Reception of the Holy Spirit

[lecoop]

Excellent study on this sort of thing...

http://www.biblebb.com/mac-a-g.htm

Drop on down to the section of Charismatics...pray..read and study..before one makes another comment.

Why? Is his opinion better than yours or mine? I wonder, did he ever speak in tongues?

As I have said before, if I need open heart surgery, I will find a doctor that has successfully performed it many times before.

Coop

 

[Heidi]

No one in scripture becomes filled with the Holy Spirit without the prescence of the Church. It is clear that belief is not the only requirement for someone having the HS.

"We become infants in Christ and discern the world with new eyes, learning, and growing in the Spirit forever"

Amen.

Thess.....Gotta make a point here in regard to your statement. The OT has many passages suggesting that the Spirit of God came upon, or filled people with it. In many instances, like in Samson's case, the Spirit rests on(or in) an individual, and leaves an individual according to God's will.

No baptism involved in these cases of OT Holy Spirit events. And, the OT Holy Spirit is the same as the NT Holy Spirit.

And, Baptism isn't a NT concept, it's was a Jewish practice long before it was a Christian practice...but that's another matter.

Valid point and one I am aware of. But in the Church age, i.e. nt post pentecost I do not know of anyone who was filled with the HS that was not in the prescence of the Church. For the most part the OT cases you speak of are special cases in which kings and prophets are filled with the HS.

Baptism did exist before Pentecost but Acts 19 makes it clear that it did not confer the Holy Spirit.

I was and so were most born again Christians I can think of. We all received the Spirit away from the church when we called on God alone. Jesus even tells us to go into our room and pray to our Father in secret to make sure we are not doing it to get the praises of men.

 

[thessalonian]

I was and so were most born again Christians I can think of. We all received the Spirit away from the church when we called on God alone. Jesus even tells us to go into our room and pray to our Father in secret to make sure we are not doing it to get the praises of men.

That's what I thought. Now if you can show me a nt passage where someone who was away from the Church recieved the HS that would be great. Show me one case where another follower of Jesus was not present when the Holy Spirit was recieved?

The part about praying in secret is not about recieving the Holy Spirit. It is an abuse of that passage to use it to justify something you cannot find in the NT anywhere. That passage is already speaking to people who believe. By the way it could not be speaking about recieving the Holy Spirit all by your little lonesome because the Holy Spirit was not given until pentecost. If Jesus was talking about going in to your room and getting the Holy Spirit then he was contradicting John. Do you think maybe people might think they have the Holy Spirit but they really don't? There is NOT ONE SINGLE PASSAGE in the NT with anyone coming up to an apostle and saying "I've got the Holy Spirit already. Got it by myself praying in my little room.".

 

[lecoop]

God in a box?

Are you saying that you believe God cannot give someone the baptism with the HS when they are alone? In your mind, does there have to be a verse for this to happen? Can God do something that is not written?

When Pentecost came to the US in 1901 or so, who was around that was already filled? No one. But perhaps you beleive that just someone has to be there - not necessarily someone already filled?

Coop

 

[Heidi]

Re: Which work of the Holy Spirit?

So when you received the Holy Spirit, were you with people or alone? God draws us in a myriad of ways, i.e., the laying on of hands, hearing the gospel, etc. But once we receive the Holy Spirit, it is only then that we become new creations in Christ because the Spirit transforms us, not we ourselves.

Heidi, can you show me a passage in the NT where someone recieved the HS when they were alone? Yes God draws us to himself in a myriad of ways, but I don't see anywhere in the NT that someone is filled with the HS when they are alone. By the way your above question is a typical tactic of avoidance. Show me in the NT where someone alone recieves the HS, i.e. becomes born again.

As I answered this question in the Bible Study category, the reason that the apostles talked about those they witnessed as receiving the HS is because they cannot describe experiences they don't know about! By your reasoning, then no one who lived after the apostles died could have received the Holy spirit because the apostles didn't witness it, which is abdurd. The apostles can only talk about what they see and know, not what they don't see and know. God decides, not people, when, where, and to whom He will send the Holy Spirit. You cannot limit or regulate God. He doesn't just exist in a church. He exists everywhere.

 

[AVBunyan]

What is required to receive the Holy Spirit?
Some of you believe that just belief is neccessary.

Thess asked me to comment so I am.

I do not believe that anyone's belief today can make anything happen. I don't believe that one gets saved or the Holy Spirit by believing - Our faith does not justifiy or cause God to give us the Holy Spirit. I believe the following (condensed version):

1. The sinner is dead in trespasses and sins.
2. God draws the sinner in time because he was chosen from before the foundation of the world - eternity.
3. The sinner hears the real word of God.
4. Then Holy Spirit quickens him (makes him alive).
5. The Holy Spirit spiritually circumsizes him (Col. 2).
6. The Holy Spirit takes up residence and seals the saint (Eph. 1:13).
7. Now the sinner becomes a saint and his eyes are opened and can now see spiritual truths.

I do not see the sinner getting the Holy Spirit just by his "powerful" believing (poking fun here at our "great faith").

I believed the sinner is justified by the faith of Jesus CHrist not by our faith or believeing. Dead men cannot see or believe spiritual truths.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Amen, Av! We cannot muster up faith from ourselves as Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But since none of us knows if we are called, then salvation is open to all who want it.

 

[thessalonian]

AV,

You didn't address the question. You commented on my post in the other thread. Please comment on the question asked in this thread.

 

[thessalonian]

Amen, Av! We cannot muster up faith from ourselves as Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But since none of us knows if we are called, then salvation is open to all who want it.

You can't even want it without his grace. We can't muster up want either without his grace. We are saved by grace alone. Yet we must want, we must believe, and we must act on that beleif. By grace. Grace alone is what saves.

 

[AVBunyan]

AV,

You didn't address the question. You commented on my post in the other thread. Please comment on the question asked in this thread.

Thess - I was very clear - how could you not see this? :o

The Holy Spirit is automatically given when God regenerates the sinner.

God bless

 

[lecoop]

Amen, Av! We cannot muster up faith from ourselves as Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But since none of us knows if we are called, then salvation is open to all who want it.

You can't even want it without his grace. We can't muster up want either without his grace. We are saved by grace alone. Yet we must want, we must believe, and we must act on that beleif. By grace. Grace alone is what saves.

So you are saying that salvation is by grace, and we access that grace through faith, and that faith we use to access the grace is given to us by God? Is this what you are saying?

So what if someone is not willing to accept this grace? (It seems that a large percentage fits into this catagory.)

Coop

 

[Heidi]

Amen, Av! We cannot muster up faith from ourselves as Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But since none of us knows if we are called, then salvation is open to all who want it.

You can't even want it without his grace. We can't muster up want either without his grace. We are saved by grace alone. Yet we must want, we must believe, and we must act on that beleif. By grace. Grace alone is what saves.

So you are saying that salvation is by grace, and we access that grace through faith, and that faith we use to access the grace is given to us by God? Is this what you are saying?

So what if someone is not willing to accept this grace? (It seems that a large percentage fits into this catagory.)

Coop

I'm saying that grace is known to us through the Holy Spirit which is the personhood of Christ that comes to us when we are born again. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the knowledge of Christ so that we can believe he is real. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we know he is real and that is faith.

A good example is if a friend comes to you and tells you about a friend of his named John Doe whom you haven't met, you have no reason to believe that your friend is lying. But if your friend keeps talking about John Doe and never introduces you to him, your faith that John Doe acutally exists begins to fade. It is only when you meet John Doe for yourself that you have personal knowledge of him and your faith becomes a knowledge, not just wishing and hoping. That is exactly what it's like when we receive the Holy spirit. We have met Christ for ourselves and our faith is based on knowledge rather than just wishing and hoping. That knowldge can never be taken away from us.

 

[thessalonian]

Amen, Av! We cannot muster up faith from ourselves as Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But since none of us knows if we are called, then salvation is open to all who want it.

You can't even want it without his grace. We can't muster up want either without his grace. We are saved by grace alone. Yet we must want, we must believe, and we must act on that beleif. By grace. Grace alone is what saves.

So you are saying that salvation is by grace, and we access that grace through faith, and that faith we use to access the grace is given to us by God? Is this what you are saying?

So what if someone is not willing to accept this grace? (It seems that a large percentage fits into this catagory.)

Coop

Grace can be rejected. Irresistable grace is the biggest fallacy of TULIP in my opinion.

 

[thessalonian]

AV,

You didn't address the question. You commented on my post in the other thread. Please comment on the question asked in this thread.

Thess - I was very clear - how could you not see this? :o

The Holy Spirit is automatically given when God regenerates the sinner.

God bless

I agree 100% AV. That's not the question. The question is does the sinner recieve the Holy Spirit the second he first believes if he is off in the boonies by himself? For instance in Acts 19 it clearly says that the disciples Paul runs in to believed. Yet it is clear from the text that they did not have the Holy Spirit until Paul conferred it upon them. The question is can we confer the Holy Spirit on ourselves and the answer seems quite clearly from the Bible to be no. Our belief must be presented before the Church. Show me a sinner in the NT Church age who was regenereted by himself? The question is clear. So is the answer so far in this thread.

 

[Heidi]

Well Thessalonian, I simply believe Jesus over you. I hope one day you will know that that His death saved you, not you, yourself. It's simply impossible to convince someone who has doubt instead of faith.

 

[thessalonian]

Well Thessalonian, I simply believe Jesus over you. I hope one day you will know that that His death saved you, not you, yourself. It's simply impossible to convince someone who has doubt instead of faith.

Well Heidi that's nice but in 3 pages of posts on this thread you have not shown me one verse where anyone recieved the Holy Spirit apart from the Church. I think it quite possible that some can pridefully not go before the Church and think they have the Holy Spirit. Note in this thread I have not defined Church as the Catholic Church. But you still stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what scripture clearly indicates in this matter. Quote me one verse that says "joe recieved the Holy Spirit off by his little lonesome". I will accept it from the mouth of Jesus or any apostle. Even from Luke and Mark. It's not in there. Seems like you are expecting us to believe you over the Bible which is the Word, which is Jesus.

 

[lecoop]

Paul

There is no question that Paul was born again on the road to Damascus. He recognized God in the brightness, but did not recognize Jesus. As soon as He did, Jesus became His Lord, and Paul called Him Lord. At that moment in time, Paul was converted. It is very doubtful that anyone traveling with Paul was a member of the church. Therefore, paul was born again all by himself, with no members of the church around him. Also at that moment of time, Paul received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Coop

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Paul

There is no question that Paul was born again on the road to Damascus. He recognized God in the brightness, but did not recognize Jesus. As soon as He did, Jesus became His Lord, and Paul called Him Lord. At that moment in time, Paul was converted. It is very doubtful that anyone traveling with Paul was a member of the church. Therefore, paul was born again all by himself, with no members of the church around him. Also at that moment of time, Paul received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Coop

No question? By what authority do you declare that he had the Holy Spirit when the Bible gives no indication and later gives clear indication of him recieving it. Did he have to recieve it twice? :o Perhaps you can show me where he recieved the Holy Spirit? It's not in the passage anywhere until when Ananias showed up. I call that a question. In Acts 19 we have believes and Paul asks them if they have the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't he just say, oh you already have the Holy Spirit. No problem. But rather he lays hands on them.

 

[lecoop]

Re: Paul

There is no question that Paul was born again on the road to Damascus. He recognized God in the brightness, but did not recognize Jesus. As soon as He did, Jesus became His Lord, and Paul called Him Lord. At that moment in time, Paul was converted. It is very doubtful that anyone traveling with Paul was a member of the church. Therefore, paul was born again all by himself, with no members of the church around him. Also at that moment of time, Paul received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Coop

No question? By what authority do you declare that he had the Holy Spirit when the Bible gives no indication and later gives clear indication of him recieving it. Did he have to recieve it twice? :o Perhaps you can show me where he recieved the Holy Spirit? It's not in the passage anywhere until when Ananias showed up. I call that a question. In Acts 19 we have believes and Paul asks them if they have the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't he just say, oh you already have the Holy Spirit. No problem. But rather he lays hands on them.

Great questions. We know that he had the indwelling HS because all Christians have the indwelling HS. We see this here:

Rom 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Salvation or regeneration and the indwelling HS does not come with the laying on of hands. They come by believing in the heart that Jesus was raised from the dead, and by confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord. Paul did this on the road. Therefore, he was born again at that time. The question was asked, "Did he have to recieve it twice?" Yes, indeed, Paul did receive the Holy Spirit twice, but for different purposes. First he received the indwelling HS for regeneration. Later, he received the baptism with the HS, when hands were laid on him. We see this principle clearly in the question Paul asked the Ephesisans: "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? He then finds out that they are not even born again - so he preaches Jesus to them, to get them born again. Once they are truly born again, then they are baptized in water. Finally, after salvation and water baptism, Paul lays hands on them, and they receive the "baptism with the HS." This is a second work of the HS, for a totally different purpose: the anointing to minister. There is the HS within, and we call that salvation or regeneration or the born again experience. Then there is the Holy Spirit upon, and Luke called that the baptism with the HS. The Holy Spirit Himself performs the indwelling and regeneration, while it is Jesus that performs the baptism with the HS: two separate works of the HS for two separate purposes.

Coop

 

[PDoug]

What is required to receive the Holy Spirit?

Some of you believe that just belief is neccessary.

John.7
[39] Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts.19
[2] And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

This passage in Acts 19 was after Christ had been glorified, yet they apparently had not received the Holy Spirit even though they believed in Christ. So it seems that while belief is necessary there is more. In context this passage and the one in Acts 10 where the Holy Spirit came to cornelius and company seem to indicate that someone from the Church has to be present.

Please look at the following scripture:

Acts 19

1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples
2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
7 There were about twelve men in all.

A characteristic of God, is that every individual who belongs to the Godhead (including the angels) is not only himself, but also everyone else in the Godhead at the same time - since they are all one and the same. As a consequence of this, the angels of the Holy Spirit are also the Holy Spirit. Therefore when the scriptures say that you are given the Holy Spirit via faith (Galatians 3:14), they mean that you are assigned a divine angel of the Holy Spirit who lives in you. It is this divine angel who is not only himself, but also the Holy Spirit, Christ, the Father, and everyone else that belongs to the kingdom of God. (Note: we know from 2 Peter 1:3-4 that the angel is divine, since it is his nature that a person acquires when that person has faith.)

Now the Holy Spirt has countless angels with many roles. Aside from the divine angel everyone receives when he as faith, the early Christians were assigned other angels that allowed them to perform the mysteries of prophecying, doing miracles, etc. It was these angels that Paul inquired about, when asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"