Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

You been refuted every time you try to water down and redefine what the bible says.

One more claim that hasn't been shown. All that has been done is only disagreement and an alternate opinion given. No refutation.

yet now He has reconciled... if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith,grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

I already explained this passage. No need to keep repeating myself. And this re-quoting the passage doesn't refute anything I posted about it.

Those who disagree and want to refute what I posted need to address my posting point by point to show how my view isn't correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

As opposed to what? Striking him dead on the spot rather than drowning him and his in the Red Sea a short time later?

The Scripture tells us that Pharoah hardened his own heart for the first 5 plagues. It was only after that does Scripture say that God hardened his heart. And I gave clear Scripture from Ex 9 to back up my statement.

If you disagree, that's fine. But can you refute what I posted?

And YES, God can and does harden that spirit to resist His Words and His Ways.

Sounding more and more like a 5 point Calvinist all the time.

However, the Bible says this:
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

Apparently your view is that God is at cross purposes with Himself.

So I disagree with you because the Bible disagree with you.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is someone who believes for a while, then longer believes, a believer?

I agree.

No. They are not a believer.

JLB

All this is totally irrelevant. Can you find ANY where in Scripture where one who believed for a while is described as an "unbeliever"? No, you can't. Because the Bible NEVER describes one who HAS EVER believed as an unbeliever. The word "unbeliever" is only used for those who have NEVER believer.

But it seems you're quite unwilling to face that fact. Jesus Himself acknowledged some who believe only for a while and then fall away. Yet He made no comment about any change in their salvation state. It takes a whole lot of speculation and assumption to leap from the notion that temporary faith is only temporary salvation.

That is not found anywhere in Scripture. [edited, stafff]

 

[smaller]

The Scripture tells us that Pharoah hardened his own heart for the first 5 plagues. It was only after that does Scripture say that God hardened his heart. And I gave clear Scripture from Ex 9 to back up my statement.

Not as clear as scriptures show. I've tried to be patient with you 'cause I think you are a nice fellow with good intentions for other believers. But let's try to find some mutual understandings.

HERE is what Jesus says the "construct" of Pharaoh was:

Mark 4:15
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It's the identical conveyance of scriptural fact also found in other scriptures "such as" Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Cor. 12:7, Eph. 2:2 and so on and so on. So many places that it's impossible to deny. That is, IF we believe God in Christ and His Apostles are "telling us the truth."

Employing some basic math here, that really any child could do, like count to 2, we should be able to see that there is the flesh guy/king/man, right?

Now let's baby step to numero dos. Who else is in the PICTURE that God in Christ gave us to see? Why, yes, it is our adversary, Satan, the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience, the spirit of slumber/stupor, the EVIL PRESENT, the sin dwelling in the HARD HEART with the flesh guy/king/man.

If you could only get one principle to understand JUDGMENT out of the entire Bible, Jesus' Words above would be that principle.

But you see my friend, the PRINCIPLE happens to be exceptionally REAL, therefore what happens? Uh, yeah, people can't see it.

In fact, even putting Gods Words in this regard up, holding UP Gods Words, MAKES and FORCES Satan in man's heart to resist, to harden, to destroy, to kill.

It's a real principle. And unfortunately for believers, a principle they are purposefully blinded to, because of the likewise factional friction between God and His enemy, Satan. (not that God couldn't wipe this putrid puke out of existence by a simple look.)

But maybe, just maybe, God will allow one or 2 people who believe Him and His Words, to actually see now and then.

Not my call. I submit to Gods Superiority in these matters. How could I not, when the principle is so entirely obvious, yet believers will deny it to their dying breath?

Kind of startling if you ask me.

 

[smaller]

So, the scriptural math regarding "regaining" salvation is this:

We are to remind "the fallen" in whatever fault, whatever open sin, that we DO have a very harsh adversary in play in our current flesh life. We can be taken captive in the flesh AGAIN, by that adversary, particularly when we DON'T PERCEIVE this enemy as 'real.' And instead, we only see ourselves.

We fail to apply judgment unto WHOM judgment IS due. That JUDGMENT must reside in any believer against our own flesh, because that is where the enemy of our soul fights against us all. When we don't see this, we end up being the flesh pawn of our enemy again, and we turn to railing accusations against each others, because we FAILED to see what is really going on.

Paul lays out some dictates about the 'restoration' and 'recovery' process for the fallen faithful who are again in blindness. First of all, we who seek to restore, must remain with GOOD REPORT for all such, because in theory, we are supposed to see what happened to them. Otherwise we too are merely showing our own spiritually imposed blindness from our enemy.

1 Timothy 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Do we think the devil really cares if we try to "recover" any fallen from his hold by the threat of "burning them alive forever?" The devil will laugh in the face of such threats. The devil already knows that is his fate. We're not telling the devil anything he doesn't already know. IF you haven't seen the snare, the snarl, the mockery of the devil on the face of his victims, you ain't living the Christian, captial C, LIFE. This is a very real principle and a very real activity in the world of flesh men, and yes, even in "the churchy folk."

So, bear His Sword with dignity, with honor, with purpose.

Seek to DIVIDE your fallen brethren from the hold of the adversary. Love one, HATE the other. God might actually honor such witnesses, and grant that person repentance.

Secondly, we ourselves must use caution in all these matters, because we actually deal with the same issues ourselves, in our own flesh.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We don't divide, we don't recover, if we can't see what's really going on.

There is no "just the fallen believer." There is that person, and there is the adversary, capturing them, blinding them, manipulating them, holding them.

Get your Spiritual hat screwed on straight, and you'll see clearly how to pluck that sliver out of the eye of another. That is, if we can see the MACK TRUCK that smashes our own spiritual eyes to hamburger.

Nothing Jesus hated more than a lying hypocrite. For these "religious people" He reserved His Harshest Words, calling them "children of the devil." John 8:44. HOW is it exactly that all these "religious hierarchy" in Israel had so many problems? See Mark 4:15. People like them, LIKE US, who engage the Word, who LOVE the Word, will experience the "resistance" of our enemy, usually in very short order. Those "men" were children of the devil because the DEVIL over ran their flesh, turning them into prideful, arrogant NON sinners-and in this they LIE they were turned as many religious people are turned, into HYPOCRITES. This is the worst fate that any "believer" can land in, and it's a CURSE from God to the DEVIL in the flesh, showing others to 'AVOID' that person and what they carry. To be a lying hypocrite, POSING as a believer. IF you haven't seen the devil's eyes flashing on TV in some preachers eyes, you just ain't lookin.

I for one am not interested in having that said to me, being a child of the devil. But to understand it means I must have HIS TRUTH in my own flesh, to see my way in the darkness of this present world, and DIVIDE from that working that I know for no uncertain fact that I have in my own flesh, just as Paul saw for himself in Romans 7, in 2 Cor. 12, in Galatians 3-4-5, in 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and other scriptural citings.

We are called to "divide."

Yeah, we do have a quest. The persons we divide from this adversary, and they MIGHT recover from, will be spending ETERNITY with us. Be nice. It's a long time.

 

[JLB]

All this is totally irrelevant. Can you find ANY where in Scripture where one who believed for a while is described as an "unbeliever"? No, you can't. Because the Bible NEVER describes one who HAS EVER believed as an unbeliever. The word "unbeliever" is only used for those who have NEVER believer.

But it seems you're quite unwilling to face that fact. Jesus Himself acknowledged some who believe only for a while and then fall away. Yet He made no comment about any change in their salvation state. It takes a whole lot of speculation and assumption to leap from the notion that temporary faith is only temporary salvation.

That is not found anywhere in Scripture. So there's no reason to believe such a made up thing.

Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believing one, since they have returned to unbelieving?

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

What you are suggesting, is their is no such thing as testing.

Whether or not a person will continue to be faithful, when tested, so that at the end of our faith, we will receive the salvation of our soul.

Whether we are assaulted with persecution, or whether we are tempted with wealth, will we be faithful steadfast unto the end.

You seem to be making up the rules for salvation as you go, in which you must ignore, downplay, and redefine what the bible says, to force fit the scriptures to line up with your man made doctrine, then attempt to discredit those who embrace the truth of the scriptures.

It won't go well for you on the Day of judgement as you stand before the King with this attitude.

Now is the time to change, and allow the truth of His word to renew your mind.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

Those who believe, and continue in the faith, steadfast to the end, are the ones who receive the salvation of their souls, and are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection of the dead, in which will be equal to the angels, as sons of God, nor will we die anymore.


35 But those who are counted worthy to attain [reach, obtain] that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


JLB

 

[WIP]

This thread is about a nanosecond away from being locked down. I've deleted and edited too many posts for tolling, personal stabs, and outright rudeness. If y'all can't discuss this topic as adults with respect then maybe it shouldn't be discussed at all. Your choice.

 

[JLB]

Hell, of course. But your question has no relevance to my response to your previous comments.

It has great relevance.

Here just answer this simple question, and we will see if there is any relevance.

If a person believes for a while, then becomes an atheist, is this person still a believer?



JLB

 

[JLB]

But Jesus made these promises:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24

That promise is to believers.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers.

What defines a person as a believer, is they believe.

What you are trying to convince us is, those who no longer believe, are afforded the same promises as believers.

Believers are promised eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." John 10:28

A simple read on the context shows yet again that this promise is to believers.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28


Here is the prerequisite that Jesus gave for those of His disciples, to have eternal life.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life,

• hear My voice
• and I know them
• they follow Me

• I give them eternal life.

Judas Iscariot heard His voice, and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, until he didn't.

Judas didn't continue steadfast unto the end.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It has great relevance.

Here just answer this simple question, and we will see if there is any relevance.

If a person believes for a while, then becomes an atheist, is this person still a believer?
JLB

Nope. There is only relevance if the Bible actually addresses former believers as unbelievers. Which it doesn't. The Bible has a specific word for former believers; apostates.

And since God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is a gift of God, those who have believed, REGARDLESS of what happens after that, are still saved. Because they still have eternal life.

Only if the Bible plainly speaks of eternal life being revoked, or taken away, would I believe that a saved person can lose salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

That promise is to believers.

And the point is missed again. When one believes, according to Jesus, they HAVE eternal life. I know your view, that eternal life is withheld until one dies and then enters eternity. But Jesus tells us that those who believe HAVE (in the present tense) eternal life. That's the piece that's missing from your theology.

And since HAVING eternal life occurs WHEN one believes, the promises that Jesus makes to believers still holds, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT.

Even when Jesus spoke of the second soil believing only for a while, He never even hinted that they lost salvation.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers.

So what? They still have eternal life, and still WILL NOT PERISH, and still WILL NOT come into condemnation, and still HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to spiritual life. Jesus promises this.

What defines a person as a believer, is they believe.

However, ONCE a person believes, they BECOME totally different.

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

What you are trying to convince us is, those who no longer believe, are afforded the same promises as believers.

That's what Jesus promised. If there are any verses where Jesus stipulated any conditions for keeping eternal life, please share.

Believers are promised eternal life.

Yep. Regardless of may occur later.

And Paul even addressed such a possibility.
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

By noting the present (things present) and the future (nor things to come), Paul covered any and every possibility of what might otherwise separate a saved person from the love of Christ.

And his point: there is NOTHING that will separate a saved person from the love of Christ.

 

[JLB]

And the point is missed again.

Yes I see you still trying to convince us that those who no longer believe, are still given the same promises as faithful believers.2

 

[FreeGrace]

A simple read on the context shows yet again that this promise is to believers.

Who else would He promise this to?

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Ah, still trying to get works in the picture, I see. But, we know who His sheep are from 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

It should be clear to all that "entering through Me" is a figure of speech for believing in Christ for salvation. So, those who have believed in Him are His sheep. And He was very clear; those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH.

Please note that He NEVER said that He gives eternal life only to those who continue to believe, or that He takes away eternal life from those who cease to believe. Which is your view. Totally unsubstantiated.

Here is the prerequisite that Jesus gave for those of His disciples, to have eternal life.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life,

• hear My voice
• and I know them
• they follow Me

• I give them eternal life.

Nope. The prerequisite for having eternal life is by "entering through Me", back in v.9 where those who did that were SAVED, according to Jesus.

And if one is SAVED, it should be clear that they HAVE eternal life.

Judas Iscariot heard His voice, and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, until he didn't.

Judas didn't continue steadfast unto the end.JLB

Actually, the Bible is clear on the fact that Judas was NEVER saved.

10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

Recall that Peter didn't want Jesus to wash his feet. After Jesus explained WHY Peter needed his feet washed, he got all excited and told Jesus to wash his head and hands (give him a whole bath).

Jesus' answer indicated that all the disciples were already clean (saved) except the one who was betraying Him.

 

[JLB]

So what? They still have eternal life, and still WILL NOT PERISH, and still WILL NOT come into condemnation, and still HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to spiritual life. Jesus promises this.

If you have a scripture that teaches us the unbelieving have eternal life then please post it now.

Meanwhile, while your looking for that scripture, I will post the scripture I have, that shows what the unbelieving are promised by Jesus Christ.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Jesus plainly promised the unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes I see you still trying to convince us that those who no longer believe, are still given the same promises as faithful believers.2

I'm not even trying to convince anyone of that. I'm only showing what Jesus promised to those who have believed, and HAVE eternal life.

But the real question is why you are still trying to convince anyone that one can lose salvation when there are no verses that say so?

 

[JLB]

Nope. The prerequisite for having eternal life is by "entering through Me", back in v.9 where those who did that were SAVED, according to Jesus.

Well you might want to read what Jesus said.

Here it is: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life,

 

[JLB]

10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

Yes Judas heard His voice and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, then he betrayed Jesus.

Good point and good example for us all.


Those who believe for a while, then betray Jesus, are not promised eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not even trying to convince anyone of that. I'm only showing what Jesus promised to those who have believed, and HAVE eternal life.

Ok, so you agree that those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers that are not promised eternal life.

Great, it's about time.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

If you have a scripture that teaches us the unbelieving have eternal life then please post it now.

That's quite a silly request, since no unbeliever has eternal life. One must believe in order to have eternal life.

And once eternal life is given, it is irrevocable, as shown by all the familiar Scriptures already given repeatedly.

Meanwhile, while your looking for that scripture, I will post the scripture I have, that shows what the unbelieving are promised by Jesus Christ.

It's not relevant, for the simple fact that the Bible NEVER describes one who ceases to believe as an unbeliever. That's your error. The Bible describes them as apostates.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

I asked before, but don't recall an answer. So I'll ask again. I thought your view was that ceasing to believe was the way to lose salvation. But now it seems you've added this list of sins to what will lose a person salvation. Is this a change to your soteriology?

And, one more question: if this list of sins gets one unsaved, were these specific sins not paid for by Christ??

Jesus plainly promised the unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.

Sure. Those who never believed NEVER received the gift of eternal life, which is an irrevocable gift of God.