Reformed Theology Makes God The Author of Sin!

[Free]

The problem, SolaScriptura, is that you are taking Reformed teaching to an extreme that probably most Reformed Christians don't believe. And that is because you are not beginning in the right place. You must start with a correct understanding of the Reformed view of God and work out from there, bringing everything else into submission to that understanding while maintaining a coherent and consistent view of God. But you're doing the opposite, which will almost certainly lead to wrong conclusions about such Reformed doctrine every time.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You don't believe that God didn't plan ,intend to make something that could destroy itself and others .

God isn't all knowing that he didn't want man to choose and didn't stop that.

That allowance for man to rebel wasnt accounted for .utilimatlely you really don't think this out.

The reformed teach that God let Adam fall to show those that believe that he is a God of justice ,and mercy .

God allowing and using evil isn't not is it taught by them that he wants it only that with freewill that evil be and God contains it to save those he will save .

You are arguing that God lets evil and essentially is the same argument that the reformed teach .

You obviously don't understand what I have written

 

[SolaScriptura]

The problem, SolaScriptura, is that you are taking Reformed teaching to an extreme that probably most Reformed Christians don't believe. And that is because you are not beginning in the right place. You must start with a correct understanding of the Reformed view of God and work out from there, bringing everything else into submission to that understanding while maintaining a coherent and consistent view of God. But you're doing the opposite, which will almost certainly lead to wrong conclusions about such Reformed doctrine every time.

What I have in the OP is in all the reformed confessions of their faith

Show what I have written that is not correct

 

[Free]

What I have in the OP is in all the reformed confessions of their faith

Show what I have written that is not correct

You didn't actually deal with the argument that Sproul made. Maybe you just heard the words "ordain" and "foreordain" and stopped watching there. Either way, it's like proof-texting from Scripture. You must take all relevant Reformed theology into account to come to a proper understanding, not a short, four-minute clip. Besides, there is disagreement even among Reformed theologians.

God certainly ordained some evil through the sinful choices of men, the most significant of which is the death of Jesus (Luke 22:42; John 6:38; 12:27; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28), but there are other incidents as well (Gen 50:20; Isa 10:5-19, for example). If he ordained those, then it stands to reason that he ordained other sinful human choices.

The question then is, does he directly ordain all sinful human choices or only some? If only some, could all the rest of humans' sinful choices be a secondary order ordaining? That is, by removing his grace from someone, he allows evil to happen to them, such as with Job.

One must always begin with a biblical idea of who God is--perfectly holy, good, just, loving, sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Then from there move out and try and understand what Scripture reveals of his actions in relation to who he his. From this, we must understand that whatever God does, even if he ordains all sin and evil, is in complete agreement with who he is, and it is therefore always holy, always just, always loving. He has reasons and purposes that we cannot fathom, but surely at the very least, he allows evil and sin to show just how infinitely merciful, gracious, and loving he is through his deliverance from evil and sin.

 

[RandyK]

This makes God the AUTHOR of Sin, and therefore cannot be Holy and Perfect and Righteous and Just, etc, etc.

This is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL!

I don't believe God predetermined Man to sin. We often think of God as "knowing everything." We often think of Him as "all-powerful." We therefore think that God had to have ordered Sin, or be viewed as inept and incapable of producing a sin-free environment in perpetuity.

But it is true that God is all-powerful and has infinite knowledge. That doesn't mean He cannot impose free agents who can, in a sense, "surprise Him." If God determined an agent outside of Himself to be free, then He determines to be dependent on an outcome outside of His own will.

God's infinite knowledge is different than ours. He knows every possibility of the choice we may make. We may not make a choice outside of the options He gives us. He therefore knows *every possible choice* we may make, even if He doesn't know which one we will choose?

Does that make God weak or purely finite? Well, as an infinite Being, He determines what He will do. I think He can produce a finite world where He doesn't know certain things that He has predetermined are our possible choices.

God planned for and hoped for Man's choice to continue to live in Him. But He also provided for the choice to follow an already-known trespasser and felon--Satan. Perhaps He even knew the likelihood of our capitulation to the duress of this powerful abuser?

Regardless, everything God said indicates He *did not want* Man to sin. And if so, then Man could have avoided sinning.

Nevertheless, God's plan could not fail, even with limited failures and backward steps in the beginning. Redemption was inevitable, whereas those who have hindered the plan will be rooted out in the end. God's infinite power is demonstrated in the fact that despite human and angelic setbacks, God is able and willing to redeem the original plan, and has.

 

[LeviR]

did God "ordain" the fall and sin?

When Adam sinned, God judged that all flesh and blood man is dead and will die. He sees them as dead and has condemned them to die.

So where do we go from there?

 

[SolaScriptura]

You didn't actually deal with the argument that Sproul made. Maybe you just heard the words "ordain" and "foreordain" and stopped watching there. Either way, it's like proof-texting from Scripture. You must take all relevant Reformed theology into account to come to a proper understanding, not a short, four-minute clip. Besides, there is disagreement even among Reformed theologians.

God certainly ordained some evil through the sinful choices of men, the most significant of which is the death of Jesus (Luke 22:42; John 6:38; 12:27; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28), but there are other incidents as well (Gen 50:20; Isa 10:5-19, for example). If he ordained those, then it stands to reason that he ordained other sinful human choices.

The question then is, does he directly ordain all sinful human choices or only some? If only some, could all the rest of humans' sinful choices be a secondary order ordaining? That is, by removing his grace from someone, he allows evil to happen to them, such as with Job.

One must always begin with a biblical idea of who God is--perfectly holy, good, just, loving, sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Then from there move out and try and understand what Scripture reveals of his actions in relation to who he his. From this, we must understand that whatever God does, even if he ordains all sin and evil, is in complete agreement with who he is, and it is therefore always holy, always just, always loving. He has reasons and purposes that we cannot fathom, but surely at the very least, he allows evil and sin to show just how infinitely merciful, gracious, and loving he is through his deliverance from evil and sin.

Here is The Westminster Confession of Faith on the Fall

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man)

Firstly, it clearly says, that, "It pleased God to allow them to sin". PLEASED God?

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

So, God gets PLEASURE and SATISFACTION and is CONTENTED and GRATIFIED, that Adam and Eve DISOBEYED Him and SINNED against Him?

Secondly, God, "planned to order their sin to his own glory”

On the word ORDER, the OED says:

"Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

God, according to the WCF, also REGULATED and DETERMINED, the Fall, and the DISOBEDIENCE and SIN of Adam and Eve!

This not only makes God the AUTHOR of SIN, but being PLEASED and SATISFIED that SIN entered the world through Adam and Eve!

This is THE HIGHEST BLASPHEMY!

 

[SolaScriptura]

I don't believe God predetermined Man to sin. We often think of God as "knowing everything." We often think of Him as "all-powerful." We therefore think that God had to have ordered Sin, or be viewed as inept and incapable of producing a sin-free environment in perpetuity.

But it is true that God is all-powerful and has infinite knowledge. That doesn't mean He cannot impose free agents who can, in a sense, "surprise Him." If God determined an agent outside of Himself to be free, then He determines to be dependent on an outcome outside of His own will.

God's infinite knowledge is different than ours. He knows every possibility of the choice we may make. We may not make a choice outside of the options He gives us. He therefore knows *every possible choice* we may make, even if He doesn't know which one we will choose?

Does that make God weak or purely finite? Well, as an infinite Being, He determines what He will do. I think He can produce a finite world where He doesn't know certain things that He has predetermined are our possible choices.

God planned for and hoped for Man's choice to continue to live in Him. But He also provided for the choice to follow an already-known trespasser and felon--Satan. Perhaps He even knew the likelihood of our capitulation to the duress of this powerful abuser?

Regardless, everything God said indicates He *did not want* Man to sin. And if so, then Man could have avoided sinning.

Nevertheless, God's plan could not fail, even with limited failures and backward steps in the beginning. Redemption was inevitable, whereas those who have hindered the plan will be rooted out in the end. God's infinite power is demonstrated in the fact that despite human and angelic setbacks, God is able and willing to redeem the original plan, and has.

all that we do know, is what the 66 Books of the Inspired, Infallible, Word of God, the Bible tells us.

We know that the God of the Bible, is 100% PERFECT, and JUST and HOLY, and GOOD, and is INCAPABLE of any WRONG or SIN. Nor can He, or does He, ever and any way, CAUSE sin, or ENCOURAGE sin, or LEAD anyone to sin. All of this is against His Most Holy Nature.

We also know that God Created all humans with a free will, which is the ability to choose right from wrong. He cannot and does not ever CAUSE us to sin against Him.

The Bible does not tell us, where sin originated from, or, why God gave us free will, with the option to do wrong and sin.

God, Who knows all things, in eternity past, FORESAW the Fall of the human race, and did Plan our Redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ', Life, Death and Resurrection

Further, the Bible does not tell us why God has allowed the devil to continue, who is determined to try and destroy everything that God does, and to lead away, if possible, the Children of God, those Born-Again by the Holy Spirit. God could have destroyed the devil after his rebellion, and thereby removed any sin from this world, as the devil is the father of all sins.

These are Mysteries that God in His Infinite Wisdom, has chosen not to tell us mere mortals. Much of this is not for our inquiry, and best left, as the Bible does not inform us on them.

 

[SolaScriptura]

When Adam sinned, God judged that all flesh and blood man is dead and will die. He sees them as dead and has condemned them to die.

So where do we go from there?

it is also the will and desire of God, that all humans were to repent of their sins, and believe in the Good News concerning Jesus Christ, and Salvation in Him.

No one is left to die in their sins and be forever lost. God in His Infinite Love, Kindness, Mercy and Goodness, has indeed provided a Wonderful Salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself Almighty God!

 

[LeviR]

Here is The Westminster Confession of Faith on the Fall

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man)

Firstly, it clearly says, that, "It pleased God to allow them to sin". PLEASED God?

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

So, God gets PLEASURE and SATISFACTION and is CONTENTED and GRATIFIED, that Adam and Eve DISOBEYED Him and SINNED against Him?

Secondly, God, "planned to order their sin to his own glory”

On the word ORDER, the OED says:

"Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

God, according to the WCF, also REGULATED and DETERMINED, the Fall, and the DISOBEDIENCE and SIN of Adam and Eve!

This not only makes God the AUTHOR of SIN, but being PLEASED and SATISFIED that SIN entered the world through Adam and Eve!

This is THE HIGHEST BLASPHEMY!

The Westminster Confession is a joke.

Look what it says first:

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.

Look what the Bible says:

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jas 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished,bringeth forth death.

See the difference?

They refer to Satan as a being outside themself. A fallen Angel they say.
Therefore, they say Adam and Eve were led astray by the cunning temptation of a fallen Angel.
But the Bible says temptation comes from man being drawn away and enticed by his own desires not from someone else.

They haven’t a clue.

Eve’s temptation was of her own desire for the fruit. That’s Bible.

 

[SolaScriptura]

The Westminster Confession is a joke.

Look what it says first:

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.

Look what the Bible says:

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jas 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished,bringeth forth death.

See the difference?

They refer to Satan as a being outside themself. A fallen Angel they say.
Therefore, they say Adam and Eve were led astray by the cunning temptation of a fallen Angel.
But the Bible says temptation comes from man being drawn away and enticed by his own desires not from someone else.

They haven’t a clue.

are you saying that the devil did not tempt and cause Eve and then Adam, to sin against God, by disobeying Him? of course he did! God could not have tempted them, and there is no one else around at the time

 

[LeviR]

are you saying that the devil did not tempt and cause Eve and then Adam, to sin against God, by disobeying Him? of course he did! God could not have tempted them, and there is no one else around at the time

They were tempted of their own desire. It was their own desire that tempted them, not the serpent.That’s Bible.

 

[SolaScriptura]

They were tempted of their own desire. It was their own desire that tempted them, not the serpent.That’s Bible.

Have you read Genesis chapter 3, where it is very clear that the devil actually did tempt Eve and Adam to disobey the Lord, and to sin against Him.

We read the same of the "Temptation" of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels, where it is also clear, that it was the devil.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11:3, "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ", which is very clear that it is the devil who deceived Eve and then Adam, and they obeyed him rather than God.

 

[RandyK]

all that we do know, is what the 66 Books of the Inspired, Infallible, Word of God, the Bible tells us.

We know that the God of the Bible, is 100% PERFECT, and JUST and HOLY, and GOOD, and is INCAPABLE of any WRONG or SIN. Nor can He, or does He, ever and any way, CAUSE sin, or ENCOURAGE sin, or LEAD anyone to sin. All of this is against His Most Holy Nature.

We also know that God Created all humans with a free will, which is the ability to choose right from wrong. He cannot and does not ever CAUSE us to sin against Him.

The Bible does not tell us, where sin originated from, or, why God gave us free will, with the option to do wrong and sin.

God, Who knows all things, in eternity past, FORESAW the Fall of the human race, and did Plan our Redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ', Life, Death and Resurrection

Further, the Bible does not tell us why God has allowed the devil to continue, who is determined to try and destroy everything that God does, and to lead away, if possible, the Children of God, those Born-Again by the Holy Spirit. God could have destroyed the devil after his rebellion, and thereby removed any sin from this world, as the devil is the father of all sins.

These are Mysteries that God in His Infinite Wisdom, has chosen not to tell us mere mortals. Much of this is not for our inquiry, and best left, as the Bible does not inform us on them.

In general I agree with your statement that God does not sin and does not encourage sin. But I reserve a little right to speculate about why certain things are as they are. After all, we were created in God's image, and can understand what God does from a rational point of view.

I don't know that God anticipated our Fall, so I can't say He foresaw our Fall. But He certainly wasn't surprised by it because He knew all of the possible options in advance. And so, He had the remedy in place in case we failed.

I know what Sin is--it's no mystery to me. It is rebellion against God's Word when free agents decide they do not want to be ruled by God.

I have a good guess as to why God let Satan continue at length. He is in no hurry to judge those who rebel against Him. He allows a process to extend as far as He wishes to undo the effects of that rebellion.

To judge it He first allows the crimes to take place. Then the damage has to be undone in a proper way.

I think a lot of this is self-evident, so I'm not really afraid to guess. I've seen God's justice at work in the history of the Bible and in history over all, including in my own life.

God methodically accomplishes all that His Word has determined must take place. The areas in which we operate our free will can cause damage and brings about consequences. But nothing we choose to do can stop God's ultimate plan, as determined by His all-powerful Word.

 

[LeviR]

Have you read Genesis chapter 3, where it is very clear that the devil actually did tempt Eve and Adam to disobey the Lord, and to sin against Him.

We read the same of the "Temptation" of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels, where it is also clear, that it was the devil.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11:3, "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ", which is very clear that it is the devil who deceived Eve and then Adam, and they obeyed him rather than God.

Well, if I’m to agree with you I must first completely reject what James has said regarding how everyone is tempted. James says everyone is tempted by his own desires, and that those desires lead to sin and then death.
Should I remove the book of James from my Bible?

I’m wondering if what you are saying is correct, that the devil tempted Eve, or what James says is correct, that Eve was tempted by her own desire.

 

[JLB]

There is no "Lucifer" in the Hebrew.

The word is the noun "hêylêl", which literally means, "to shine", or, "shining one"

That’s like saying there is no “God” in Hebrew it is El.

Lucifer is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word.

Here is how the Strong’s defines hêlēl

 

[JLB]

Well, if I’m to agree with you I must first completely reject what James has said regarding how everyone is tempted. James says everyone is tempted by his own desires, and that those desires lead to sin and then death.
Should I remove the book of James from my Bible?

I’m wondering if what you are saying is correct, that the devil tempted Eve, or what James says is correct, that Eve was tempted by her own desire.

Both.

Here is what James actually says.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. James 1:14




JLB

 

[LeviR]

Both.

Here is what James actually says.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. James 1:14




JLB

Enticed is still relating to the desires of the flesh.

2Pe 2:18 - For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh..

James is saying that everyone is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own desires.

 

[JLB]

Enticed is still relating to the desires of the flesh.

2Pe 2:18 - For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh..

James is saying that everyone is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own desires.

Here is a biblical description of being enticed by an evil spirit looks like.

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:1-6

again


Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,
In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”
Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
Matthew 4:1-10

Here is what the word “enticed” from James 1:14 means -

 

[LeviR]

Here is a biblical description of being enticed by an evil spirit looks like.

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:1-6

again


Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,
In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”
Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
Matthew 4:1-10

Here is what the word “enticed” from James 1:14 means -


View attachment 16938

So, the serpent did not tempt Eve. The serpent baited her with what she was already being tempted by, her desire.
When I go fishing, I put bait on the hook to lure the fish. But if the fish aren’t attracted to the bait they won’t go for it.
Two things makes it possible for me to catch the fish. First, they need to be hungry. And second, they need to be attracted to the bait.
It was Eve’s own desire that tempted her to take the bait.