REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL AT THE SECOND COMING

[Jim Parker]

Why include Levi? It was their first time to ever be listed.

The tribe of Levi is not listed among the tribes which were given land because their inheritance was the tithe. (Part of it anyway)
But they are still a tribe.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is not very wise to contradict God by following the doctrines of men.

Please cite the verse in your sola scriptura which says that God will restore the Kingdom of Israel.

In your dreams.

There are 13 tribes of Israel named after the 13 sons of Jacob. (AKA: Israel)
1. Gad 2. Asher 3. Naftalie 4. Simeon 5. Levi 6. Judah 7. Dan 8. Benjamin
9. Manasseh 10. Ephraim 11. Reuben 12. Issachar 13. Zebulun
Levi is not mentioned whenever the scripture talks about the land given to the tribes because Levi did not get an inheritance of land; they got the tithe as an inheritance (some of it) and were spread throughout the land so that there would be priests available for everyone.

And it's not "in my dreams." It's in your Bible.

 

[Jim Parker]

What we find in the OT prophecies is that God will gather all the Jews from around the world supernaturally, bring them to Israel, cause them to finally see there true Messiah standing before them, cause them to mourn, repent, be converted, and then be saved by grace.

Maybe you didn't notice.
Jews have been gathered into Israel from around the world beginning in the late 19th century.
Their continued survival in that land, in spite of repeated attacks by their neighbors, is nothing is not miraculous.
Unless you are expecting some fantastic event like all the Jews of the world suddenly disappearing and reappearing in Israel or all the Jews being raptured into the air and transported for all the world to see. (Don't hold your breath in spite of what you might see on CTN.)
So the prophesy of Zech 12:1-9, IMO, are currently being realized.
The mourning of Vs. 10-14 are yet to come.

But said they would repent, be converted and saved by grace?
Citation please.

 

[JohnDB]

She and her descendants did not constitute a tribe.

Wasn't suggesting that we should. She was "raped" and as a result Simeon and Levi killed the men of Shechem.

The tribe of Levi is not listed among the tribes which were given land because their inheritance was the tithe. (Part of it anyway)
But they are still a tribe.

Agreed. But they were never really numbered either. And here we have 12,000 being numbered.

Also the redundancy of Joseph and Manasseh but the exclusion of Ephraim in the Revelation passage.
Then the order they are listed is somewhat out of order too.

It is interesting...
But I don't have an explanation for this.

 

[jasonc]

all males, virgins.

 

[Malachi]

To unequivocally state, with complete assurance, that such and such a vision means exactly "this" is, IMHO, a very good indication that the speaker is an amateur or even a fraud. To base Doctrine on them is the work of a fool or a charlatan.

It's a good thing you included IMHO since that is exactly what this comment is. While every vision in Revelation cannot be FULLY KNOWN what you have stated is pure insulting fantasy. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Malachi]

Why include Joseph? Why include Levi? It was their first time to ever be listed.

That is none of our business (although the reasons are there for those who wish to see). The question you should have asked yourself is "Why did I include Dan when God excluded that tribe?"

 

[JohnDB]

That is none of our business (although the reasons are there for those who wish to see). The question you should have asked yourself is "Why did I include Dan when God excluded that tribe?"

But the onus of proof is on you here.
Your post is"The Redemption of Israel".
So if only some of Israel is going to be redeemed I would think that you would have some kind of answer....

And when you use "what has happened in the past" as a reason but when I show that this is directly contradictory to proofs I show, your reply is, "That's none of your business".

So....
Just wondering what kind reasoning you are using for your conclusions.

There are 13 tribes.
2 listed in Revelation are redundant.
So that leaves 2 tribes out.
One tribe usually not included in census is now included.

And again your reply is "There are reasons for those who wish to see"

I'm simply asking what it is that you see.

 

[Jim Parker]

While every vision in Revelation cannot be FULLY KNOWN what you have stated is pure insulting fantasy. God is not the author of confusion.

No he is not. We can rely on our televangelists to fulfill that commission.
Basing doctrine on apocalyptic visions which are highly subject to interpretation is simply foolish, improper and the favorite practice of scoundrels, frauds and charlatans. They can present it as the "new deep knowledge" that the Holy Spirit personally came and gave to them. That's why ear-tickling televangelists and itinerant "prophets" use their highly honed spiritual insight into apocalyptic to astound and bewilder the rubes in the pews with their HolyGhost revelations into the heretofore unknown truly true truths of the KJ Bible.
It's a sure-fire money maker.
Suckers love that stuff.

 

[selihah]

Maybe you didn't notice.
Jews have been gathered into Israel from around the world beginning in the late 19th century.
Their continued survival in that land, in spite of repeated attacks by their neighbors, is nothing is not miraculous.
Unless you are expecting some fantastic event like all the Jews of the world suddenly disappearing and reappearing in Israel or all the Jews being raptured into the air and transported for all the world to see. (Don't hold your breath in spite of what you might see on CTN.)
So the prophesy of Zech 12:1-9, IMO, are currently being realized.
The mourning of Vs. 10-14 are yet to come.

But said they would repent, be converted and saved by grace?
Citation please.

Now I have been trying to tell people here lateley you need not worry about Israel, Yehovah in His great mercy and grace will defend us. You also may want to consider another translation or learning hebrew when it comes to understanding why and who Israel is, as your translation says, 'mourning' over.

From the Nev'im beginning at Zechariah 12 verse 9 - 11

... In that day I will all but annihilate all the nations that came up against Jerusalem. But I will fill the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with the spirit of pity and compassion and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son amd showing bitter grief as over a first born. In that day, the wailing in Jerusalem shall be as great as the wailing at Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddon...

What that is saying is Israel will be so traumatized at seeing the destruction Yehovah rained down upon the nations, they will wail and cry over them. Deffinetly something to think about.

 

[Jim Parker]

What that is saying is Israel will be so traumatized at seeing the utter annihilation Yehovah rained down upon the nations, they will wail and cry over them.

Interesting. That makes sense. (Assuming I actually can identify sense...)
The LXX renders it differently. 10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and compassion; and they shall look upon me because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend and they shall grieve intensely as for a first-born son.
jim

 

[Jim Parker]

It's a good thing you included IMHO since that is exactly what this comment is. While every vision in Revelation cannot be FULLY KNOWN what you have stated is pure insulting fantasy. God is not the author of confusion.

Again: Please cite the verse in your sola scriptura which says that God will restore the Kingdom of Israel.

 

[Sinthesis]

Gen 49:16 - Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:17 - Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Gen 49:18 - I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.​

This is why Dan is not listed in Rev 7. The curse is not passed through physical descent, but plagues those individuals among Israel's descendants who exhibit the beliefs and actions as above.

 

[OzSpen]

It's a good thing you included IMHO since that is exactly what this comment is. While every vision in Revelation cannot be FULLY KNOWN what you have stated is pure insulting fantasy. God is not the author of confusion.

God is not the author of confusion, but human beings ARE. If that were not the case, Paul would have had no reason for the instruction to the 1 Corinthians 14:40 (ESV) concerning the gifts of the Spirit, 'But all things should be done decently and in order'.

Oz

 

[Malachi]

Again: Please cite the verse in your sola scriptura which says that God will restore the Kingdom of Israel.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

Please note in connection with this passage:

1. Jesus did not tell His apostles that they were deluded.
2. Jesus did not tell His apostles they were mistaken.
3. Jesus did not discourage them from believing this.
4. Jesus did tell then that it was not for them to know the times and the seasons.
5. This implied that there would be a time and season for the restoration of Israel.
6. Jesus then went on to give them instructions regarding the preaching of the Gospel.
7. Until the Gospel has been preached in all the world, the time and season will not come.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14).

 

[Malachi]

This is why Dan is not listed in Rev 7. The curse is not passed through physical descent, but plagues those individuals among Israel's descendants who exhibit the beliefs and actions as above.

If the tribe of Dan is ALTOGETHER excluded from Ezekiel and Revelation, it means that physical descent is involved.

 

[smaller]

Gen 49:16 - Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:17 - Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Gen 49:18 - I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.​

This is why Dan is not listed in Rev 7. The curse is not passed through physical descent, but plagues those individuals among Israel's descendants who exhibit the beliefs and actions as above.

Dan = "a judge" (Strongs 1777)

Judgment passed for them.

The construct of the tribes in the order of their sealing in Rev. 7 and their name meanings reveal all there is to be seen in these matters. It's very specific.

 

[Jim Parker]

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

That verse does NOT say that Jesus will restore the Kingdom of Israel.
It reports the disciples ASKING about the restoration of the kingdom of Israel which was, at that time and place, the popular understanding of what the Messiah would do.
Jesus NEVER said He would restore the kingdom of Israel.

Please note in connection with this passage:
1. Jesus did not tell His apostles that they were deluded.

That is an argument from silence. What Jesus did NOT say is not proof of anything.

2. Jesus did not tell His apostles they were mistaken.

That is an argument from silence. What Jesus did NOT say is not proof of anything.

3. Jesus did not discourage them from believing this.

That is an argument from silence. What Jesus did NOT say is not proof of anything.

4. Jesus did tell then that it was not for them to know the times and the seasons.

5. This implied that there would be a time and season for the restoration of Israel.
It "implies" absolutely NOTHING. All that tells us is that they didn't have the clearance or the need to know when God will do what.Your guess as to what "it implies" is another form of the argument from silence.
As Paul said: (1Co 4:6 NKJV) "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other."
That is exactly what you are doing. You are going beyond what is written by inserting your imaginations into the scripture. God didn't put them there so neither should you.

6. Jesus then went on to give them instructions regarding the preaching of the Gospel.
7. Until the Gospel has been preached in all the world, the time and season will not come.

First He told them that what and when God does what God does was none of their business.
Then He told them what was their business:
Act 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Their business was:
(1) go to Jerusalem to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them
(2) then go and be His witnesses to the ends of the earth.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14).

That's right. Then the end of this age shall come when Jesus comes to Judge. (Mat 25:31ff also; 13:39-40,49; 24:3;, Mat 28:20)
But the "end of the age" says absolutely NOTHING about the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.
Jesus NEVER specifically stated that the kingdom of Israel would be restored.
But Jesus taught about the kingdom of God a lot.
(Mat 6:33; Mar 10:15, 23, 24, 25; 12:34; 14:25; 15:43; Luk 4:43; 6:20; 7:28; 8:1, 10; 9:2; 11, 27, 60, 62 10:9,11;,20; 11:20; 12:31; 13:18, 20, 28, 29; 13:29; 14:15; 16:16; 17:20, 21; 18:16, 17, 24, 25, 29; 19:11; 21:31; 22:16 and 10 more through 2Th 1:5)
But NEVER EVEN ONCE does Jesus or any other NT writer even use the words "Kingdom of Israel" let alone teach about it's "restoration."
When any NT writer speaks of "the kingdom," it is ALWAYS about the Kingdom of God.
The NT is full of teaching about the coming Kingdom of God and absolutely void of any teaching about "the restoration of the kingdom of Israel".
Since none of the NT writers tells us anything about the alleged restoration of the kingdom of Israel, why would anyone think that it's worth wondering about let alone making it a matter of dogma?
...unless its purpose is to amaze and astound the wuffos** with one's "deep knowledge"...


iakov the fool

** "Wuffo": noun;
I was on the sport parachute team in college. We used to jump at Moncks Corner in South Carolina. The locals would sometimes watch us and sometimes ask, in their "Low Country" Geechee-Gullah, dialect, "Hey man, wuffo you jump out de airplane?" Thus the coining of the noun, "Wuffo."
After a day of jumping, we would go to "The Dock" where they offered all-you-can-eat deep fried catfish and hushpuppies for $2. We would eat catfish and hushpuppies and drink beer until they asked to take it to the back room. Eventually, we would have to get back to school and, luckily, our cars knew the way back to campus.

 

[JohnDB]

Nobody yet has given us a reason why Ephraim is not included in the list in Revelation yet.

By extension maybe you could include it through Joseph....but where Joseph was a son he never became a tribe.
Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted by Jacob.
Joseph might have had more kids but we don't know that for certain.

So why use Joseph instead of Ephraim?

 

[for_his_glory]

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her for this is how John would recognize it to be since all other nations were not yet developed in his time. Revelations is about all of us, Jew and Gentile, past, present and future that keep Gods commandments. We are Gods witnesses that testify of His mercy and grace as we take His word out into the world to those who have ears to hear.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshipping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The TempleMount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original TempleMount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10. The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.
2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Rev 7:1-8 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan is not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.