Regaining Salvation...

[smaller]

For all of these quite superficial debates, there is a general refusal for all the parties involved to deal with the obvious problems.

Indwelling sin and evil present with us ALL, Romans 7:17-21, is not 'forensic.' We can't cut open the flesh or the mind and 'see these things." Therefore simple observation tells us these are adverse spiritual matters or more precisely, a "spirit of disobedience" that exists, not forensic. This should be simple to see. Evil is not forensic, it is as Paul said, "present." We might even term it "a presence" that is not forensic, material in nature. Evil is "present."

Evil present is not and can not be allied with God in Christ. Nevertheless it IS present with us. This pits the Divine Holy Spirit of God in Christ in us, against that working which IS in our flesh as an adverse spiritual working.

From the "lose your salvation" crowd, they quite false think that they can make the sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us disappear. It doesn't and can't. Not by works. Not by declaration. Whatever we do we do with those workings PRESENT in our own flesh.

And likewise, with the OSAS camp. Whatever 'good thing' that is cited for believers, which are all of course TRUE, does not and can not apply to the adverse spiritual component of these equations.

So, both parties go round and round, never able to look upon what else is in our own flesh. And both parties quite vainly attempt to "justify" the "entirety" of what believers presently are.

The Spirit will remain contrary to the flesh, and against the flesh, in ANY person, precisely because of indwelling sin and evil present with ALL of us, just as Paul stated in Gal. 5:17.

There is no eradication of this contrariness between the Spirit and the flesh, with indwelling sin and evil present in any of the debaters in these matters.

Both parties should recognize that there is an adverse spiritual component in the equations and quit trying to justify what can't be justified.

In Truth, we all meet on the same ground, and where we meet has remaining issues. We are and remain sinners, saved solely by Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ. NO man with these adverse spiritual components involved can be saved on their own. AND no, no EVIL PRESENT is justified, forgiven or eradicated by The Spirit. Evil is and remains condemned, PERIOD. It is not "overlooked" by the Spirit. It is not 'AUTHORIZED' under the flag of forgiveness nor excuses.

We are to have "division" between ourselves and our own adverse spiritual components that DO WORK in our flesh and that's all there is to it. It's not saved. It's not compliant. It's not obedient to the Spirit. It won't be saved. It can't "work" to prove itself otherwise. It won't change or be eradicated. Evil IS present with us all, and IT has a field day with these debates, blinding ALL parties to IT'S reality of presence.

It can be RULED and dominated over. But to say it is not there is blindness.

If every believer was even able to sit down together in honesty, all this stuff would go away. BUT EVIL present will NOT allow it.

And that's exactly WHY we have our problems. It takes quite of bit of honesty applied to a believer even to be able to choke out the statement of truth, that evil is present with us. And to understand that it is an adverse spiritual matter, and not forensic, INFLAMES that working to no end.

So, yeah. Good luck with all of that.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Spirit is quite factually opposed to sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us.

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. Not sin. Might want to tweak your thoughts.

Romans 7:17-21. This contention and contrariness changes for no man's will.

What does this mean?

IT remains so with all believers.

Please define what "IT" means.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The verse teaches that our human nature and the Holy Spirit are contrary to each other.

And no man, by their supposed "freewill" can make it otherwise.

Who thinks so, anyway? I'm not aware of anyone who argues against Gal 5:17.

I think you're tilting against windmills.

 

[FreeGrace]

For all of these quite superficial debates, there is a general refusal for all the parties involved to deal with the obvious problems.

What "parties" and what "obvious problems"? Your posts are too vague to follow.

Indwelling sin and evil present with us ALL, Romans 7:17-21, is not 'forensic.' We can't cut open the flesh or the mind and 'see these things."

Again, it is the Holy Spirit who indwells us. And in Rom 6, Paul lays out the choice (free will) that the believer has in to whom to "present ourselves as slaves to obey".
"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? "

These are choices we face. Therefore, free will exists. And Paul tells us what the choices are.

Therefore simple observation tells us these are adverse spiritual matters or more precisely, a "spirit of disobedience" that exists, not forensic. This should be simple to see. Evil is not forensic, it is as Paul said, "present." We might even term it "a presence" that is not forensic, material in nature. Evil is "present."

If anyone else has followed and understands what smaller is posting, please explain it to me. I've asked for explanations, but they are not forthcoming.

Evil present is not and can not be allied with God in Christ.

No one said it could.

Nevertheless it IS present with us.

I think all believers know that.

This pits the Divine Holy Spirit of God in Christ in us, against that working which IS in our flesh as an adverse spiritual working.

Yes, we all know Gal 5:17. So, what is the point? How does this relate to eternal security?

From the "lose your salvation" crowd, they quite false think that they can make the sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us disappear. It doesn't and can't. Not by works. Not by declaration. Whatever we do we do with those workings PRESENT in our own flesh.

How about asking some of them if your view of them is correct. I suspect they will NOT agree with you.

And likewise, with the OSAS camp. Whatever 'good thing' that is cited for believers, which are all of course TRUE, does not and can not apply to the adverse spiritual component of these equations.

I have no idea what your sentence means.

So, both parties go round and round, never able to look upon what else is in our own flesh. And both parties quite vainly attempt to "justify" the "entirety" of what believers presently are.

I believe that it is your posts that keep going round and round. I have no idea what your point is.

What I want to know is this: how does your comments about the flesh and Spirit has to do with eternal security?

There is no eradication of this contrariness between the Spirit and the flesh, with indwelling sin and evil present in any of the debaters in these matters.

I'm not aware of anyone who tried to "eradicate" the contrariness. What are you talking about?

Both parties should recognize that there is an adverse spiritual component in the equations and quit trying to justify what can't be justified.

Again, no idea of what this means. Or how it relates to eternal security.

In Truth, we all meet on the same ground, and where we meet has remaining issues. We are and remain sinners, saved solely by Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ. NO man with these adverse spiritual components involved can be saved on their own.

Once again, PLEASE explain HOW "these adverse spiritual components" relate in ANY WAY to eternal security.

We are to have "division" between ourselves and our own adverse spiritual components that DO WORK in our flesh and that's all there is to it. It's not saved.

What's not saved? Our flesh? Of course not. Only the soul is saved. And we get NEW resurrection bodies, per 1 Cor 15.

It's not compliant. It's not obedient to the Spirit. It won't be saved.

And...no one I know of thinks that either.

It can be RULED and dominated over. But to say it is not there is blindness.

Once again, who claims otherwise?

And that's exactly WHY we have our problems.

No, the problem is trying to understand your vague posts, and lack of explanation.

It takes quite of bit of honesty applied to a believer even to be able to choke out the statement of truth, that evil is present with us.

So, that's the "problem", huh. Well, I doubt there is anyone on this thread who would argue that evil isn't present with us. So, how about that!? Problem solved.

 

[Mike]

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH

Huh?

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

Really?

Now, when anyone can show how each of these 8 things can be cancelled for any reason from Scripture, I'll believe your theory.

Better, but I believe you should replace "theory" with "interpretation". I would quote and respond to such presumptuous statements the same way if they were repeatedly coming from someone who doesn't believe in OSAS.

You can't lay out points like this and deem it the litmus test that must be countered in full to have any merit. Nor, could they. I know, I know. You don't set the standard. God does. Actually, you are using your interpretation of what scripture says as the standard; not what is said in scripture.

Your argument is solid if you say this is what you need to be convinced. It loses credibility when you say Truth relies on it.

 

[JLB]

Depends on what, exactly, a person believed in. For example. If a person believes for a while that Jesus has not risen, then becomes an atheist, this person is still not saved. Never was saved. A person must believe in the true and complete Gospel to become saved.

Another example is a person that believes for a while that being a 'christian' means to never experience trials and testing. Then that person experiences trials and testings and becomes an atheist. This person is still not saved. Never was. A person must believe in the True and complete Gospel to become saved. Nothing else saves a person under the New Covenant.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

The context of this teaching is, believing the message of the Gospel.

Is there something else a person can believe to be saved?

If so please share that with us.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Where do you find that? Rev 21:8 says nothing about "not overcoming". And I agree that the unbelieving will end up in the lake of fire. Why? Because they never received the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Your willful ignoring of the context, doesn't help your theory.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

Those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of like.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, such as becoming an atheist, are no longer believers.

If a person no longer believes, then becomes an atheist, are they still believers?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I already know that the unbeliever will end up in the lake of fire.

The unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.

Is a person who no longer believe's, a believing or unbelieving person?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your view is that a believer who ceases to believe, such as the second soil in Jesus' parable, becomes an unbeliever, and reverts back to an unsaved state. It is THAT view that I cannot find in Scripture. Where would I find the teaching that a saved person becomes an unsaved person FOR ANY REASON?

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

and again

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14




JLB

 

[JLB]

Nothing here about reverting back to an unsaved state.

It's about reverting back to unbelieving.

Believing people are promised eternal life.

Unbelieving people are not.


Please show me a scripture that says the unbelieving are promised eternal life?


JLB

 

[JLB]

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

Now, in order to prove that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

Believers are children of God, and forgiven of their sins, in which they are justified, and have God's seal upon them, and are saved through faith, and are a new creation, and will be given eternal life, when Jesus returns.


Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are promised the lake of fire.

The salvation of our soul will be received at the end, after they have been tested, not the beginning.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

The ones who receive the salvation of their souls at the end of their faith, are the believing, not the unbelieving, who believed for a while then became atheist's of Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist...


JLB

 

[chessman]

Is there something else a person can believe to be saved?

No. I didn't say there was. Why do you ask? (Retorical question). I just thought maybe you missed or misunderstood what I said in the post:

A person must believe in the true and complete Gospel to become saved.

But there certainly are persons (soils) that can hear what it takes to be saved and not understand it completely.

Lets's take soil #1. They heard what it takes to be saved, even had it in their hearts, but didn't understand it. Thus, they were never saved, right? (Direct and serious question)

I answer your questions directly, so a yes or no would be great, please.

 

[gr8grace3]

Nope. There is only relevance if the Bible actually addresses former believers as unbelievers. Which it doesn't. The Bible has a specific word for former believers; apostates.

And since God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is a gift of God, those who have believed, REGARDLESS of what happens after that, are still saved. Because they still have eternal life.

Only if the Bible plainly speaks of eternal life being revoked, or taken away, would I believe that a saved person can lose salvation.

Amen!!

And most believers are going to equate "a former believer" to someone who has just thrown up their hands and went back to their old lifestyle............When the major problem in todays Christianity is folks going the way of religion and human good. They have the OVERT sin problem pretty much cleaned up, but the human good problem(which God hates even more>pride<) runs rampant!!

God wants us to follow His Plan for our lives........90% of "former believers" are those who think salvation can be lost.

They have not lost salvation........but they have forgot the OH SO GREAT SALVATION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Religion will always point to the "former believer" who is foaming at the mouth, cussing Jesus Christ and renouncing their faith..........but the real problem is religious "nice" believers who have renounced His salvation and don't really know it.

Rom 8~~37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[JLB]

No. I didn't say there was. Why do you ask?

I asked because, you stated "depends on what they believe in"

Depends on what, exactly, a person believed in.

So, I will ask you again.

Is there something else a person can believe to be saved? [direct and serious question]

But there certainly are persons (soils) that can hear what it takes to be saved and not understand it completely.

Lets's take soil #1. They heard what it takes to be saved, even had it in their hearts, but didn't understand it. Thus, they were never saved, right? (Direct and serious question)

Reviewing what Jesus said, the group in example # 1, did not believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These folks did not believe.

Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Luke 8:12 NASB

The hard path where some seed fell represents the hard hearts of those who hear the words of God, but then the devil comes and steals the words away and prevents people from believing and being saved. Luke 8:12 NLT

“This story is about some of those people. The seed is the Word of God. The seeds on the road are those who hear the Word, but no sooner do they hear it than the Devil snatches it from them so they won’t believe and be saved. Luke 8:12 The Message



The folks in example # 2, did in fact believe... for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are by default, no longer believers.

They at one time, were believers, then they were threatened with tribulation, persecution and death and decided it was safer to no longer believe.

These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Mark 4:16-17

But the cowardly, unbelieving,... shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:36-39


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9


Testing is coming to the Church in America.

How many will continue to believe, and not fall away, or depart from the living God, but will be faithful unto death... so that Jesus can give
them the crown of life?

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


JLB

 

[chessman]

So, I will ask you again.

I answered your question already, twice. You even quoted it. No. You didn't answer mine. Makes your case look weak. Cause it is.

 

[JLB]

I answered your question already, twice. You even quoted it. No. You didn't answer mine. Makes your case look weak. Cause it is.

Please show me the post where you answered this question. Post number where you quoted my question with your answer.

Is there something else a person can believe to be saved?


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

What does it mean to be "lost"? One that commits sins? Sin is the problem between man and God Ezekiel 18:20. Sin is the nature that we are born with because of Adam. Sin is the nature, sins are the fruit of that nature. A lost person has a spirit but that spirit is not subject to the Spirt of God. What constitutes salvation? Our spirit being subject to the Spirit of God.
Romans 8:16 " The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God". Until our spirit is separated from our soul and given life from above, a person is lost.
Romans 8:14 " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God , they are the sons of God."

Galatians 5:19-21 gives what the "works of the flesh" (the fruits of the sin nature) are, Any one that practices, as a daily routine, these are not saved. Can a believer be overtaken by any of these? sure, but the Spirit convicts(convinces) the believer that they are guilty and the believer "confesses" and is cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

2 Timothy 1:12 " For the which cause also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

1 Thessalonians 6:23 " And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[FreeGrace]

You can't lay out points like this and deem it the litmus test that must be countered in full to have any merit. Nor, could they. I know, I know. You don't set the standard. God does. Actually, you are using your interpretation of what scripture says as the standard; not what is said in scripture.

I respectfully disagree. The 8 points I stated are what Scripture says what happens when one believes. They become a changed person, by God.

Therefore, in order to lose salvation, these changes would have to be undone. How could they not be?

How could one who has been given the free gift of eternal life end up in the second death? That is impossible.

So, those who believe that salvation can be lost must show Scripture that clearly indicates that these things can be undone.

Your argument is solid if you say this is what you need to be convinced. It loses credibility when you say Truth relies on it.

I believe my argument is solid because there are no verses that shows that any of the 8 things can be undone.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, such as becoming an atheist, are no longer believers.

If a person no longer believes, then becomes an atheist, are they still believers?
JLB

I've already answered that question.

But, here is what you haven't addressed yet:

In post #212, and 228 and now 232, I challenged your views with this:

However, ONCE a person believes, they BECOME totally different.

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

Now, in order to demonstrate that a saved person can lose their salvation, one MUST provide a Scripture that clearly shows that EACH of the 8 things are revoked or taken away.

The reason is this: there is NO WAY a person who has ANY of these 8 things can end up in the lake of fire.

In order to end up in the lake of fire, all 8 of these things (and probably a lot more) must be removed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Nothing here about reverting back to an unsaved state."

It's about reverting back to unbelieving.

Now, that's an interesting twist.

First you've claimed that one is saved when one believes, and is NOT saved when one ceases to believe.

Yet, here, it seems you're ignoring what comes with being in a stated state. There are changes that need to be undone if it were possible for anyone who has been saved to end up in the lake of fire.

Believing people are promised eternal life.

Saved people are promised eternal life.

Unbelieving people are not.

Unsaved people are not.

Please show me a scripture that says the unbelieving are promised eternal life?
JLB

I've already shown that those who have been given the free gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, a promise from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, in john 10:28.

And He promised in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

So, in order to demonstrate the possibility of losing eternal life, where does the Bible tell us that it can be taken away, for any reason?

And.....

However, ONCE a person believes, they BECOME totally different.

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

So, where does Scripture teach that any of these 8 things can

 

[chessman]

Please show me the post where you answered this question. Post number where you quoted my question with your answer.

Is there something else a person can believe to be saved?


JLB

Post # 251.
Now, please answer mine. To save your time, I'll ask it again:

Lets's take soil #1. They heard what it takes to be saved, even had it in their hearts, but didn't understand it. Thus, they were never saved, right?