Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

Yes Judas heard His voice and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, then he betrayed Jesus.

How would one know that Judas "heard His voice"? And what does that mean anyway? What Scripture indicates that he placed his faith in Christ for salvation?

Those who believe for a while, then betray Jesus, are not promised eternal life.
JLB

What verse or verses say this? I'm not one to trust in mere opinions or speculations. I need Scripture that actually states what you've stated here.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"I'm not even trying to convince anyone of that. I'm only showing what Jesus promised to those who have believed, and HAVE eternal life."

Ok, so you agree that those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers that are not promised eternal life.

Great, it's about time.
JLB

I can't even imagine how anyone would come to the conclusions you've come to from what I have posted.

I certainly agree with Jesus and His promises. I certainly do not agree with your views that I can't find anywhere taught in Scripture.

 

[JLB]

I certainly agree with Jesus and His promises. I certainly do not agree with your views that I can't find anywhere taught in Scripture.

Here let me help you to find it in the scriptures.


Here in this scripture, Jesus promised that the unbelieving would have their part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?


JLB

 

[JLB]

What verse or verses say this? I'm not one to trust in mere opinions or speculations. I need Scripture that actually states what you've stated here.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

How would one know that Judas "heard His voice"?

Because he followed Jesus for 3 1/2 years.

13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew;15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:13-16

Judas followed Jesus for a while, then became a traitor.


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

YEah.
Go ahead and give it a try.

Jim, if you do not believe that God in Jesus Christ can save those in whom He has saved and set apart, Then you do not know if you are saved or rather will be saved and you could be judged to the bottomless pit and eternal fire. Is that what you believe? If not, what do you believe?

 

[Douglas Summers]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?

JLB, Those Scriptures are not for the saved, they are for those who heard the truth and received it with joy. That is all the received, The Truth. But not one of them acted upon the calling. None of them were regenerated. (received the Spirit). They are tares.
There are plenty of Scriptures that are clear that the saved man of God is eternal in the power of God. Why use Scripture that you interpret that run counter to those that are clear and positive of our deliverance by God?

 

[JLB]

JLB, Those Scriptures are not for the saved, they are for those who heard the truth and received it with joy. That is all the received, The Truth. But not one of them acted upon the calling. None of them were regenerated. (received the Spirit). They are tares.
There are plenty of Scriptures that are clear that the saved man of God is eternal in the power of God. Why use Scripture that you interpret that run counter to those that are clear and positive of our deliverance by God?

Well I must say your view differs grateful from those in the OSAS camp.

They say these who believed for a while, are still saved, as they did in fact believe, and when they believed the received eternal life, which is eternal and can never be removed from these that believed for a while.

You on the other hand say these are "tares".

You have mixed up this parable with another parable, about the wheat and the tares.

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. Matthew 13:38

The parable we are discussing is the parable of the Sower.

Jesus Christ doesn't sow any "tare" seeds, as He is the Son of God. Tare seeds are sown by the wicked one.

"Tare" seeds are a false Gospel.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

If verse 12, Jesus says the prerequisite for being saved is to believe.

Those who sprang up among the rock, did believe... for a while.


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I certainly agree with Jesus and His promises. I certainly do not agree with your views that I can't find anywhere taught in Scripture."

Here let me help you to find it in the scriptures.

Well, that would be helpful. Let's see.

Here in this scripture, Jesus promised that the unbelieving would have their part in the lake of fire.

I already know that the unbeliever will end up in the lake of fire. For NOT having eternal life, according to Rev 20:15. But that's not the problem.

Your view is that a believer who ceases to believe, such as the second soil in Jesus' parable, becomes an unbeliever, and reverts back to an unsaved state. It is THAT view that I cannot find in Scripture. Where would I find the teaching that a saved person becomes an unsaved person FOR ANY REASON?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?
JLB

Nothing here about reverting back to an unsaved state.

In post #212 I challenged your views with this:

However, ONCE a person believes, they BECOME totally different.

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

Until you've provided clear evidence that all 8 of these changes have been, or can be reversed, and taught in Scripture, your views are only opinions, suggestions, assumptions, or speculations. But no substance.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well I must say your view differs grateful from those in the OSAS camp.

They say these who believed for a while, are still saved, as they did in fact believe, and when they believed the received eternal life, which is eternal and can never be removed from these that believed for a while.

Because Jesus SAID the second soil believed (Luke 8:13). And that those who believe HAVE eternal life (John 5:24), and those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (John 10:28). For this reason, I believe that Jesus taught eternal security.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.
JLB

This assumption has never been shown to be taught from Scripture.

 

[JLB]

I already know that the unbeliever will end up in the lake of fire. For NOT having eternal life, according to Rev 20:15. But that's not the problem.

The unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire, as they are those who do not overcome.

That is the context. Those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars are not overcomers.

In the Book of Life = Eternal Life
Blotted out of the Book of Life = Eternal Death


Do you believe it is impossible to be blotted out of the Book of Life?


Now the question remains:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Because Jesus SAID the second soil believed (Luke 8:13). And that those who believe HAVE eternal life (John 5:24), and those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (John 10:28). For this reason, I believe that Jesus taught eternal security.

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire, as they are those who do not overcome.

Where do you find that? Rev 21:8 says nothing about "not overcoming". And I agree that the unbelieving will end up in the lake of fire. Why? Because they never received the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Those who have received the free gift of eternal life will never perish (Jn 10:28). Regardless of the present or future. Rom 8:38.

That is the context. Those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life.

Scholars describe this phrase as 'litotes'. It's not literal. In fact, there is no Scripture that says that anyone will be blotted out.

In the Book of Life = Eternal Life

Quite true.

Blotted out of the Book of Life = Eternal Death

What Scripture tells that one will be blotted out of the Book of Life FOR ANY REASON?

Certainly, if that were possible, the Bible would have directly addressed such a horrendous thing. And tell us WHY one could be blotted out.

Do you believe it is impossible to be blotted out of the Book of Life?

Yes, for the very reason I've repeatedly mentioned. There are no verses that teach that anyone could, or has been, blotted out.

The real question is why anyone would believe what the Bible does not teach!!

Now the question remains:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?JLB

Why persist in this? I've already answered and the answer does not help your views in any way.

This is what needs to be done to prove your view:

In post #212 and now #228 I challenged your views with this:

However, ONCE a person believes, they BECOME totally different.

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

Now, when anyone can show how each of these 8 things can be cancelled for any reason from Scripture, I'll believe your theory.

But not until then. And I'm not worried one bit that there are any verses that "undo" any of these 8 things.

So, when one becomes a believer, all 8 of these occur.

So, where does Scripture teach that any of these 8 things can be "undone"?

That's the real question for your views.

It cannot be shown from Scripture that any of these 8 things can be undone.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, believing or unbelieving people?
JLB

They are unbelieving. So what? What does this prove? Nothing.

Please just prove your point by dealing with my challenge to you:

In post #212, and 228 and now 232, I challenged your views with this:

However, ONCE a person believes, they BECOME totally different.

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

 

[smaller]

The Scripture tells us that Pharoah hardened his own heart for the first 5 plagues.

Scripture tells this resistance, TWO fold.

A. Pharaoh hardened his heart

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

and

B. God hardened pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 7:
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Both statements are true. IF we observe the "facts" and who is involved, for example in Mark 4:15, we should perceive that there was no such singular entity in the flesh man pharaoh to start with. Satan DID enter the heart of pharaoh to RESIST God, just as scripture shows us, happens.

It was only after that does Scripture say that God hardened his heart. And I gave clear Scripture from Ex 9 to back up my statement.

Mark 4:15 (and all the other seed parables), Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many many other scriptures show, openly, that a resisting will of adverse entities DOES function in and within man's heart that is not them. On the above basis it is not credible to view "only man" in the equations of scripture.

If you disagree, that's fine. But can you refute what I posted?

I disagree with any sight that just see's man in the equations of scripture because it is easily seen as otherwise.

Freewill is merely blind to the obvious. An assertion that can't hold scriptural water.

Believers CAN and ARE taken away, captive, by a will that is both adverse and NOT their own. I might even observe that postures of "freewill" are a step in that direction, impervious to even be able to see the other will:

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We do have an adverse spirit component in the scriptures and in "reality." That will is NOT without power, even resisting power determined to it and given to it, by God Himself.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

That enmity, that God Himself PUT, does exist. Whether any man's will sees it or not.

 

[FreeGrace]

I disagree with any sight that just see's man in the equations of scripture because it is easily seen as otherwise.

Regarding one's eternal destiny, angels have no choice in the matter. It is between man and God only. Yes, the devil can and does deceive and blind, but there must be a willingness on the part of the deceived and blinded.

God's provision for salvation is between God and man. And you haven't shown otherwise.

All your talk about "other influences" have not shown that man's eternal destiny is determined by anyone other than man himself. Either by conscious choice (active refusal), or by ignoring what should lead one to be thankful to God and to recognize Him as Creator (Rom 1:19,21) (passive refusal).

Freewill is merely blind to the obvious.

Free will has no eyes with which to see. Free will isn't an "entity". It's opportunity. One must ACT in order to take advantage of opportunity. The person has eyes with which to see or not. Your choice of words demonstrates your failure to understand what free will is.

An assertion that can't hold scriptural water.

Because your assertion was false to begin with.

Believers CAN and ARE taken away, captive, by a will that is both adverse and NOT their own. I might even observe that posture of "freewill" are a step in that direction, impervious to even be able to see the other will:

This has absolutely nothing to do with eternal security.

We do have an adverse spirit component in the scriptures and in "reality."

Who on this thread has denied any of this??

 

[smaller]

Regarding one's eternal destiny, angels have no choice in the matter.

The term angel means "messenger." It is applied to several distinct/different entities. There are Holy messengers who will not and can not be made otherwise. And there are evil/wicked messengers, who likewise can not be made otherwise. Because both of these types of messengers were created to be what they are. The Holy is not evil. The evil is not Holy. They do not mix nor are they interchangeable and they do not move back and forth, becoming one, then the other and back again, by their supposed "wills."

It is between man and God only. Yes, the devil can and does deceive and blind,

Yes, and does so "internally." So where "freewill" salvation desires the "whole package" to be saved, that posture doesn't exist. The flesh has sin dwelling in it, evil present with it, making the flesh CONTARY to the Spirit exactly as Paul states in Romans 7:17-21 and Gal. 5:17, for example.

We are to remain in ADVERSE judgments of these workings in our own flesh. And because these are not forensic matters, they MUST BE adverse spiritual matters.

Divide there and we'll see just fine.

 

[FreeGrace]

Regarding Rom 11:19 and the meaning of "not to be repented of", which is translated correctly "irrevocable".

According to my copy of The Analytical Greek Lexicon: consisting of an alphabetical arrangement of every occurring inflexion of every word contained int eh Greek New Testament Scriptures, with a grammatical analysis of each word, and lexicographical illustration of the meanings. A complete series of paradigms, with grammatical remarks and explanations, (yes, that is the full title of the book) the meaning for the Greek word is:

"not to be repented of; by implication, irrevocable, enduring", and Rom 11:29 AND 2 Cor 7:10 are given as examples of where the word is used in Scripture.

So, by implication, the literal translation actually MEANS irrevocable. So such translations are correct.

2 Cor 7:10 has another way of translating the word:
"For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death."

The words in red translate the same Greek word in Rom 11:29.

So, one can say from Rom 11:29 that the gifts and calling of God are without regret. Which still means irrevocable.

Because, if God would ever take away, revoke, remove one's eternal life, it would clearly show that He regretted having given it in the first place.

So, all the effort to try to make Rom 11:29 NOT say irrevocable is in vain.

 

[FreeGrace]

We are to remain in ADVERSE judgments of these workings in our own flesh.

I have no idea what this means, or refers to. Could you please, please, please make yourself a whole lot more clear?

 

[chessman]

If a person believes for a while, then becomes an atheist, is this person still a believer?
JLB

Depends on what, exactly, a person believed in. For example. If a person believes for a while that Jesus has not risen, then becomes an atheist, this person is still not saved. Never was saved. A person must believe in the true and complete Gospel to become saved.

Another example is a person that believes for a while that being a 'christian' means to never experience trials and testing. Then that person experiences trials and testings and becomes an atheist. This person is still not saved. Never was. A person must believe in the True and complete Gospel to become saved. Nothing else saves a person under the New Covenant.

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what this means, or refers to. Could you please, please, please make yourself a whole lot more clear?

The Spirit is quite factually opposed to sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us. Romans 7:17-21. This contention and contrariness changes for no man's will.

IT remains so with all believers.

God in Christ is not the ally of indwelling sin and evil present with us, but the Divine OPPOSER of same:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And no man, by their supposed "freewill" can make it otherwise.