Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are promised the lake of fire.

This is a recurring opinion without any substance. Please show any verse that promises those who return to unbelieving that they will end up in the lake of fire. Without speculation, the Bible does not come close to what you're claiming.

And, again, the Bible never describes a former believer as an unbeliever, as your posts do. So the very premise of your view is in error.

The Bible describes former believers as apostates. Now, please show where apostates are promised the lake of fire. That's how to prove your point.

The salvation of our soul will be received at the end, after they have been tested, not the beginning.

Once again, I believe there are no verses that teach this. However, since it seems you do, please provide clear verses that salvation is only after being tested.

Such a view smacks of a works salvation system. If we are saved by grace (and we ARE), then there is no testing involved.

The testing is for reward, which you've confused for entrance into the kingdom. But rewards are IN the kingdom.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

Why do you confuse "end of your faith" to mean end of your life?? I've asked this before, but you've not addressed it.

Here's the Greek word for "end" -
telos

1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

I don't see anything about "end of life" here.

My lexicon includes these meanings:
brought to completion, fully accomplished, fully developed, fully realized, thorough, complete, entire as opposed to what is partial and limited.

So, "end of faith" does NOT equate to "end of life", as it appears you are suggesting.

The ones who receive the salvation of their souls at the end of their faith, are the believing, not the unbelieving, who believed for a while then became atheist's of Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist...
JLB

The Bible clearly states that those who believe HAVE in the present tense eternal life. They have eternal life WHEN they believe. And those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, a promise from the Savior Himself. I will not argue with Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

All of which are instantly and easily reversed by God simply withdrawing his indwelling Spirit from them.
God can just as easily withdraw his Spirit as he can put it in a person.

John plainly says the condition for having the Son is that you abide (continue) in the Son:

"23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:23-24 NASB)


Because if you do not have the Son, you do not have eternal life:

"12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

John even warns us not to have anything to do with people who say otherwise, or else you are guilty of participating in their evil deeds:

"9Anyone who goes too far (thrusts the teaching of Christ behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God (IOW, GOD LEAVES); the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds." (2 John 1:9-11 NASB parenthesis mine)

John must be appalled to know that means Christians can't have anything to do with about 90% of the Protestant Church. This is no small matter, folks. This isn't just a difference of opinions going on here. But I know for the sake of this forum that's how we must handle it.

 

[JLB]

This is a recurring opinion without any substance. Please show any verse that promises those who return to unbelieving that they will end up in the lake of fire. Without speculation, the Bible does not come close to what you're claiming.

And, again, the Bible never describes a former believer as an unbeliever, as your posts do. So the very premise of your view is in error.

The Bible describes former believers as apostates. Now, please show where apostates are promised the lake of fire. That's how to prove your point.

Until you show scriptures that teach us the unbelieving will receive the promise of eternal, salvation, and inherit the kingdom of God, then this simple truth completely destroys the OSAS doctrine.

Your only response is to state your opinion, with scriptural support.



Are apostates believing or unbelieving people?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Bible clearly states that those who believe HAVE in the present tense eternal life. They have eternal life WHEN they believe. And those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, a promise from the Savior Himself. I will not argue with Him.

Is this promise true for the unbelieving apostates?

That would mean Judas Iscariot had eternal life, and could never lose it.

If so, then please provide the scriptures that teach this?



JLB

 

[smaller]

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. Not sin. Might want to tweak your thoughts.

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The statements of fact seem obvious enough. When (some) believers who see this actually believe it, they eventually come down to reckoning with two basic observations.

A. Since God doesn't count indwelling sin and evil present against us, God basically has no judgments whatsover to such actions in believers. This is what I might consider the "common" sight and a hypocritical one, since these same want to count sins against others.

or

B. That sin is counted against all, that there are consequences to sin, and that they are foreign to man in "origin." (Mark 4:15 for example shows sin in man by a foreign to man entity. 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 show essentially identically to Mark 4:15). And that God not only measures consequences in the now/temporal against these workings (seen or unseen on the exterior) but also renders eternal adverse judgment.

Romans 8:3 tells us Gods Stance regarding sin:

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Paul employs this understanding "against" the flesh precisely because of the above, in Gal. 5:17 for example, showing that the flesh is in fact 'condemned.' 1 Cor. 15:42-47 shows even further the dire position of the flesh, and it's ending, because of these facts. So does:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I might call all of these quite basic Christian facts.

I think you're tillting at windmills.

I've observed for quite some time that the positions you propose/espouse are void of scriptural reality in regards to adverse judgments both temporal and eternal.

Since you've put your real card on the table above, in your first statement, it is now apparent why. And why your claims can't hold scriptural water. You have 1/2 an equation trying to claim it's the whole equation. It's not.

 

[JLB]

Why do you confuse "end of your faith" to mean end of your life?? I've asked this before, but you've not addressed it.

Here's the Greek word for "end" -
telos

1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

I don't see anything about "end of life" here.

My lexicon includes these meanings:
brought to completion, fully accomplished, fully developed, fully realized, thorough, complete, entire as opposed to what is partial and limited.

So, "end of faith" does NOT equate to "end of life", as it appears you are suggesting.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

In the context here, as well as Luke 8:13, and Hebrews 3:12-14. and Hebrews 10:32-39, and Matthew 24;13, and Revelation 2:10, which says... Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life, it is by remaining faithful to the end, and not renouncing Jesus Christ in the face of persecution and death, which is the end of that person's life here on earth.

Here's an example from scripture, in the context of 1 Peter 1:6-9, about receiving the end of your faith, as correlating to the end of your life, in which they received the salvation of their souls.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

and again

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Revelation 12:11

You on the other hand are teaching people that a believer in Jesus Christ, can become an apostate, when persecuted during the tribulation, and serve the false christ, and take the mark of the beast, and still have eternal life, because OSAS.


9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. Revelation 7:9-15


Those who overcome, and keep their faith to the end of their life, will not be blotted out of the book of life.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a [martyr] witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:13-14


The context we have been discussing, dictates that end of faith and end of life are usually the same in this context.



JLB

 

[smaller]

What "parties" and what "obvious problems"? Your posts are too vague to follow.

Sin is "demonic." Plain enough?

Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 and many many more.

Get "all the parties" on the table of Christian theology. We'll find more than man, when we do.

 

[JLB]

Post # 251.
Now, please answer mine. To save your time, I'll ask it again:

So if there is nothing else, by which a person can believe to be saved, then why would you say "depends on what you are believing in".

This looks as if you are attempting to create some circular reasoning, to distract from the simple truth of Jesus' teaching.

This is shameful.

What's your question?

This is not a question.

This is you stating your opinion.

Lets's take soil #1. They heard what it takes to be saved, even had it in their hearts, but didn't understand it. Thus, they were never saved, right?

Again ask a question, not state your opinion, and tell me it's right.

I respectfully disagree. The 8 points I stated are what Scripture says what happens when one believes.

Believe, being the key.

Those who turn away from believing, in which they no longer believe, are no longer believers.


Case Closed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sin is "demonic." Plain enough?

No. Which is why you won't write out the scripture, because the scripture doesn't say sin is demonic.2

He who sins is of the devil...

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

This doesn't say sin is demonic.

It would be closer to say he who sins is demonic.

But that still isn't what the scripture says.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I listed these 8 things that occur when one believes in Jesus Christ:
1. They are born again. John 3:7
2. They are children of God. John 1:12
3. They are forgiven of all their sins. Acts 10:43
4. They are justified. Rom 5:1
5. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13
6. They are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
7. They are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
8. They HAVE eternal life. John 3:16

All of which are instantly and easily reversed by God simply withdrawing his indwelling Spirit from them.
God can just as easily withdraw his Spirit as he can put it in a person.

Please quote any Scripture that teaches that God has withdrawn the Holy Spirit from anyone in the NT. OT doesn't count, since the Holy Spirit wasn't given to all believers.

John plainly says the condition for having the Son is that you abide (continue) in the Son:

"23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

This is about fellowship, not controlling your salvation. In fact, we DON'T control our salvation. Jesus taught that He holds US in His hand, and that NO ONE (meaning no person) can remove the believer from His hand. That would obviously have to include the believer himself, being a person.

Plus the fact that there are no verses that warn of losing salvation.

Because if you do not have the Son, you do not have eternal life:

"12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

We have the Son because He holds the believer in His own hand. Securely. Not loosely, as some seem to imagine.

 

[FreeGrace]

Until you show scriptures that teach us the unbelieving will receive the promise of eternal, salvation, and inherit the kingdom of God, then this simple truth completely destroys the OSAS doctrine.

Nope. The onus is on those who claim salvation be lost from Scripture, not from speculation or mere opinion.

Your only response is to state your opinion, with scriptural support.

And my opinion MATCHES Scripture. But at least you've acknowledged that my opinion DOES have Scriptural support.

Are apostates believing or unbelieving people?
JLB

Why persist? I've ALREADY answered this. Are you just trolling now?

Until anyone can show from Scripture that the 8 things I listed can be undone, there is no reason to accept the opinion that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
The Bible clearly states that those who believe HAVE in the present tense eternal life. They have eternal life WHEN they believe. And those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, a promise from the Savior Himself. I will not argue with Him.

Is this promise true for the unbelieving apostates?

Did they receive the free gift of eternal life when they did believe? Yes.
Did Jesus promise that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. Yes.

So, while some don't like the answer, it is YES for apostates still having eternal life.

That would mean Judas Iscariot had eternal life, and could never lose it.

No. The Bible never notes that he ever believed. That is only speculation. In fact, when Jesus was washing the feet of all 12 disciples, He said this:
"Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” John 13:10

He plainly told Peter that he was saved, but Judas was not. Because Jesus then said this in the next verse:
"For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

If so, then please provide the scriptures that teach this?
JLB

Just did.

 

[chessman]

God can just as easily withdraw his Spirit as he can put it in a person.

In my A&T study, 'putting the Spirit of God in a person' is Biblically stated in the N.T. as;
1) Baptized with the Holy Spirit (see John 1:32)
2) Born of the Spirit (see John 3:6, 3:8)
3) Receiving the Spirit, who resides with you and will be in you (see John 7:39, 14:17, 1 Cor 2:12, 1 John 3:24)
4) Filled with the Holy Spirit, full of the Spirit (Acts 2:4, 6:3)
5) Circumcision of the heart by the Spirit (See Rom 2:29)
6) died but bound in the newness of the Spirit (see Rom 7:6, 8:10)
7) set free from the law of sin and death (see Rom 8:2)
8) having the Spirit living(dwelling in you (see Rom 8:11, 1 Cor 3:16)
9) becoming a son of God with confirmation of that fact (see Rom 8:14-16)
10) having the first fruits of the Spirit ( see Rom 8:23)
11) being washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit (see 1 Cor 6:11)
etc.
What N.T. Scriptures leads you to the conclusion that God can/does 'easily withdraw his Spirit'.

 

[FreeGrace]

You on the other hand are teaching people that a believer in Jesus Christ, can become an apostate, when persecuted during the tribulation, and serve the false christ, and take the mark of the beast, and still have eternal life, because OSAS.

I've already addressed this very thing, and am not a little surprised at this false statement.

I never said any believer would take the mark of the beast. And there is no indication from Scripture that any believer will take it. I do not go on opinion, speculation, or just guessing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sin is "demonic." Plain enough?

So what? How does that relate to eternal security? You've NEVER answered this question.

Get "all the parties" on the table of Christian theology. We'll find more than man, when we do.

So what? How does that relate to eternal security? You've never answered this question.

Salvation is between man and God. Not man, God, and angels. As it appears you believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

No. Which is why you won't write out the scripture, because the scripture doesn't say sin is demonic.2

He who sins is of the devil...

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

This doesn't say sin is demonic.

It would be closer to say he who sins is demonic.

But that still isn't what the scripture says.JLB

Seems to me your standards are rather selective regarding what Scripture says.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe, being the key.

Those who turn away from believing, in which they no longer believe, are no longer believers.
Case Closed.
JLB

What Scripture says this? I find it repeated often enough in your posts, but you've never provided ANY Scripture that says what you claim.

Is this another example of your "selective" standards regarding what Scripture says?

 

[smaller]

No. Which is why you won't write out the scripture, because the scripture doesn't say sin is demonic.2

He who sins is of the devil...

I think we can be quite assured from the scriptures that sin is demonic. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan STEALS Word from the heart. This is SIN and it is "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. When believers do NOT believe this, they in fact have been STOLEN FROM, in their own hearts, unable to see it, unable to believe it, because of this theft and the THIEF who commits SIN within them. 2 Cor. 4:4, Acts 26:18.

Jesus tells us clearly what "the devil" and his children do:

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 10:
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

When believers seek so adamantly not only to destroy, but to sentence any fallen in blindness victim of our adversary to eternal torture, they do have the same 'internal' problem as those they are seeking to "kill".

We should recognize believers by our conveyance of LIFE to each others, and to understand unto WHOM the scriptures direct "eternal eradication."

Paul gives us an easy example:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I do not think for a moment that Paul conveyed eternal life to that party, but the opposite.

We are to employ the adverse side of Gods Words to our own adversaries in the flesh. But this will be hard to see, until we see ourselves in the Light, which will prove darkness present.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Jesus, from His Own Mouth, connects "darkness" to/as the "power of Satan".

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

It is not "man" that we resist and fight. We do engage adverse spiritual components in our own flesh.

 

[smaller]

So what? How does that relate to eternal security? You've NEVER answered this question.

I've addressed the particulars to you in another post above. Hopefully you'll see what you think you see can't be justified by the scriptures.

Your claim is this:

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. Not sin. Might want to tweak your thoughts.

Paul stomps that claim quite securely into nothing in Romans 7:17-21.

Yes, sin dwelt in his own flesh, stated twice therein.

So, maybe some reworking is in order on your end?

So what?

Your claim is VOID of Gods Adverse Judgments against SIN in ANY in whom it is found.

For your claims, SIN and EVIL for believers is a SO WHAT?!

That, I reject. Gods Judgments are NOT VOID.

 

[chessman]

So if there is nothing else, by which a person can believe to be saved, then why would you say "depends on what you are believing in".

Because it (salvation) does most certainly depend on what it is exactly that a person believes. As I said, and as I gave examples for. And it's not shameful to say so, as you claim.

What's your question?

This is not a question.

This is you stating your opinion.

Actually it was a question. But here, let me simplify the question for you with respect to the parable of the soils:

Can a person (a soil) who does not understand the true and complete Gospel become saved (yes or no)?