REDEMPTION (ATONEMENT): US vs THEM [the L of TULIP]

[GodsGrace]

Why do you need understanding ? Its appropriate to understand. Prov 4:7

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding

Also if you dont read my posts, you must not be interested in my views. When I want to know what a person believes, I read their posts, usually they divulge what the person believes, it seems like common sense to me.

Our discussions NEVER GET ANYWHERE.
I've read enough of your posts to know that you agree with a faith that is not biblical.
I've explained why many times.
And you think you're God that you could tell Journeyman that his soul is in danger because he doesn't agree with some atonement theory. How do you know for sure yours is the right one?

IS THERE A RIGHT ONE?

That's enough talking to you for this time.
Maybe a week from now when I recuperate from this "discussion".

 

[Iconoclast]

There are 7 or 8 theories of atonement.
How could it be OURS and THEIRS?

There is the truth, then there are defective ideas that contain a few aspects of truth, but mixed with major error that are to be rejected.

You mean the reformed have their very own theory??
Guess we'll soon find out...

The reformed have the truth taught in scripture of the Old and New Testament. The others have theories trying to see if there is some other idea that they can tolerate.

OK. You're not really addressing the atonement theories but LIMITED ATONEMENT.


Yes. Jesus died for everyone. Also for Judas in hell, except Judas didn't take advantage of it.

No...Jesus died for the elect persons given to Him by the Father. No more, No less.

Everyone that was every saved, past, present and future, was saved by Jesus' sacrifice.

Yes,,,true statement

I don't understand the sentence above that I highlighted, but it's probably not important to the discussion.

The theory of limited atonement is so extreme that some reformed cannot even accept it...I mean reformed theologians.

All biblically reformed persons known as Calvinists know this is the truth. Some have not finished studying it out.

Also, I think I could safely assume that you know that the Penal Substitution Theory came about after the reformation, although I know you don't accept this.

PSA is taught in scripture in the scripture before the reformation. Some try and detract from it with defective ideas.

Penal Substitution is necessary if one believes that Jesus died for a select few

If anyone understands that Jesus died for an elect multitude that no man can number...they follow through when they are properly instructed.

....He would have died in their place to appease a wrathful God.

1 John 2:2
...And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Jesus died for all men, just as Adam sinned for all men.

wrong....

Jesus was the solution for Adam's sin...so His sacrifice had to be for all.

Jesus is the solution for any sin that is forgiven. Many of Adams descendants have no solution for sin, that is why they are eternally in the realm of second death

John 14:16
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus died for all so that whoever may wish to can accept His sacrifice and spend eternity in heaven.

This is an unbiblical idea. men who do not seek God...do not wish anything.

We are saved BY GRACE through the instrument of FAITH, all 3 are gifts from God and He can offer this gift to everyone because Jesus died for everyone.

no , a made up idea.

John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Why must it have missed the mark if God offered the gift to all?
If God proposed from the beginning, to "elect" or predestinate who would be saved...
WHY was Jesus sacrifice necessary?

For the tenth time, atonement had to be made on bealf of those elect sinners saved.

"What the death of Christ accomplished" is not a real answer.

It is a real answer for those who search it out.

Of course the problem here are terms that are not even biblical.
Where does the NT speak of EFFECTUAL ATONEMENT?

Does every teaching have to jump through the language hoops you impose on it?
Are you suggesting it can only be true, unless it selects words, you offer?

God foreknew who would be saved, but, alas, it was still a free will decision.

false again..jn 1:13 does not speak of the will of man doing anything.

Not having a theological belief in free will does cause a lot of verses to be misunderstood.

Imposing the philosophical ,carnal idea of a "free will" causes many to treat it as an idol.

And certainly those in hell are not saved.

Good guess there!

So many means many, but the world means some.
A drunk wife - A full barrell.
(no can do).

If you do not want to understand it, no one is going to force you to get it.

RC Sproul
GRACE UNKNOWN
Baker Books
Page 165

"The value of Christ's atonement is sufficient to cover the sins of the world..."

His perfect sacrifice must be of infinite value.

It is all of that, no questions the worth of it.

 

[brightfame52]

Our discussions NEVER GET ANYWHERE.
I've read enough of your posts to know that you agree with a faith that is not biblical.
I've explained why many times.
And you think you're God that you could tell Journeyman that his soul is in danger because he doesn't agree with some atonement theory. How do you know for sure yours is the right one?

IS THERE A RIGHT ONE?

That's enough talking to you for this time.
Maybe a week from now when I recuperate from this "discussion".

Okay we will see what the Truth is on Judgment Day

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay we will see what the Truth is on Judgment Day

I wasn't going to reply,
BUT
Do you think it's your doctrine that is going to save you?

That would mean that only the reformed are going to heaven
and everyone else in the whole world for all of time is going to hell.

Stop and think about that for two seconds.

Try to allow God out of that box you have Him trapped in.

 

[brightfame52]

I wasn't going to reply,
BUT
Do you think it's your doctrine that is going to save you?

That would mean that only the reformed are going to heaven
and everyone else in the whole world for all of time is going to hell.

Stop and think about that for two seconds.

Try to allow God out of that box you have Him trapped in.

I believe whoever Christ died for is saved. Those who are lost He didn't die for.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe whoever Christ died for is saved. Those who are lost He didn't die for.

Well of course.
But theology wise God died for everyone, just like Adam sinned for everyone.
Jesus' sacrifice had to be big enough for everyone...and then whether or not a person wants to take advantage of it is up to them.

The problem is this explanation would explode your whole theology system.
This is why everything in reformed theology has its own explanations and even covenants are titled differently, and the wording that is used to describe them is not found in the wording of "normal" covenant language.

Just please don't judge person's souls.
Leave that up to God.
He's sovereign, remember?

 

[atpollard]

Well of course.

Not “Of Course”.

THIS …

I believe whoever Christ died for is saved. Those who are lost He didn't die for.

AND THIS …

But theology wise God died for everyone

Say EXACTLY the opposite things.
Jesus either DIED FOR THE LOST or Jesus DID NOT DIE FOR THE LOST … He cannot have done both.
We can disagree on which is true (and even still both be saved … we can even disagree and still both be lost since salvation is not a Theology exam). However, both cannot be TRUE. (At least, I am pretty sure that both cannot be true … God may have a giant paradox in the middle of his salvation methodology that we don’t grasp, but that is unknowable).

 

[brightfame52]

Well of course.
But theology wise God died for everyone, just like Adam sinned for everyone.
Jesus' sacrifice had to be big enough for everyone...and then whether or not a person wants to take advantage of it is up to them.

The problem is this explanation would explode your whole theology system.
This is why everything in reformed theology has its own explanations and even covenants are titled differently, and the wording that is used to describe them is not found in the wording of "normal" covenant language.

Just please don't judge person's souls.
Leave that up to God.
He's sovereign, remember?

So what I believe is simple, Whoever is saved, Christ saved them by His Blood, whoever isnt saved, duh Christ didnt shed His Blood for so consequently they die in their sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not “Of Course”.

THIS …


AND THIS …


Say EXACTLY the opposite things.
Jesus either DIED FOR THE LOST or Jesus DID NOT DIE FOR THE LOST … He cannot have done both.
We can disagree on which is true (and even still both be saved … we can even disagree and still both be lost since salvation is not a Theology exam). However, both cannot be TRUE. (At least, I am pretty sure that both cannot be true … God may have a giant paradox in the middle of his salvation methodology that we don’t grasp, but that is unknowable).

This is what I said:

Jesus died for the whole world...
for everyone...
for the sins of the whole world...
THE LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
(it can't be SIN, the sin nature - I think you'll agree)

So we can say:
THE LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

Jesus died for everyone, but NOT EVERYONE will take advantage of His sacrifice.

The reason He died for the lost is because WE WERE ALL LOST at one time.
But that doesn't fit in with your theology.
Not my fault.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what I believe is simple, Whoever is saved, Christ saved them by His Blood, whoever isnt saved, duh Christ didnt shed His Blood for so consequently they die in their sins.

duh?
Did you say duh?
In a conversation about Jesus hanging on a bloody cross?

Yes sir.
You surely do believe in a sovereign God.
Too bad you don't act like it.

 

[brightfame52]

This is what I said:

Jesus died for the whole world...
for everyone...
for the sins of the whole world...
THE LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
(it can't be SIN, the sin nature - I think you'll agree)

So we can say:
THE LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

Jesus died for everyone, but NOT EVERYONE will take advantage of His sacrifice.

The reason He died for the lost is because WE WERE ALL LOST at one time.
But that doesn't fit in with your theology.
Not my fault.

So its simple, you believe Jesus died for everyone in the whole wide world, yet you understand not everyone in the whole wide world shall be saved, so consequently you cannot believe that Christs death in and of itself saves anyone. Right ? Yes or No so it will be clear.

 

[GodsGrace]

So its simple, you believe Jesus died for everyone in the whole wide world, yet you understand not everyone in the whole wide world shall be saved, so consequently you cannot believe that Christs death in and of itself saves anyone. Right ? Yes or No so it will be clear.

Study the 8 or so theories of the atonement,
then come back and we'll discuss.

But, of course, the reformed might have their very own theory.
Oh. Right. It's Penal Substitution.
God is always a wrathful God to calvinists.
John Calvin wasn't such a happy fella either.

Sorry, B, I have a difficult time being serious with you.

Like, get a load of that crazy question you just asked.

Was Jesus the Priest of the NC? (New Covenant)
Was He a better priest?

If the OT priests offered sacrifices for EVERYONE,
then why shouldn't Jesus' sacrifice be for EVERYONE, if His is even better?

Was the OT a shadow of the NT or not?

 

[brightfame52]

Study the 8 or so theories of the atonement,
then come back and we'll discuss.

But, of course, the reformed might have their very own theory.
Oh. Right. It's Penal Substitution.
God is always a wrathful God to calvinists.
John Calvin wasn't such a happy fella either.

Sorry, B, I have a difficult time being serious with you.

Like, get a load of that crazy question you just asked.

Was Jesus the Priest of the NC? (New Covenant)
Was He a better priest?

If the OT priests offered sacrifices for EVERYONE,
then why shouldn't Jesus' sacrifice be for EVERYONE, if His is even better?

Was the OT a shadow of the NT or not?

Well from what I read of your posts that you have posted, you do not believe that Jesus Christ death in and of itself saved anyone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well from what I read of your posts that you have posted, you do not believe that Jesus Christ death in and of itself saved anyone.

This must be why I can't be serious with you.
Read my post to you again.
Then read your answer above.
'nuff said.

 

[jasonc]

In other words ,the sheep will hear my voice .. the goats won't .

 

[brightfame52]

This must be why I can't be serious with you.
Read my post to you again.
Then read your answer above.
'nuff said.

Yeah Nuff said

 

[brightfame52]

In other words ,the sheep will hear my voice .. the goats won't .

That sums it up Jesus implied the same Jn 10:26-27,16

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

All the Sheep for whom Christ died shall be granted the Gift of believing on Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[brightfame52]

Redemption follows Election, in other words, those who Christ came to redeem in time, had been chosen by God or Elected by God in Christ. Notice Eph 1:3-7

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we[Chosen] have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The We here in Vs 7 refers to the Chosen in Vs 4,

Now lets look at 1 Pet 1:1-2,18-20
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye[The elect] were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The Elect or Chosen in Vs 2 were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ Vs 18-19

 

[brightfame52]

Christs redemptive death is limited to, but effectual to, them that by it, He redeemed them unto God as Per Rev 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Now if one for whom Christ died isnt redeemed unto God, meaning converted to Him, then thats an shortcoming on the effectiveness of His Death/Blood, surely we dont want to be found among those who think such.

 

[brightfame52]

Christs redemptive death is also to the extent to concern them who have been Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4,7

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;