Religious Extremism

[Nick]

Thank you for magnifying my point.

Pretty much everything can be interpreted in a violent light. You stated that that is not a startling revelation.

Are we done? Or do you want to stop playing games and explain?

 

[kidcanman]

Are we done? Or do you want to stop playing games and explain?

I'm not playing games. My point is that extremism transcends religion, because every religious book can be interpreted in an "extreme"(violent) light.

You agree with the premise and yet you still don't understand the conclusion.

 

[Nick]

I'm not playing games. My point is that extremism transcends religion, because every religious book can be interpreted in an "extreme"(violent) light.

You agree with the premise and yet you still don't understand the conclusion.

I agree that things can be interpreted in many different ways. This thread proves it. And it doesn't stop with religion.

But merely saying that a passage in the Bible condones violence by Christians does not make it so, especailly that it clearly does not.


I think we're done.

 

[Mike]

I did not state that somebody has used the verse in any way. And I also did not state that I think that it conveys a violent message. What I stated was that it is a verse that can be misinterpreted in a violent light. And of course that is obvious.

Kid, I believe I've understood you throughout this thread. You aren't using this verse to say it truly calls Christians to violence. You are saying Christians can misuse this verse to justify violence toward another set of believers, right?

I believe this is very true, however I don't believe that the Bible is even remotely close to the Koran in its condoning of violence. In the Koran, there are many versus that are straight to the point, and I see the impact of it throughout the world. In Christianity, you have lunatics who bomb abortion clinics and defend it with scripture. These are isolated cases, usually carried out by singular people. In Islam, you have wide-spread violence in the name of Allah. You can't compare the actions of the U.S. government, which acts in defense of its country, to the actions of Muslims, who act in defense of their faith. These are vastly different.

 

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran I did not say that you killed anybody.

But if you search wikipedia for Afghanistan civilian casualties you will find that U.S soldiers (not Afghan insurgents) killed at least 6,215-9,007 innocent civilians directly and 9,415-29,007 indirectly.

And I'm sure the Afghan government will say that those numbers are at the very least.

wikipedia? no thanks, i can if really wanted search for the facts via actuall official channels. i know where to go. and yeah the afghan goverment the same one that well kills christians that we put a stop to. the one so corrupt etc.

i once like karzai but now i dont. i dont trust him

and no. theres no orders of that nature saying that they did it aint going to cut it.

accidents yes but oh yeah heres some honorable deaths of muslims that often kill their own.

[video=youtube;Y4uJFQZ96eI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4uJFQZ96eI[/video]

looks a few muslims died in that one. im sure the ones next to it on the other side died,yup the enemy isnt real selective

the taliban didnt tell a village to the north called narangay to stop going to get aid from us.

they did indeed and shot three or four kids,

the enemy also shot one of us with thirty rounds in the head after killing him. if i do that i would be severly punished.

 

[Stormcrow]

My point is that extremism transcends religion, because every religious book can be interpreted in an "extreme"(violent) light.

Still waiting for you either to defend or renounce the violence and exploitation that happens in the name of "Allah."

You can start with some of these:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=38397&p=598954&viewfull=1#post598954

 

[Stormcrow]

Huge roadside bomb in Iraq, the components of which were - more than likely - supplied by Iran.

And Obama was afraid destroying or recovering our drone would be perceived as an act of war when Iran has been killing our troops since we've been there???

Words simply can't express my contempt, disdain, and disgust for our "Idiot-in-Chief."

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I did not state that somebody has used the verse in any way. And I also did not state that I think that it conveys a violent message. What I stated was that it is a verse that can be misinterpreted in a violent light. And of course that is obvious.

Yes, you did state that Revelation 19:11 had been used in an extreme way to justify violence:

The truth is that if one takes the teachings of Muhammad to the extreme you get Osama Bin Laden. If one takes the teachings of Jesus Christ to the extreme you get George Bush and the Iraq invasion.

Which specific teachings of Jesus did GWB take to the extreme, including invading another nation?

I don't need to show you verses from the Bible that promote violence (although there is no doubt in my mind that I could find some); I don't desire to paint the Bible as a book that encourages violence. The point of my earlier post is that extremist are people who use their books in order to do things that don't necessarily reflect the purpose of the book.

And so George Bush is a good example.

Then, in post #16 you provided Revelation 19:11


Your "Makr" is the only thing that is obvious.

 

[Davies]

Stormcrow,

I have worked with a Muslim for over ten years with whom I have a good, working relationship with. It took me many years before I was able to share my faith with him, because he hates the Jews, and was very combative towards me even though I was not provoking him. It was only because I didnt hide my Christian faith. Being in the work place, you have to be sensitive to company policy which didn't make things any easier. There is one emotion that Muslims will avoid at all costs, and that is shame. I stepped on my Muslim co-workers pride big time by saying that God had given him everything he has including his job. He responded with red hot anger saying he earned everything he had. You take away his pride, then only thing he has left is shame, and they will deny it in your face even though it's plain for everyone to see. This all makes sense since the Muslim faith is a works-based religion, or a person is justified by what he does.

- Davies

 

[Nathan Alterton]

Does Islam even have someone like Mother Teresa that Muslims can use as an example of peaceful service and self-sacrifice, or do they have to keep borrowing Roman Catholicism's?

Just look at the founders of both faiths:

Jesus - Spent his public life speaking about the Kingdom of God, serving his disciples, reaching out to the poor and the outcast, calling corrupt authorities on the carpet, treated men and women who followed him equally, taught his followers to think of others ahead of themselves, and submissively went to a tortureous death on the cross.

Muhammad - Drafted the constitution of Medina, lead his followers in battle to aquire wealth, power, and prestige while seeking to conquer Mecca, sought to execute one of the three main Jewish tribes in Medina, had men who spoke against him killed, expelled Jewish tribes from Medina and claimed their property in the name of Islam, destroyed other local tribes who conspired against him by killing the men and enslaving the women and children. He also delivered his Farewell Sermon in which he pronounced the equal state of Arabs and non-Arabs, blacks and whites, spoke in favor of treating wives and other women kindly, though upholding their unequal status with men.

I'm not saying that Muhammad was all bad, he was certainly no worse than many military leaders throughout history, and some things he taught were very good. However, in contrasting the peaceable and gentle example of Jesus with that of Muhammad, there really is no comparison.

 

[jasoncran]

wikipedia? no thanks, i can if really wanted search for the facts via actuall official channels. i know where to go. and yeah the afghan goverment the same one that well kills christians that we put a stop to. the one so corrupt etc.

i once like karzai but now i dont. i dont trust him

and no. theres no orders of that nature saying that they did it aint going to cut it.

accidents yes but oh yeah heres some honorable deaths of muslims that often kill their own.

[video=youtube;Y4uJFQZ96eI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4uJFQZ96eI[/video]

looks a few muslims died in that one. im sure the ones next to it on the other side died,yup the enemy isnt real selective

the taliban didnt tell a village to the north called narangay to stop going to get aid from us.

they did indeed and shot three or four kids,

the enemy also shot one of us with thirty rounds in the head after killing him. if i do that i would be severly punished.

i can if i so choose make you all vomit with the jihad videos of live beheading. and also i want to know why you cant produce the us govt ordering the murder of civilians when the muslims defending their terroritory have attacked civilians that ARENT ENEMY COMBATANTS AND murdered them.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/23/1087845010202.html

i watched this man beg for his life2

may god have mercy on his soul of the men that murdered him.

 

[jasoncran]

If you showed me a link to a gay "Muslim" beating his 9 month old baby it would not surprise me. There are crazy people everywhere.

And Muslims are people just like everybody else.

that man didnt deny allah now did he, he instead wante peace and you did this.

ah i see the only good jew is a dead jew. yup peace loving indeed.

heed my warning well. when you kill the first american remember what you have done and become. the enemy of american and also a murderer.

hate will kill you quicker then any bullet.

 

[kidcanman]

that man didnt deny allah now did he, he instead wante peace and you did this.

ah i see the only good jew is a dead jew. yup peace loving indeed.

heed my warning well. when you kill the first american remember what you have done and become. the enemy of american and also a murderer.

hate will kill you quicker then any bullet.

Jasoncran, you obviously did not understand my point at all.

My point is that if there is a Muslim Israeli soldier, that does not surprise me. It is not news to me and it doesn't have an effect on my outlook of life.

 

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran, you obviously did not understand my point at all.

My point is that if there is a Muslim Israeli soldier, that does not surprise me. It is not news to me and it doesn't have an effect on my outlook of life.

and? thats it.yet he is there and sees it different and you should be JOYOUS.

IN THAT HE is one of them that isnt a terrorist nor hater of jews. he wants islam to be allowed and all to worship whatever god they can freely.

i did that to make your case and too show that i KNOW THAT NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE THE SAME. but hey dont let that interupt your thinking of us killing soldiers.

did you read what he said and does? NOPE.

 

[kidcanman]

Kid, I believe I've understood you throughout this thread. You aren't using this verse to say it truly calls Christians to violence. You are saying Christians can misuse this verse to justify violence toward another set of believers, right?

I believe this is very true, however I don't believe that the Bible is even remotely close to the Koran in its condoning of violence. In the Koran, there are many versus that are straight to the point, and I see the impact of it throughout the world. In Christianity, you have lunatics who bomb abortion clinics and defend it with scripture. These are isolated cases, usually carried out by singular people. In Islam, you have wide-spread violence in the name of Allah. You can't compare the actions of the U.S. government, which acts in defense of its country, to the actions of Muslims, who act in defense of their faith. These are vastly different.

You must first qualify what you mean by "condoning violence". The Quran does not have a single verse in which Allah instructs Muslims to be the agressor, or attack anybody. The OT has verses in which God instructs his chosen people to be the aggressor, attack, and kill.

You stated that the Bible is not even remotely close to the Quran in condoning violence. Well I think it is common knowledge that the OT condones a ton of violent acts. The Quran, on the other hand does not have a single verse in which the Muslim is instructed to be the agressor.

You stated that you have isolated cases of violence in Christianity. And Muslims have been attacking in mass.

I'm sorry but you have that completely backwards.

You will find Muslims responding to injustices by committing extreme attacks here and there.

But you tell me Mike. When was the last time a Muslim nation "attacked" a non-Muslim nation? I know you have to look it up.

According to news reports Bush stated that his invasion of Iraq was "a mission from God". That's not an isolated case. That is hundreds of thousands of soldiers attacking; on a mission from the God of the Bible.

What about Israel? Do you think it was atheist that decided to create a nation for Jews in the middle of an existing nation?

No. It was a decision inspired by the Bible.

Jewish and Christian senators and congressmen continue to support an aggressive handling to the situation in Palestine. There are some that are pushing for us to attack Iran.

Just because we have a "secular" constitution does not mean that what we do is not inspired by religion.

You can't compare the actions of the U.S. government, which acts in defense of its country, to the actions of Muslims, who act in defense of their faith.

Does it matter if you are defending your faith or your country as long as your are defending?

Your quote is almost correct. But it should read: "you cannot compare the acts of Muslims who act in defense of their faith, to the actions of the U.S. government (Under Bush) which attacked their country and their faith.

 

[Mike]

Kid, you are lending to the image many Americans have of Muslim Americans that they have disdain for the country that they live in, and that is unsettling enough. So, you hate your country on the basis that it is involved in a war on terrorism which was brought about specifically by Muslim zealots. No matter what W might have said, this war was engaged in by the U.S. government without the Bible leading it in. W's presidency (as with all aspects of his life) was influenced by his faith, but I don't believe for a moment that he did this first and foremost because of it.

Until 9/11, we were not at war as we know it. It wasn't until Muslims flew their planes into our buildings that this action was taken, so it was a military response; not a "Christian" one. Whether it was right or wrong to invade Iraq, the point is that it was a secular military response to an attack on American soil.

And that leads to the other half of this comparison. Allah is at the center of all this Muslim extremism, regardless of who they attack. They shout his name when they attack, they train up young suicide bombers who are deluded enough to think this horrible act of violence will send him to live with his virgins. I can't recall a major initiative taken by Muslims in which their Koran, their land, their religion wasn't a major contributing factor. Personally, I would never live in a country where I hated it along with the predominant religion of its culture.

 

[kidcanman]

Kid, you are lending to the image many Americans have of Muslim Americans that they have disdain for the country that they live in, and that is unsettling enough.

Those Americans have already been deceived when it comes to Muslims. It will not surprise me if they become more hate filled.

 

[kidcanman]

Until 9/11, we were not at war as we know it. It wasn't until Muslims flew their planes into our buildings that this action was taken

This statement is contrary to history. It is so contrary to history that I don't fully believe that you made it in all sincerity. And if you did, then go read about Chechnya, Kashmir, Afghan during the soviet occupation, Palestine. And just Middle Eastern history after world war two in general.

 

[Free]

I think the main point to be made--which has already been more or less made--is that Islam began with violence and was spread through violence, so being violent is consistent with the example set by Muhammad. Christianity on the other hand began with peace and initially spread through peaceful means, so being violent is contrary.

Anyone can take anything in the Bible and twist it to justify violence but when it comes down to it, Jesus never taught violence and violence is anti-Christ, anti-gospel.

 

[kidcanman]

I think the main point to be made--which has already been more or less made--is that Islam began with violence and was spread through violence, so being violent is consistent with the example set by Muhammad.

It is fine for you to make that point.

It's not true.

Christianity on the other hand began with peace and initially spread through peaceful means, so being violent is contrary.

"initially" means that later on it spread through violence.