The Day of the Lord
COOP WROTE:
Quasar said,
Quote:
This post of yours went by because I was busy with other more important work. The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2. You are the one 'who is a mile off!' The seventh seal contains the seven trumpet judgements and represents a time frame close to the middle of the 70th and final week of Daniel, as seen also in Jesus overview of the tribulation in Mt.24, and specifically vs 15, for the middle of the week.
The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time. in the same manner as the Scriptures reveal in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21. Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3! Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time. The only issues referred to as 'past,' are some of the early Church characteristics in chapters 2 and 3. The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place! In which there are, naturally, some that take place before others, as most of us can readily see and understand.
Matters pertaining to the destruction of the temple were covered in Mt.24:2. All that follows is the overview of the tribulation to come in the end times.
Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come. The 'Language,' of it comes straight from our Lord and anything contrary to it is totally non-Scriptural!
Don't hold your breath waiting for the other shoe [seal] to fall - because the rapture of the Church must take place first before the Antichrist is revealed and then the tribulation begins. None of which has yet begun!
Blessings,
Quasar
1. I challenge the readers to take note of how this is written. I will post just a few sentences as examples.
2. Quote:
The seals are also an overview of events that take place over a seven year period of time.
What does Quasar use to back this up? He failed to even comment on the verse that disagrees with his idea here, and that I quoted: "the end is not yet." (Matt 24:6) What is Jesus meaning here? Just the opposite of what Quasar is trying to get us to believe! His argument is that verses 4-14 of Matt. 24 are all to be a part of the final week, yet Jesus said, "the end is not yet." Obviously, Jesus disagrees with Quasar. Jesus is referring to a time before the final week, else He would not have said this. Since Quasar included Luke also, in Luke 21 we read: "the end is not by and by." This is hard to get a grasp on, since we don't use such terms, so here it is in the NKJV: "but the end will not come immediately.†And in Youngs: "but the end [is] not immediately." So in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling us that these things he is speaking of, such as "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," are not to be assiciated with the final week! The end will not come "immediately" after these things. And just as Jesus said, we have had almost 2000 years of wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the end did not come immediately!
3. Quote:
Jesus Revelation is not a review of history, but rather a prophecy as seen in Rev.1:3
Did Quasar read Rev. 1:19, where John was told to write past tense events? "Write the things that thou hast seen..." And then the present tense events for John; that would be around 95 AD: "and the things which are..." Therefore, there is no wording here that would prove that the Olivet discourse was all speaking of future events; on the contrary, these words seem to prove that Jesus covered the entire history of the church.
4. Quote:
Everything Jesus revealed in Revelation from 4:1 through 20:15 takes place over a seven year period od time.
Is this statement true? What about REv 12:2
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
This verse is, without a doubt, in reference to the birth of Jesus Christ, around 1 BC.
5. Quote:
The issue you raise in Mt.24, are events that all take place during the seven year period of the tribulation, that has bnot yet taken place!
Again, Quasar has forgotton "but the end is not yet." Jesus was not speaking of end time events here in his dialog, but starts the end times with verse 15.
6. Quote:
Your assumption that 'there is simply no language in these horsemen that would lead one to believe their deeds are in our future,' is completely in error, as the seals are the beginning of Jesus vision to John of the events yet to come.
Perhaps Quasar could find some of this language that he thinks points to the future rather than the past. On the other hand, I have pointed out scriptures that do point to the past, and Quasar has failed to even comment on them. For instance, why was Jesus not seen in John's first look into the throne room? (it shows timing).
Quasar starts off with this:
7. Quote:
The Day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by the revealing of the Antichrist, as seen in Dan.9:27, 2 Thes.2-3 and 7-8 and Rev.6:2.
Dan 9: 27 mentions the 70th week, and also mentions the abomination event in the middle of the week. So far good. This confirms part of what Quasar is saying, sort of. he mentioned the "day of the Lord," not the 70th week. However, I believe both the 70th week and the Day of the Lord start with the 7th seal, so we will overlook this for now. The verse in Daniel confirms that there will be a "70th week."
8. 2 Thes. 2:3 says "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..."
This verse is either referring to the "the day of the Lord," or the "day of Christ," depending on which Greek text is used. Paul is saying that "that day" cannot come unless two things happen first. One of these things is the revealing of the antichrist. For those that know what to look for, that is whoever signs an agreement for seven years, stopping the attacks against Israel that we have seen for so long, and undoubtedly also allowing the Jews to build their temple, then the antichrist will be "revealed" to them. After this contract or covenant is signed, the 70th week will begin. I suspect Quasar and I are in agreement here.
9. Next, after the Thes. verses, Quasar lists "Rev.6:2," which is the rider and the white horse, just as if this rider has something to do with the 70th week. It is here that I will take exception. for there is no scripture anywhere that links this rider with the antichrist. Period. This is just imagination, with no scriptural backing. On the other hand, there is scripture showing that this rider and horse are the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer the world, making disciples of all nations, way back about 33 AD.
10. Therefore, writing to the readers, would you assume a meaning not backed up by scripture, just because it seems to be popular, or will you go by what is written?"
11. Perhaps, if Quasar is in disagreement, he can show scripturally why the white horse cannot be the church, or why the earlier verses in the Olivet discourse cannot be history to us now, rather than just making bold statements with nothing to back them up.
Coop
_________________
Acts 19:20: So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
Coop
RESPONSE BY QUASAR:
1. From one who is qualified to teach eschatology to one who is not, you are challenged! Your attempt to discredit others when you have no qualifications to do so invalidates your lengthy rhetoric expressing nothing but your own opinion. When are you going to learn how to discuss issues without attacking others?
2. As I stated before, the seals are an overview of the tribulation in the very same way Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are. Your assessment that the "end is not yet," [Mt.24:6] simply means the very same as in a hurricane, part of it has passed and sits temporarily in the 'eye,' until the final part of it passes through! In the NIV, it states, 'the end is still to come,' meaning, there hsad to have been a beginning! From Mt.24:6, Jesus continued all the way to His Second Advent to the earth! The tribulation is the seven year period of time set forth in the 70th and final 'week' in Dan.9:27, and Jesus revealed the 'middle of the 'week' by alluding to the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel.
Your ludicrous statement that Jesus disagrees with me pertaining to the time frame of the seven years of tribulation is nothing but your ongoing imagination and opinion! Please show us where Jesus doesn't agree with me!
You wrote, " So in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling us that these things he is speaking of, such as "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," are not to be assiciated with the final week!" It most certainly is a part of Daniel's 70th and final 'week!' The seven years of tribulation. You go on to further distort the issue with this remark, "The end will not come "immediately" after these things. And just as Jesus said, we have had almost 2000 years of wars, rumors, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the end did not come immediately!" Maybe you'd like to show us where Jesus made any such ridiculous statement!
3. One more time: The book of Revelation is in no way one of history, but is as it clearly states, "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near," Rev.1:3. Trying to make history out of vs 19 is pure imagination. It states the following, "Write therefore what you have seen [present tense, not history], what is now and what will take place later." There is nothing in that Scripture to imply past tense in any sense of the word!
4. Rev.12:1-2 is the sign of the Son of Man Jesus referred to in Mt.24:30, which is an ongoing annual event that takes place at or near the Jewish Holy Convocation, Rosh Hashana, their New Year they call the day of New Beginnings, and the Day of Trumpets. It is the exact time of the year Jesus was born. Which in and of itself, does not make Revelation a history book!
5. Already replied to previously. <SNIP>
6. You wrote, "Perhaps Quasar could find some of this language that he thinks points to the future rather than the past. On the other hand, I have pointed out scriptures that do point to the past, and Quasar has failed to even comment on them. For instance, why was Jesus not seen in John's first look into the throne room? (it shows timing)." I have answered your tunnel visioned question before, by telling you to read a little further, to Rev.5:6-7 and you will 'see Him.' Your concept of what you would see at the first glance of everything in heaven is not only very narrow, but also very unrealistic as to the ability for anyone to describe it.
As for Scripture that refer to the future, try reading Mt.24:3 for starters, "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, 'Tell us,' they said, 'WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN, AND WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE.'" You must read all of it to understand what the text is all about!
7. I have thoroughly covered my views about the Day of the Lord. If you still don't know what they are, then go back on this thread where they are and read them.
8. The Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 should not have been translated as 'falling away.' The original translation, in which there are several, should have been either, TO DEPART,' or 'DEPARTURE,' as it was originally, before the KJV was first published in 1611. I have covered this issue, on this site, in other threads previously, but obviously, there are still those who have not yet read it. Rather than posting it again, it can be accessed at:
http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/em ... 6_tice.htm
and click on The article by Dr. Thomas Ice, 'Is The Rapture in 2 Thes.3?' The first time it was translated DEPARTURE, was when Jerome translated the Greek Septuaging into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century! Apostasia is translated based upon the text it is to be put into. In 2 Thes;2, the entire context is about a rapture, not a falling away of the Church!
The primary purpose of the verse is the timing of the rapture of the Church. Immediately following, is the revealing of the Antichrist, which in turn is the beginning of the tribulation. The rapture of the Church signals the Day of the Lord. We are on the same page at this point.
9. The first seal what depicts the rider on the white horse is the very same person who Paul refers to in 2 Thes.2:3-4 as the man of lawolessness that the Lord Jesus will destroy - the Antichrist, which is repeated in vs 7-8. He is also the very same person who 'confirms the covenant with Israel for one 'week!' Your opinion that this rider represents the Church is one where you can act what you've been accusing me of, show me the Scripture that even comes close to such an imagination! The Church has never conquered the world, and never will. During the middle ages, when they thought the Church had replaced Israel as the Elect of God, with nine crusades to take Jerusalem back from the Muslims.
10. By who's authority do you claim what I have posted is not supported by Scripture? As I said in the beginning, I am the one with qualifications to teach eschatology, which you are not. Now if you have a difference of opinion - then state your case and face your chances as to whether they are debunked or not - and stop the childish attack on the people you are trying to debate with!
11. The rider on the white horse, who is the first seal, in Rev.6:2, clearly depicts the Antichrist, of Dan.9:27, who makes a covenant with Israel for one 'week,' and then breaks it in the middle of the 'week,' as he also appears in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. The first seal, kicks off the tribulation, triggered by the Antichrist! The Church has been raptured as seen in Rev.4:1-2. Now supposing you support your allegations with Scripture you think make this rider on the white horse, seen as the first seal is the Church!
Peace,
Quasar
: He was a nice man and very cordial the few times I met him...
1)see that ye be not troubled [or] (3)terrified: (1)for all these things (2)must needs be, [and] (3)must first (1)come to pass, but the end is not yet [or] (3)by and by.
[and] (3)when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.