Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

All I have to do is post what the scripture says.

No. One needs to do MORE than that. They must understand what is MEANT.

...your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

I thought the discussion was about dying, not being lost. Seems the goal posts keep moving. Like a target.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• The man has sheep; their are His sheep.
• One of his sheep goes astray, and is lost.
• This sheep that belonged to the shepherd, went astray and was then counted as a sinner that needed repentance.

Even though lost, they are STILL His sheep. Right? Just like the father was STILL the father and the son was STILL the son in the parable of the prodigal. That NEVER CHANGED.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Well, the real problem is misunderstanding what "takes away" means. It doesn't mean "disconnected", as you've indicated."

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

I see, so are you teaching that branches that are connected "in Him" are cast into the fire and burned?
JLB

What I see continue to be the failure to properly understand what "take away" means. You've given NO EVIDENCE to accept your opinion about what it means.

 

[smaller]

Actually, irrelevant to free will. Man makes his own choices, from what is available to choose from. And Paul clarified what is available in Rom 6, and to whom we present our bodies as slaves.

No man, by their own (non existing blinded by the god of this world supposed) freewill, can take Gods Mercy by that will:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The mind/will of the unbeliever is in fact blinded by the god of this world. 2 Cor. 4:4. I may even observe that when this distinction can not be seen, it is a working of that same god of this world.

This seems to very clearly teach that man doesn't make his own choices, but that God is making the choices for him. Welcome to Calvinism.

Scriptures teach that blinded unbelievers DO work Gods Will, even on the other side of the ledgers, with EVIL:

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Not a single one of them could have "chosen" by their own (not their will alone, but blinded by the god of this world in mind) will to do or perform any differently. God Himself DIRECTED their courses. Jesus was not sacrificed by the "freewill" of MAN. But by Gods Determinate Will and Counsel OVER ALL the players in that drama.

And we ourselves, remain, AFTER salvation, with this:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

You can claim "IT DOESN'T MATTER" but I don't buy the Hillary Clinton gospel.

 

[JLB]

No. One needs to do MORE than that. They must understand what is MEANT.

What is meant is what is clearly stated.

His sheep who go astray are lost, and likened a sinner who needs to repent.

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• The man has sheep; their are His sheep.
• One of his sheep goes astray, and is lost.
• This sheep that belonged to the shepherd, went astray and was then counted as a sinner that needed repentance.

The only way a person doesn't understand what is plainly stated by Jesus, is they have willfully rejected the knowledge from God.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge... Hosea 4:6



JLB

 

[JLB]

I thought the discussion was about dying, not being lost. Seems the goal posts keep moving. Like a target.

...your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

This verse hasn't changed, nor it's meaning.

Even though lost, they are STILL His sheep. Right? Just like the father was STILL the father and the son was STILL the son in the parable of the prodigal. That NEVER CHANGED.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• The man has sheep; their are His sheep.
• One of his sheep goes astray, and is lost.
• This sheep that belonged to the shepherd, went astray and was then counted as a sinner that needed repentance.

The only way a person doesn't understand what is plainly stated by Jesus, is they have willfully rejected the knowledge from God.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

What does Calvin's preservation of the saint have to do with my quote of Rom 11:29?

Absolutely nothing.
That was my point.

And prove that Paul was talking about God's election of Israel in 11:29. iow, prove that the gifts of God is Israel's election.

It's what Paul is talking about in chapter 11.
It's right in front of you on the page.

Where in the Bible has anyone discarded any gift of God?

I have posted you the scriptures which clearly show that salvation can be lost or discarded.
You were unable to comprehend what they said just as you demonstrated that are unable to understand what Romans 11 is talking about.
I can't help you.

 

[smaller]

He has chosen to reject the knowledge of God.

What is so sad, is he is bringing people down with him.
JLB

There are many doubt peddlers in christianity. We know them by their doubt.

2 Cor. 13:
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Who seeks doubt and wrath on another believer anyway? This is not the working of God in Christ.

Luke 12:29
And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

We have only one command to the fallen. Restore. Or we too may fall into the snare of the devil.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

1 Timothy 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

When any believer lacks judgment, they should look upon themselves only, and they could, if they were honest, find the reality of their own flesh, and perhaps not worry about the state of others:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We all bear these things before our Maker. We are no better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.

Titus 2:
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Jude 1:
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Titus 3:
2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Doubters are a dime a dozen. Believers who desire to cast other believers to the eternal flames of hell are NOT of God in Christ. They are merely doubters of Gods Saving Love, Forgiveness, Grace and Mercy in Christ unto those who BELIEVE His Eternal Conveyances in whom Christ dwells, by faith, not doubt.

 

[JLB]

There are many doubt peddlers in christianity. We know them by their doubt.

Actually the truth is faith is becoming more and more scarce, and people need to know that they can lose or depart from the faith.

That's the relevant warning.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Jesus said it this way:

I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
Matthew 18:8

Persevering and continuing is what true faith is all about.

Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’” 6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” Matthew 18:1-8


That's why Paul says...

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

and again

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

We who are reconciled to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, will continue to be reconciled as we continue in the faith, and are not moved away from our hope in Him.


It's not about doubt, it's about FAITH... and continuing in the faith, lest we have believed in vain.



JLB

 

[WIP]

This thread is taking the path down into the pit just as virtually every OSAS vs nonOSAS thread over the past year. Let's start checking the attitudes at the door, as it were, and act like the Christians as claimed to be!

Address the topic and not each other and do it politely and with respect.

 

[JLB]

Jude 1:
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Almost.

Here is what it says.

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20-21

Praying in the Holy Spirit.

Which brings us back to my most relevant question, which you ignored, and side stepped.


Are you baptized with the Holy Spirit ?... for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No man, by their own (non existing blinded by the god of this world supposed) freewill, can take Gods Mercy by that will:

I do not know what this sentence means. Please clarify.

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Do you understand what that means? It was in reference to pharaoh specifically. And He hardened him by allowing him to live longer.

Ex 9:15-17
15 “For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth.
16 “But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.
17 “Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.

v.15 "cut off" means to die physically.
v.16 God allowed Pharaoh to continue to live (remain) in order to show him His power.
v.17 But Pharaoh continued to resist God's will to let His people go.

By allowing Pharaoh to 'remain' (continue to live), Pharaoh was hardened more.

iow, God didn't make Pharaoh hard or harder. Pharaoh did it to himself.

You can claim "IT DOESN'T MATTER" but I don't buy the Hillary Clinton gospel.

[edited, staff]

I didn't understand the rest of your statements or how they related to the verses quoted.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is meant is what is clearly stated.

Well, words mean things. And no one has shown YET that to be "cut off" means to have the seal with the Holy Spirit broken, or eternal life revoked, or to die spiritually, which is apparently your view of the phrase.

His sheep who go astray are lost, and likened a sinner who needs to repent.

I don't think anyone here argues with this.

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• The man has sheep; their are His sheep.
• One of his sheep goes astray, and is lost.
• This sheep that belonged to the shepherd, went astray and was then counted as a sinner that needed repentance.

The lost sheep are STILL the shepherds. They were only physically separated from him. Not eternally, as your view seems to be suggesting.

The only way a person doesn't understand what is plainly stated by Jesus, is they have willfully rejected the knowledge from God.

I certainly agree. And I'm thinking of what He said in John 5:24 and 10:28 about eternal security. No one has YET shown that He wasn't teaching eternal security. He clearly was.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge... Hosea 4:6
JLB

So true for so many people.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What does Calvin's preservation of the saint have to do with my quote of Rom 11:29? Absolutely nothing.

Absolutely nothing.
That was my point.

Then why even bring it up?

I then said this:
"And prove that Paul was talking about God's election of Israel in 11:29. iow, prove that the gifts of God is Israel's election."

It's what Paul is talking about in chapter 11.
It's right in front of you on the page.

Then please cite the exact verse that mentions that election is described as a gift. "Cause I'm having lots of trouble finding any verse that says that.

I have posted you the scriptures which clearly show that salvation can be lost or discarded.

No, you've posted verses that you believe teach that, but none of them say it.

You were unable to comprehend what they said just as you demonstrated that are unable to understand what Romans 11 is talking about.
I can't help you.

The opinion is mutual.

 

[JLB]

Well, words mean things. And no one has shown YET that to be "cut off" means to have the seal with the Holy Spirit broken, or eternal life revoked, or to die spiritually, which is apparently your view of the phrase.

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• The man has sheep; their are His sheep.
• One of his sheep goes astray, and is lost.
• This sheep that belonged to the shepherd, went astray and was then counted as a sinner that needed repentance.

Do you know the difference between a sinner who is lost, and needs to repent in order to be reconciled to God, and a saint who is in fact reconciled to God through their faith in Him?

One is lost, and on their way to hell.
The other is not.

Likewise the prodigal son was lost, but returned to be reconciled back to his father, just as a sinner who is lost needs to do, in order to be reconciled back to God.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually the truth is faith is becoming more and more scarce, and people need to know that they can lose or depart from the faith.

They only have to read their Bibles to know that.

But the dispute is the error that losing faith results in losing salvation. There are NO verses that say such a thing. ZERO for those counting.

That's the relevant warning.

All warnings in the Bible are revelant.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

I find it quite interesting that in EVERY verse that warns against departing the faith, or not continuing in the faith, that the writer NEVER attaches such an action with loss of salvation. None. Or zero for those counting.

Jesus said it this way:

I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
Matthew 18:8

Those who have read Revelation will have read about the 144,000, plus all the ones who lost their heads as a testimony for Jesus in the Tribulation. So, yes, He will find faith on the earth.

Persevering and continuing is what true faith is all about.

No, persevering and continuing is what all believers are commanded to do. For spiritual growth and rewards.

Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’” 6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” Matthew 18:1-8


That's why Paul says...

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Please cite the exact verse or verses that tell me that those who don't persevere will lose their salvation.

and again

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

This passage isn't about staying saved IF one continues in the faith. It's about God being able to "present believers holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight ----- IF believers continue in the faith.

It's right there, in black and white, clearly stated. It has nothing to do with keeping one's salvation.

iow, Paul is saying that the ONLY WAY God CAN present the believer holy, blameless and above reproach is IF the believer continues in the faith.

We who are reconciled to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, will continue to be reconciled as we continue in the faith, and are not moved away from our hope in Him.

Please quote a verse to support your opinion here. I don't believe there are any.

 

[JLB]

The lost sheep are STILL the shepherds.

The lost sheep are as sinners who must repent, or be lost forever, just exactly like a sinner who refuses to repent.

‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:6-7

Lost sheep need to repent or they will go to hell.

Jesus came to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matthew 15:24


Just like the Lord's servant who became unfaithful and was assigned with the hypocrites.

47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:47-51


Lost sheep go to hell.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Please quote a verse to support your opinion here. I don't believe there are any.

Everyone can plainly see what is written.

[edited, staff]

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you know the difference between a sinner who is lost, and needs to repent in order to be reconciled to God, and a saint who is in fact reconciled to God through their faith in Him?

One is lost, and on their way to hell.
The other is not.

So, the sheep who didn't get lost were saved and on their way to heaven? Yet, the sheep continued to be His sheep, right?
And the younger son wasn't going to hell until he left his father?

Seems quite a leap to me.

Likewise the prodigal son was lost, but returned to be reconciled back to his father, just as a sinner who is lost needs to do, in order to be reconciled back to God.

What I see is a son who broke fellowship, not relationship, with his father, and was restored to fellowship when he repented, turned back, and confessed his sins. Which is what I also read in 1 John 1.

 

[JLB]

So, the sheep who didn't get lost were saved and on their way to heaven? Yet, the sheep continued to be His sheep, right?
And the younger son wasn't going to hell until he left his father?

Seems quite a leap to me.

What I see is a son who broke fellowship, not relationship, with his father, and was restored to fellowship when he repented, turned back, and confessed his sins. Which is what I also read in 1 John 1.

Those who repent are saved.

Those who do not repent remain lost.

Can you show me an example of an unrepentant sinner who is saved?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The lost sheep are as sinners who must repent, or be lost forever, just exactly like a sinner who refuses to repent.

They still belong to the shepherd.

Lost sheep go to hell.JLB

You've tried to mix and match a lot of various verses. But you've not shown that the parable of the prodigal is about losing or regaining salvation.