:

http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/em ... 6_tice.htm

and click on The article by Dr. Thomas Ice, 'Is The Rapture in 2 Thes.3?' The first time it was translated DEPARTURE, was when Jerome translated the Greek Septuaging into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century! Apostasia is translated based upon the text it is to be put into. In 2 Thes;2, the entire context is about a rapture, not a falling away of the Church!

The primary purpose of the verse is the timing of the rapture of the Church. Immediately following, is the revealing of the Antichrist, which in turn is the beginning of the tribulation. The rapture of the Church signals the Day of the Lord. We are on the same page at this point.

9. The first seal what depicts the rider on the white horse is the very same person who Paul refers to in 2 Thes.2:3-4 as the man of lawolessness that the Lord Jesus will destroy - the Antichrist, which is repeated in vs 7-8. He is also the very same person who 'confirms the covenant with Israel for one 'week!' Your opinion that this rider represents the Church is one where you can act what you've been accusing me of, show me the Scripture that even comes close to such an imagination! The Church has never conquered the world, and never will. During the middle ages, when they thought the Church had replaced Israel as the Elect of God, with nine crusades to take Jerusalem back from the Muslims.

10. By who's authority do you claim what I have posted is not supported by Scripture? As I said in the beginning, I am the one with qualifications to teach eschatology, which you are not. Now if you have a difference of opinion - then state your case and face your chances as to whether they are debunked or not - and stop the childish attack on the people you are trying to debate with!

11. The rider on the white horse, who is the first seal, in Rev.6:2, clearly depicts the Antichrist, of Dan.9:27, who makes a covenant with Israel for one 'week,' and then breaks it in the middle of the 'week,' as he also appears in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. The first seal, kicks off the tribulation, triggered by the Antichrist! The Church has been raptured as seen in Rev.4:1-2. Now supposing you support your allegations with Scripture you think make this rider on the white horse, seen as the first seal is the Church!

Peace,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Zola Levitt

Can't pick Zola's brain, I forgot he had died of cancer a couple of months ago... : He was a nice man and very cordial the few times I met him...

I was unawares of Zola passing, and feel deeply saddened over the loss of such a great teacher and brother in Christ. His web site seems to still be in operation and think that deceived me into thinking he was still adctive. I used to listen/watch him on TV every Sunday when I lived in AR. But could never get him here in KY.

Your bro in Christ,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

I'd love to pick Zola's or Yakov's brain in regard to the Fall Feast day sequence and their relation to the 2nd coming. I wonder if they realized that in relation to the Spring Feast days (as occurring one day after the nect, bam, bam, bam) with Pentecost (Shavout) occuring 50 days (not years) later......How come the fall Feast days don't/won't occur in the same order.....?

Rosh Hashanah (Raising of the Righteous Dead) followed by Yom Kippur (the 2nd Coming of Christ) 10 days later...and the begining of the Messianic Kingdom (Tabernacles) 5 days later....

Why do these not occur days apart just like the Spring Feast Days occurred and were fulfilled?

The 7 days between RH and YK give plenty of time for God's wrath to occur.

I too would have liked to pick Zola's brain as well, especially since I am not PreTrib anymore.

The 7 days between RH and YK give plenty of time for God's wrath to occur.

George, aren't there 10 days between RH and YK?

Guys, thanks a loy for your comments, they help me understand where you are coming from. I too was a believer in a Pre Trib harpazio, but the more I studied this, the less it made sense to me. I am neither Pre Trib nor am I in any sense a true Dispensationist. After spending hours upon hours studying The Restrainer, I can find no direct reference that the Church or the Holy Spirit holds back the evil in the world. I do kowever, find plenty of proof that God has endowed Michael the ability to restrain evil.

Coop you say "the homosexual crowd cannot get their way here because of the church, and like-minded people." My only suggestion is to pay close attention to Current Events as they pertain to Christianity, namey what has been going on on some of the Mainline churches. (I'd start with the Episcopal church)

Like I said earlier, I too believed PreTrib. I know it can be difficult for some to "stray" from the ever popular presuppositions in favor of something that may be more Truthful. After examining OT and NT Sripture, I am satisified with the belief that Michael is indeed the Restrainer.

If you all are even the bit interested in other "theories", please take a look at these links.

The Archangel Michael restraining evil principalities.
http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm

Rosenthal's own words on this:

There is not a verse of Scripture anywhere that so much as hints of a diminishing of the Spirit's ministry during the seventieth week. Such arguments are made from silence.

http://www.geocities.com/doxa.geo/restrainer3.html

A thread from another Forum directly related to this conversation:
http://forum.bible.org/viewtopic.php?t= ... 2b9f1bc881

Thanks for hearing me out.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Georges]

Re: Zola Levitt

Can't pick Zola's brain, I forgot he had died of cancer a couple of months ago... : He was a nice man and very cordial the few times I met him...

I was unawares of Zola passing, and feel deeply saddened over the loss of such a great teacher and brother in Christ. His web site seems to still be in operation and think that deceived me into thinking he was still adctive. I used to listen/watch him on TV every Sunday when I lived in AR. But could never get him here in KY.

Your bro in Christ,

Quasar

It shocked many people...it was very fast...the obit is on the web....

 

[Georges]

The 7 days between RH and YK give plenty of time for God's wrath to occur.

George, aren't there 10 days between RH and YK?

They belong to the 10 days of awe....But, if you subtract the 2 days of RH and the 1 day for YK...you have 7 days separating...

Peace,
Vic

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said

1. From one who is qualified to teach eschatology to one who is not, you are challenged! Your attempt to discredit others when you have no qualifications to do so invalidates your lengthy rhetoric expressing nothing but your own opinion. When are you going to learn how to discuss issues without attacking others?

Who is qualified to teach eschatology, in Quasar's way of thinking? Of course, he is! So what really makes one qualified to teach eschatology? It is a list of degrees? No. Many people that started out with some faith, after seminary, lost what faith they had. It is common knowledge that many seminary trained pastors today, don't even believe in the virgin birth! We trust that this cannot be said of Quasar! John wrote this book, and he was an unlearned fisherman! The 12 Apostles started the church, and many of them were fisherman! Therefore, it seems that degrees are not what makes one qualified.

So again, who is really qualified? First one must be born again, for the wisdom of God is foolishness to those that are not born of the spirit. Next, one should be able to read. Last, one should be filled with the Spirit, and have experience hearing from Him. Without the Holy Spirit's help, we come up with man's ideas, from human reasoning. We must hear from the author, the Holy Spirit. The bottom line is, if someone understands a scripture, he or she is qualifed to teach on that scripture. If someone does not understand a scripture, they should not teach it until they do. I will let the readers decide who is the most qualified. Have I written "lengthy rhetoric expressing nothing but your [my] own opinion?" No, I back up what I say with scripture.

Quasar said

2. As I stated before, the seals are an overview of the tribulation in the very same way Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are. Your assessment that the "end is not yet," [Mt.24:6] simply means the very same as in a hurricane, part of it has passed and sits temporarily in the 'eye,' until the final part of it passes through! In the NIV, it states, 'the end is still to come,' meaning, there hsad to have been a beginning! From Mt.24:6, Jesus continued all the way to His Second Advent to the earth! The tribulation is the seven year period of time set forth in the 70th and final 'week' in Dan.9:27, and Jesus revealed the 'middle of the 'week' by alluding to the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel.

Quasar says that the seals are an "overview" of the "tribulation." I disagree, and so does John, Matthew, Mark and Luke. First, what did Jesus mean by "the end is not yet." What was "the end," in Jesus' mind? What does the scriptures say?

The question was ask, before the discourse, what would be the signs for the end of the age? It seems very clear then, that what Jesus meant by "the end," was "the end of the age." Let's look at this verse with this added meaning.

Matt 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [of the age] is not yet.

What is Jesus really saying here? I think he is saying that what He is speaking about, i.e., the wars, rumors, etc, were not signs of the end of the age. They had asked Jesus for signs of the end of the age, and Jesus was letting them know that wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes were NOT signs of the end of the age. And indeed, we can look back in history and see that Jesus was exactly right. The world has experienced these things over and over for the last 2000 years, and the end has still not come! (Jesus does cover the signs for the end later, when he mentions the cosmic signs that will be seen in the sun and moon, just before His return.) Therefore, It seems that the scriptures disagree with Quasar.

When someone says, "the end is not yet," does this mean there has to be a beginning? In this case, the beginning of what? The church age. Peter referred to their time as the last days, when he said: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; ,And it shall come to pass in the last days..." It is clear then, that the time of the "beginning of sorrows started way back then, around 33 AD. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was surely sorrow! This is exactly what Jesus said: "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."

Quasar said, "From Mt.24:6, Jesus continued all the way to His Second Advent to the earth!" Yes, agreed, but "contined" from what or where? He started with then, 33 AD, and covered the entire church age, as shown by the "but the end is not yet, for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

We agree that Jesus spoke of the middle of the week, when he mentioned the abomination, but I say that he never covered the first half of the week. He went from "the end is not yet," straight to the middle, jumping over the first half of the week.

In conclusion, let's think for a moment, what the disciples might have thought about this statement, "the end is not yet, for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom..." Just 30 or so years later, they saw the destruction of their beloved city. It would be highly unlikely that they did not think of these words of Jesus as they were fleeing Jerusalem! It is also very likely that they associated this great battle with Titus as nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. They were seeing Rome destroy the last of their kingdom. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that when they fled Jerusalem, they thought, "now these words of Jesus that we heard, about nations rising against nations, was not speaking of what we just saw, but rather will be thousands of years in the future..." (that is almost silly!) However, the truth of these verses must make just as much sense to them then, as to us today.

Coop

I will cover more tomorrow.

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said

Your ludicrous statement that Jesus disagrees with me pertaining to the time frame of the seven years of tribulation is nothing but your ongoing imagination and opinion! Please show us where Jesus doesn't agree with me!

I have already shown you, but you disagreed, just as I said. When Jesus said "the end is not yet," He was speaking of "the end of the age." What age? The church age. Let's take a close look at what Jesus said. I have used what is called "minute supplementation" from the great work, The Life of Christ in Stereo." Using the main text from Matthew, I added the other thoughts and/or words not shown in Matthew, but found in Mark and Luke, to "supplement Matthew, and to get the complete story of what Jesus said. Unfortuntately, I could not do superscripts, so I put the numbers corresponding to which Gospel in parenthesis. A (1) therefore tells us that this phrase or word came from Matthew, a (2) from Mark, and a (3) from Luke.

5 (1)For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (3)And the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
6 (2)And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars (3)and commotions1)see that ye be not troubled [or] (3)terrified: (1)for all these things (2)must needs be, [and] (3)must first (1)come to pass, but the end is not yet [or] (3)by and by. [Strongs: immediately]

Notice that Jesus said, these things must come first, before we get to the end of the age. Please notice that Jesus has not ended the sentence, but it continues with the prepesition, "for.":

7 (1)For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines (2)and troubles, (1)and pestilences, and (3)great (1)earthquakes, in divers places, (3)and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven..
8 (1)All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Jesus said in verse 6 that the end [of the age] is not yet, or it is "by and by" or it is not immediate. What is He saying? He is saying that these events, i.e., wars, famines, troubles, pestilences, earthquakes, fearful sights, etc, are NOT signs of the end of the age, for that (the end of the age) will not come immediately upon seeing wars or earthquakes. In other words, what Jesus is saying is that we will see all these things throughout the church age, and they will not be signs that we are at the end of the age, or in the final week. Jesus said that these things must come first, before we get to the end of the age!

9 (2)But take heed to yourselves: for then, (3)before all these [things], they shall lay their hands on you and persecute you, and] (1)they shall deliver you up (2)to councils [and] (3)to the synagogues and into prisons (1)to be afflicted, and shall kill you: (2)and

Jesus confirms this by saying again, "before all these things." What things? Before the wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. In fact, all these things happened to them by 70 AD!

10 (1)And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.(2)But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, (3)settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: [and] (2)take no thought befo
11 (1)And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 (1)And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 (3)Ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake,(1)but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (3)There shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Please notice the "then" starting this sentence. When is the "then?" It is the same time that Jesus has been speaking about; the time of the church age, and before the end of the church age: that is, long before the time of the 70th week. Finally Jesus mentions the end of the age! Although this was a comment to those standing there listening, it was also a prophecy to those living through the 70th week. On the other hand, it can be applied to every one of us, if we endure to the end of our life, and don't turn back to the world. For some of us living today, this could mean giving our life because of our stand for Christ.

13 (1)And this gospel of the kingdom (2)must first be published among all nations [and] (1)shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Again, Jesus has turned His comments to the end of the age; the church age. It is commonly believed that the gospel must be preached to all nations before the final week can come. I will not disagree.

15 (1)When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand (2)where it ought not, (1)in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand [and] (3)when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Finally, and I might add, suddenly, Jesus has arrived at the midpoint of the week. Did he cover the first half of the week? No, He jumped entirely over that.

It is also commonly taught that there is a parallel between this discourse, and the first four seals in Revelation. Again, I will not disagree.

6 (2)And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars [seal #2, the great sword.] (3)and commotions1)see that ye be not troubled [or] (3)terrified: (1)for all these things (2)must needs be, [and] (3)must first (1)come to pass, but the end is not yet [or] (3)by and by.
7 (1)For nation shall rise against nation, [seal # 2] and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines [seal # 3] (2)and troubles, (1)and pestilences, [seal #4] and (3)great (1)earthquakes, in divers places, (3)and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven..
8 (1)All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Again notice that Jesus calls these things, the "beginning." As Quasar has pointed out, an ending must have a beginning. Jesus gave this discourse about 33 AD. The beginning of sorrows started then. Stephen was martyred and soon after, many Christians were martyred. Rome loved to feed Christians to the lions. Then in 70 AD, more sorrow, as many thousands of Jews were killed, when Jerusalem was destroyed.

There is no wording in the first five seals that would or should lead one to say they are part of the 70th week. In fact, there are clues that they were broken way back in 33 AD. There are also clues that in the parallel scriptures, the first part of the Olivet discourse, that Jesus was again referring to the time long before the end of the age. Therefore, I will maintain that Quasar is in disagreement with both the seals in Revelation, and the Olivet discourse.
Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quasar said

You wrote, " So in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling us that these things he is speaking of, such as "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," are not to be assiciated with the final week!" It most certainly is a part of Daniel's 70th and final 'week!' The seven years of tribulation. You go on to further distort the issue with this remark, "The end will not come "immediately" after these things. And just as Jesus said, we have had almost 2000 years of wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the end did not come immediately!" Maybe you'd like to show us where Jesus made any such ridiculous statement!

I have shown this over and over, but to be sure Quasar gets it, I will quote it again.

Matt 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Mark 13
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

Luke 21 (NJKV)
9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.â€Â

I will stand firm that by "the end," Jesus meant "the end of the age." Notice the question ask of Him:

"...what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?â€Â

Jesus is telling the disciples that these events, i.e. the wars and rumors, the earthquakes, the pestilences, will come, but will not be a sign of the end, for the end [of the age] will not come immediately after wars and earthquakes etc.

Coop

 

[Darrell dunn]

As for the Feast , Jesus died on Wensday , buried before sundown

Feast of Passover Thursday

Feast of Unleaven Bread Friday

Weekly Sabbath Saturday

These Three No work allowed Three days Jesus was in grave

Feast of First Fruits Sunday Beginning at sun down Saturday When Jesus came out of the grave

Then the feast of Pentecost 50 days later, and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

Then there is a 2,000 year time before the Fall feast

Feast of Trumpets The rapture of the Church

Then 10 years represented by the 10 days between Feast

And the 10 days in Rev.2:10

The first 7 are the 7 years represented by the 7 days that the door on the ark stood open.

Then the feast of Tabernacles Jesus 1,000 year reign.

If you want answers you should ask God not any Man.