Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If God takes away or removes any of His gifts that He's already given, then He HAS REGRETS for giving it in the first place. That's just basic understanding of word meaning."

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

Often, your responses are baffling and I don't see any relevance to your response to what I posted. I explained what having no regrets means, so why was John 15:2 noted??

Do those who come to be "in Him", do so because of faith in Him, or because they worked to earn their place in Him?

Do you understand the WAY one comes to be "in Him"??

Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

Now, who does the sealing, so that the believer is "in Him"? The Holy Spirit.

Who do you know strong enough to break this sealing with the Holy Spirit? I'd love to know.

In this passage, it says "He" takes away the branch from being [connected] "in Him". Who is the "He" that does the removing of the branch:
A. The Devil?
B. Your Pastor?
C. God?JLB

I'm still trying to figure out why John 15:2 was mentioned in response to my comment, since there isn't any relevance that I can see.

And why would anyone add to Scripture, such as in your example of adding in brackets "connected"? Please explain your editorial license to add.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 "Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to life.

What's your point?

LOL

He was simply answering your question to me, and beat me to it.

That was his point; to answer your question, which apparently you did not know.

Does this define which angels we are to judge, whether the angels who sinned during the days of Noah, or the angels of God?

But who cares? Does the Bible answer this question? So how is it relevant to anything?

I pointed out that believers will NOT BE EQUAL to angels because we will be JUDGING them. And you asked for Scripture to support my claim. Which I did, as well as dirtfarmer.

Either way, it does not diminish what the word says about being equal to the angels, and sons of God: being sons of the resurrection.

And I proved that the Greek does NOT say "equal" as the inferior KJV indicates, but "are like the angels" but only in that we cannot die. Like angels who cannot die.

There will be NO EQUALITY between angels and humans. Now, they are superior to humans, but then, we will be superior to them, by the fact that we will judge them.

Which you did not know. And Paul anticipated..

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Not greater than the angels, but equal to the angels.

Nope. We will be like the angels, in that we cannot die, just like the angels cannot die.

But, we will JUDGE them.

Which you didn't know.

 

[smaller]

Calvins perseverance of the saints is way different than eternal security and the Lord Jesus Christs preservation of the saints.

Calvins perseverance of the saints is the exact same thing as the Armins loss of salvation..........just worded a bit a different.

Brilliant conclusion. Calvin could not say, just as the Armin's couldn't or the freewiller's can't today, that they are saved. Even worse, with Calvin they could do everything a typical works believer thinks they should do to (get/retain) salvation and it could still turn out that they wasted their time because Divine Sovereignty might simply say, "you're a tare, get lost."

They have what they call reasonable assurance(s), but that also includes perpetual doubt because there is no such thing as 'full assurance' in their sights.

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

[gr8grace3]

There will be NO EQUALITY between angels and humans. Now, they are superior to humans, but then, we will be superior to them, by the fact that we will judge them.

It is truly sad that the majority of believers have no clue of the grace gifts that are given to each and everyone of us at the moment of salvation.

It should be common knowledge among believers that we are without a doubt going to be higher than the angels. In fact, we become higher than the angels positionally, the moment we believe in Christ for His salvation.

Our union with Christ, gives us many blessings and gifts...........one of which is being higher than the angels the moment we believe.

Heb 1 and Heb 2 read with the truth of our union in Christ clearly shows this.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brilliant conclusion. Calvin could not say, just as the Armin's couldn't or the freewiller's can't today, that they are saved.

This is quite mistaken. I believe that mankind has free will, and I can say with absolute assurance that I am saved by Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is truly sad that the majority of believers have no clue of the grace gifts that are given to each and everyone of us at the moment of salvation.

It should be common knowledge among believers that we are without a doubt going to be higher than the angels. In fact, we become higher than the angels positionally, the moment we believe in Christ for His salvation.

Our union with Christ, gives us many blessings and gifts...........one of which is being higher than the angels the moment we believe.

Heb 1 and Heb 2 read with the truth of our union in Christ clearly shows this.

Amen!!

 

[smaller]

This is quite mistaken. I believe that mankind has free will, and I can say with absolute assurance that I am saved by Jesus Christ.

I don't see it. There are 3 wills in operation. Gods, man's, the devil's. Often in the same set of shoes. See Matt. 16:15-23 for easy example of Mark 4:15 in action. Matt. 16:15-23 is identical to Mark 4:15, showing 3 wills "in man."

If there is one fault of typical OSAS, it is the utter failure to account for judgments of sin/evil in believers. Scripture does not present what OSAS thinks they see for the "whole" of themselves, currently.

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

And we should realize we all "do" evil. Romans 7:19

But we've had this conversation more than once. God does not deal with "man only" or "believers only" on earth. God also deals adversely with spiritual adversaries who do have their place in the flesh. 1 John 3:8, and our flesh is and will remain quite factually 'contrary to' the Spirit, and vice versa. Gal. 5:17.

Typical OSAS tends to gravitate away from certain facts of scripture and refuses to take them into account.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Perhaps you can show how the above involves "only man" and their will when there is quite obviously 'another party' that is not man involved?

 

[FreeGrace]

You said this:
"Brilliant conclusion. Calvin could not say, just as the Armin's couldn't or the freewiller's can't today, that they are saved."

So I said this:
"This is quite mistaken. I believe that mankind has free will, and I can say with absolute assurance that I am saved by Jesus Christ."

I don't see it.

What's not to see? You don't believe that those who believe in free will can say that they are saved.

Yet, I just did say that.

There are 3 wills in operation. Gods, man's, the devil's. Often in the same set of shoes. See Matt. 16:15-23 for easy example of Mark 4:15 in action. Matt. 16:15-23 is identical to Mark 4:15, showing 3 wills "in man."

Ho hum, not that again. The only free will man has is the freedom to choose from available options. And contrary to your views, the devil's will cannot overcome the believer's will unless the believer allows it.

Or James 4:7 cannot be possible: Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

If there is one fault of typical OSAS, it is the utter failure to account for judgments of sin/evil in believers.

Fortunately, there aren't any faults of eternal security. And your second comment doesn't make any sense. The doctrine of eternal security doesn't "account" for anything other than what it is; eternal security.

and judgments of sin/evil has NO RELEVANCE or effect on one's eternal security. And your view has yet to be clearly explained. But your view of Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is confused.

Scripture does not present what OSAS thinks they see for the "whole" of themselves, currently.

Why would anyone include the devil for the "whole of themselves"? He has no effect on any believer's eternal security.

But since you keep thinking he does, please explain how he does, and use Scripture, please.

But we've had this conversation more than once.

And I still have absolutely no idea what you're trying to communicate.

God does not deal with "man only" or "believers only" on earth.

But God DOES deal with each person singularly. Why would He include fallen angels? Please explain.

God also deals adversely with spiritual adversaries who do have their place in the flesh.

Actually, they DON'T have a place in the flesh. And their judgment is certain.

1 John 3:8, and our flesh is and will remain quite factually 'contrary to' the Spirit, and vice versa. Gal. 5:17.

So?

Typical OSAS tends to gravitate away from certain facts of scripture and refuses to take them into account.

What in the world does this mean? It's just a very vague statement that makes no sense. Could you please elaborate a bunch?

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I suppose this has something to do with your as yet unexplained views. So, what does this verse mean?

Perhaps you can show how the above involves "only man" and their will when there is quite obviously 'another party' that is not man involved?

Sure. Easy. The devil only snares those who didn't resist him. Remember James 4:7??

And God judges the believer who gets snared by the devil.

Apparently you're not familiar with the FACT that the devil and his angels have ALREADY been judged and are headed to the lake of fire.

But, don't take my word for it. Let's examine some Scripture.

Matt 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

Rev 19:10 - And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, there you have it, as to the devil and his band of fallen angels being judged for their own sins.

And man judged for failing to receive the free gift of eternal life.

The devil's judgment has NO BEARING on man's judgment. And vice verse.

And you haven't explained otherwise.

 

[smaller]

You said this:
"Brilliant conclusion. Calvin could not say, just as the Armin's couldn't or the freewiller's can't today, that they are saved."

Well, that's true, ain't it?

So I said this:
"This is quite mistaken. I believe that mankind has free will, and I can say with absolute assurance that I am saved by Jesus Christ."

What's not to see? You don't believe that those who believe in free will can say that they are saved.

I don't believe anyone believes or can say that Jesus Is Lord without the Holy Spirit's involvement within them. So, no, not alone in their will in those statements.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Yet, I just did say that.

Maybe that's what you think in your own mind, but that's not what is really happening. The Spirit of Christ does dwell in us.

Ho hum, not that again. The only free will man has is the freedom to choose from available options. And contrary to your views, the devil's will cannot overcome the believer's will unless the believer allows it.

Regardless it does show and prove another will is involved, which is the point to start with. Just as it was for every one of us prior, in our spiritual blinding by that 'other party.' Eph. 2:2.

God has to "deal" with the other party "in man" in order for them to believe. Otherwise it is Gods choice to leave them in their blinded state AND lock them down in unbelief.

Or James 4:7 cannot be possible: Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

And again, the 'need' for resistance to 'a different will' is mandatory to avoid RE capture. I don't think such will be lost, but that's another topic.

Fortunately, there aren't any faults of eternal security. And your second comment doesn't make any sense. The doctrine of eternal security doesn't "account" for anything other than what it is; eternal security.

Shown this before. 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8. The devil IS involved with man, internally, in the form of "evil present" and indwelling sin. Whatever extends to believers does NOT extend to the opposers and enemies of Christ.

and judgments of sin/evil has NO RELEVANCE or effect on one's eternal security.

It does entail "loss."

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And your view has yet to be clearly explained. But your view of Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is confused.

I read the facts that are there to be seen. Did Paul have temptations? Yes, even in his flesh. Gal. 4:13-14. Does the tempter tempt internally? Again, yes. Not everything in the current package of "believer" is just man. The flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit because of the activity of the adversary therein.

I don't expect the flesh is too keen on agreeing to these facts, and will instead, oppose them, as it is subject to do.

 

[JLB]

Nope. We will be like the angels, in that we cannot die, just like the angels cannot die.

But, we will JUDGE them.

Which you didn't know.

I know what the scriptures say.

There isn't a reference to WHICH angels will be JUDGED, whether the angels who were cast down to hell, or angels of God.

It will be to those who are counted worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection of the dead, that will have the honor of being called sons of God, and be equal to the angels.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


JLB

 

[JLB]

And I proved that the Greek does NOT say "equal" as the inferior KJV indicates, but "are like the angels" but only in that we cannot die. Like angels who cannot die.

There will be NO EQUALITY between angels and humans. Now, they are superior to humans, but then, we will be superior to them, by the fact that we will judge them.

More presumption for you.

I'm not surprised.

Post the scripture that says which angels will be judged by humans.

Post the scriptures that say we will be superior to the angels.

Post the scriptures that say there will be no equality between angels and humans.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Often, your responses are baffling and I don't see any relevance to your response to what I posted. I explained what having no regrets means, so why was John 15:2 noted??

You mean you have no answer for the plain words of Jesus.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


It's funny to see that one sentence from Jesus Christ, completely exposes your false man made doctrine for what it is.

Just answer the question Freegrace, if you can.

• In this passage, it says "He" takes away the branch from being [connected] "in Him". Who is the "He" that does the removing of the branch:

A. The Devil?
B. Your Pastor?
C. God?


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

I know what the scriptures say.

There isn't a reference to WHICH angels will be JUDGED, whether the angels who were cast down to hell, or angels of God.

It will be to those who are counted worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection of the dead, that will have the honor of being called sons of God, and be equal to the angels.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you knew what the scriptures said then you would know that Jude:6 states " And the angels that kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of that great day."

Also 2 Peter 2:4 " For God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

FreeGrace is correct: When we submit ourselves to God and resist the devil, he will flee from us as James 4:7 states.

 

[JLB]

If you knew what the scriptures said then you would know that Jude:6 states " And the angels that kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of that great day."

Judgement of the great day, means these angels who were cast down to hell, because of their disobedience during the days of Noah, will be judged.

Because I do know the scriptures and what they say, I made this statement:

The bible doesn't specify if we will judge these angels who sinned, or the angels of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace is correct: When we submit ourselves to God and resist the devil, he will flee from us as James 4:7 states.

Of course the devil will flee from us if we have submitted ourselves unto God, which means we obey God.

And, if we resist the devil.

The devil isn't going to flee from anyone who is disobedient and rebellious, because they are in line to receive God's wrath just like the devil, and are under the devils domain.

Here is a reminder.

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

You mean you have no answer for the plain words of Jesus.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


It's funny to see that one sentence from Jesus Christ, completely exposes your false man made doctrine for what it is.

Just answer the question Freegrace, if you can.

• In this passage, it says "He" takes away the branch from being [connected] "in Him". Who is the "He" that does the removing of the branch:

A. The Devil?
B. Your Pastor?
C. God?


JLB

Just a simple Greek study will show you that ," He takes away" is actually "lifts up." the believer who is not producing fruit...........God encourages and "weeds" out the plot. He even prunes those who are producing fruit.......pruning involves cutting off of some branches!

The Lord Jesus Christ does the lifting up..........the majority of believers and professing believers in this day and age are the ones who are quick to toss them in the LoF.

New American Standard Bible
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Judgement of the great day, means these angels who were cast down to hell, because of their disobedience during the days of Noah, will be judged.

Because I do know the scriptures and what they say, I made this statement:

The bible doesn't specify if we will judge these angels who sinned, or the angels of God.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 6:3 " Know ye not that we shall judge angel? Which angels are we going to judge? the ones that didn't sin or the ones that have been reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the day of judgment of the great day? 2 Peter 2:9 " The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." Is this not in context with verse 4?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Of course the devil will flee from us if we have submitted ourselves unto God, which means we obey God.

And, if we resist the devil.

The devil isn't going to flee from anyone who is disobedient and rebellious, because they are in line to receive God's wrath just like the devil, and are under the devils domain.

Here is a reminder.

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

While I do believe that Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking those whom he may devour, I do not believe that anyone that is a child of God can be "under the devil's domain. Unless God removes the "hedge" that he has around us or if we have unconfessed sins, the devil cannot touch us.
Salvation has 3 parts:
1) we are saved from the penalty of sin
2) we are saved from the power of sin
3) when we are in the presence of Christ our savior, then we will have salvation from the presence of sin.

1 John 3:8 He who practices sin is of the devil. Saints(believers) may be overtaken in a faulty(sin) but they realize that fellowship has been broken or hindered and then they confess and fellowship is restore. I didn't say relationship was broken but fellowship. If our relationship could be broken, then we would loose our salvation and I don't believe that it is possible for salvation to be lost.

 

[Mike]

Please watch the rhetoric. The participants in this discussion appear to be knowledgeable of scripture. Saying they don't know it or that their interpretation of scripture is "laughable" does not further the discussion. Respect the member. Debate the issue.

 

[FreeGrace]

You said this:
"Brilliant conclusion. Calvin could not say, just as the Armin's couldn't or the freewiller's can't today, that they are saved."

Well, that's true, ain't it?

No, it isn't. As I explained clearly.

So I said this regarding your statement:
"This is quite mistaken. I believe that mankind has free will, and I can say with absolute assurance that I am saved by Jesus Christ."

What's not to see? You don't believe that those who believe in free will can say that they are saved."

Then you ignored where I said I believe in free will and also claim that I am saved. Which refutes your comment.

I don't believe anyone believes or can say that Jesus Is Lord without the Holy Spirit's involvement within them. So, no, not alone in their will in those statements.

Is this a suggestion that the Holy Spirit overcomes the will of others? That's really Calvinism.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Why should anyone think this has any effect on man's free will??

Maybe that's what you think in your own mind, but that's not what is really happening. The Spirit of Christ does dwell in us.

Of course He does. But what does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have to do with man's freedom of choice? Please explain.

Regardless it does show and prove another will is involved, which is the point to start with. Just as it was for every one of us prior, in our spiritual blinding by that 'other party.' Eph. 2:2.

Regardless, you STILL haven't shown in ANY WAY how "another will is involved" in eternal security or free will.

God has to "deal" with the other party "in man" in order for them to believe.

Oh, really? Where did that come from? Please support your claims with Scripture.

Otherwise it is Gods choice to leave them in their blinded state AND lock them down in unbelief.

Sounds very Calvinistic to me.

And again, the 'need' for resistance to 'a different will' is mandatory to avoid RE capture. I don't think such will be lost, but that's another topic.

2

Shown this before. 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8. The devil IS involved with man, internally, in the form of "evil present" and indwelling sin.

So what! How does that relate to either eternal security or free will? Quit STALLING and start explaining your mysterious views.

Whatever extends to believers does NOT extend to the opposers and enemies of Christ.

2

I said this:
"and judgments of sin/evil has NO RELEVANCE or effect on one's eternal security."

It does entail "loss."

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Oh, for heaven's sake!! That verse supports MY comment, not yours. What will be lost is reward, "but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED".

Again, eternal security is upheld. Loss is related to reward, not one's security or salvation.