Religious Extremism

[Stormcrow]

You will find Muslims responding to injustices by committing extreme attacks here and there.

LOL! I posted almost an entire page of links just within the last few months of Muslim on Christian violence throughout the world! So tell me, who suffered injustice in this case:

ISTANBUL, August 10 (CDN) — A Coptic Christian was killed and several others were injured in Upper Egypt after Muslims on Sunday (Aug. 7) attacked a predominantly Christian village following an argument between a Muslim and Christian.

The attack at Nazlet Faragallah village in Minya, 218 kilometers (136 miles) south of Cairo, lasted until Monday morning (Aug. 8), Christians said. The attackers raided an unknown number of homes owned by Christian villagers and set eight on fire, area residents said.

The assailants killed Maher Nassif, 46, a civil servant and livestock farmer, when he tried to defend his home. The men burst into Nassif’s house, shot him in the head and slit his throat while his teenage son watched from under a bed where he was hiding, Christian villagers said. The men looted the home and stole Nassif’s livestock as his son escaped into the night, according to villagers who spoke with the boy.

One villager, Melad Thabet, a 25-year-old teacher, said he spent the night of the attack listening to gunfire and the sound of people “weeping and screaming in the village.”

“Any [Christian-owned] house close to a Muslim house was looted and attacked,” Thabet told Compass. “And if someone had stood up to them, they would have killed them as they did with Maher.”

Or how about this one?

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, November 29 (CDN) — A Christian couple is facing false charges of theft after [Muslim] police in Abbottabad severely beat the pregnant woman and her husband for three days when they refused to confess, they told Compass.

Salma Emmanuel was taken to a hospital in critical condition on Nov. 7, the life of her unborn child also threatened, she said.

Then there's this one:

Ethnic Fulanis crying ‘Allahu akbar!’ attack church, communities.

BARKIN LADI, Nigeria, November 28 (CDN) — Fulani Muslim herdsmen along with Muslim soldiers have killed at least 45 ethnic Berom Christians in Plateau state in the past week, Christians in this northern-central Nigerian town said.

Smaller attacks beginning on Nov. 20, reportedly over allegations by Fulani Muslims of cattle theft, preceded an attack on a Barkin Ladi church on Nov. 23 that killed four Christians, and an assault the next day left 35 Christians dead in Barkin Ladi and nearby Kwok village, according to area Christian leaders.

And, of course, the grand daddy of them all:

(CBS/AP) KABUL, Afghanistan - Thousands of [Muslim] protesters angry over the burning of a Quran by a Florida pastor stormed a U.N. compound Friday in northern Afghanistan, killing at least 11 people, including seven foreigners.

A book - nothing more than some paper, ink, and glue - was burned in Florida and 11 innocent people died half a world away.

And both you and your "Holy book" condone this as an "injustice repaid."

Allah is a demon and Mohammed is nothing more than a dead murderer rotting in hell. The sooner you and "your people" get past your delusion (that Islam is a "religion of peace") and accept these truths, the better off the world will be.

Christ gave His own blood to pay for the world's sins. Islam demands the blood of its martyrs and innocents alike to appease its blood-thirsty "god."

 

[Drummer4Christ]

@kidcanman

9:1

[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.

9:2

So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

9:3

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

When Muhammad says "greater pilgrimage" , does he mean the hajj to the Kab'a?

If he does, did you know that the "polytheists" he refers to had been prostrating themselves around the black stone way before Muhammad showed up. These pagan Arabs did worship many gods however, the chief was a creator god called, you guessed it, Allah. Anyway, as I'm sure you know, Muhammed and his followers made several pilgrimages to Mecca, joining the "polytheists" in hurling rocks at a meteorite.

I'm not sure if at this point Muhammad and his followers out numbered the pagans, and took control of Mecca. Perhaps you can give an historical background?

9:4

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

What do you think Muhammed means by "treaty"? Peace treaty. Though, it seems more like a temporary ceasefire because once the treaty expires...

9:5

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

9:6

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9:7

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

9:8

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.

9:9

They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.

9:10

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

9:11

But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.

9:12

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.

9:13

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

9:14

Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people

9:15

And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

9:16

Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

Apparently, Muhammed gave the pagans an ultimatum of at least a year, considering these holy months are not consecutive. Once the time was up though, they got their jihad on.

What do you think Muhammad means by "repent" and "establish prayer"?
The first pillar of Islam:

"There is no god but Allah, and the messenger of Allah is Muhammad"

Even if Muslims are only acting "defensively" Allah says to only spare a pagans life as long as they surrender and, either pay a poll tax, or convert.

Many "extreme" Muslims who jihad against the western world, such as Osama Bin Laden, have offered a treaty to America & the West: reject their paganism, and admit that Allah is THE only god, and Muhammed is the ultimate prophet.

What do you think Allah means by "polytheist", anyway? In historical context, the pagan Arabs of course. In modern times, Christians. The Qur'an states in many places the "oneness" of Allah, how Allah does not share his greatness, and ESPECIALLY that Allah does not have a son, nor is he a father.

And we all know what Allah commands be done to disassociated polytheists!

 

[kidcanman]

I copied the translation from quran.com/9 in fact, they translate "Makr" as "planned" too.

Or are they an anti-Islamic website, as well?

Regardless of where you got the verses. When you present the actual translation, I will be glad to comment on it

 

[Mike]

This statement is contrary to history. It is so contrary to history that I don't fully believe that you made it in all sincerity. And if you did, then go read about Chechnya, Kashmir, Afghan during the soviet occupation, Palestine. And just Middle Eastern history after world war two in general.

Kid, I want to clarify that inn my last post, my first sentence was addressed specifically to you, but the remainder was meant to be general statements about Muslims who DO hate America yet live here. I should have said, "So THESE PEOPLE hate their country...". Sorry if it was taken that way.

I said we are not at war as we know it . We certainly stepped up our involvement after 9/11. This was a secular military response. It wasn't a response on behalf of God. These responses were executed in defense of a country; not of a faith.

 

[kidcanman]

Kid, I want to clarify that inn my last post, my first sentence was addressed specifically to you, but the remainder was meant to be general statements about Muslims who DO hate America yet live here. I should have said, "So THESE PEOPLE hate their country...". Sorry if it was taken that way.

Mike I can tell that the "heart" of your comments are not about maliciously attacking me or Islam, they are about making a point. I hold no malice or grudge. Don't worry, It takes allot for me to hold a grudge.

It's just a debate forum.

Any way I have a tournament to go to so I will respond to the second half of your post tonight.

 

[westtexas]

Regardless of where you got the verses. When you present the actual translation, I will be glad to comment on it

Kid, Drummer gave us quran.com- How about if you present a link you feel is more appropriate and he can comment on it. Quran.com would seem legitimate to me but I'd like to see what you feel is a correct translation, from a different link, and see Drummers response to you.

Westtexas

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm not even angry at stormcrow. It's just a debate forum.

As strange as this may sound, I am not angry at you personally, either. However, I abhor Islam given the violence that it engenders in those who adhere to its fundamentals.

I abhor Islam for the manner in which it justifies treating women and children like chattel: exploiting and abusing them.

I detest Islam for the way it justifies hatred of people, and seeks to do violence to those it hates.

Jesus taught that we would know a tree by the fruit it produces. Islam - with almost no exception - produces poison fruit.

I don't hate Muslims. I pity those trapped in it because of the controlling influence it has over entire communities and cultures. However, I have no love for those in it who do violence to others - especially innocents - in the name of this evil "religion."

It continues to amaze me that genuinely nice people - and I work with a few - remain faithful to a "religion" that offers so little except violence, poverty, and misery.

It really is no better than Marxism in this regard, and it's hatred for Jews makes it no better than Naziism. Why would you want to associate with such an evil ideology if you didn't share in at least some of its more radical views?

 

[Hitch]

As strange as this may sound, I am not angry at you personally, either. However, I abhor Islam given the violence that it engenders in those who adhere to its fundamentals.

I abhor Islam for the manner in which it justifies treating women and children like chattel: exploiting and abusing them.

I detest Islam for the way it justifies hatred of people, and seeks to do violence to those it hates.

Jesus taught that we would know a tree by the fruit it produces. Islam - with almost no exception - produces poison fruit.

I don't hate Muslims. I pity those trapped in it because of the controlling influence it has over entire communities and cultures. However, I have no love for those in it who do violence to others - especially innocents - in the name of this evil "religion."

It continues to amaze me that genuinely nice people - and I work with a few - remain faithful to a "religion" that offers so little except violence, poverty, and misery.

It really is no better than Marxism in this regard, and it's hatred for Jews makes it no better than Naziism. Why would you want to associate with such an evil ideology if you didn't share in at least some of its more radical views?

Well said.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Regardless of where you got the verses. When you present the actual translation, I will be glad to comment on it

The Sahih International Version, isn't an "actual" translation?

If you'd like, I can post the Arabic version, and you can translate it to ensure it's accuracy, since you'd be "glad to comment" once an actual translation is provided.

 

[Stormcrow]

Just a "head's up" folks...

Be careful about visiting Islamic websites. My firewall informed me that it had blocked a "malicious intrusion attempt" while I was doing research on one of these sites.

Taqiyya - it would seem - isn't the only thing we need to worry about when dealing with Islam.

 

[theLords]

Okay, enough insults and accusations, or infractions will be handed out.

 

[Free]

It is fine for you to make that point.

It's not true.

No, it is quite true. I suggest you do some research.

http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/ohod.html

http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/badr.html

That's not to mention Muhammad's raiding of caravans prior to all this, one of which lead directly to the battle at Badr. And then the violence continues, both by Muhammad and his successors.

"initially" means that later on it spread through violence.

Unlike supporters and followers of Islam, I will not deny that Christianity has violence in it's past. However, it must again be stated that Islam was initially spread through violence, both by it's founder and his successors, and continued to be spread through violence. Christianity was spread for the first 300 years by the blood of martyrs. And that is in keeping with Jesus', and the other NT writers', teachings.

That is a world of difference. That ought to tell one just what is consistent with each religion and what it's founder (let's say that Jesus founded Christianity for the sake of argument) would think of what was done in the name of each religion.

 

[kidcanman]

Kid, Drummer gave us quran.com- How about if you present a link you feel is more appropriate and he can comment on it. Quran.com would seem legitimate to me but I'd like to see what you feel is a correct translation, from a different link, and see Drummers response to you. Westtexas

It is not relevant what website he got it from. The translation he provided is incorrect.

It's not difficult to find a correct translation. How about you do the research and find it?

When someone presents a correct translation, I will comment on it.

I understand that there is plenty of wiggle room when it comes to translations; there is a large degree of subjectivity. And still I am confident that the translation that Drummer4christ provided is not correct.

Provide one of the many translations that are correct.

 

[kidcanman]

The Sahih International Version, isn't an "actual" translation?

If you'd like, I can post the Arabic version, and you can translate it to ensure it's accuracy, since you'd be "glad to comment" once an actual translation is provided.

Apparently The Sahih International Version is not correct.

There are many translations that are correct. Two that I am willing to comment on are Yusuf Ali (the most widely accepted English translation), and Pikthall. I will provide on of those translations when I have the time, and then I will comment on it.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Apparently The Sahih International Version is not correct.

There are many translations that are correct. Two that I am willing to comment on are Yusuf Ali (the most widely accepted English translation), and Pikthall. I will provide on of those translations when I have the time, and then I will comment on it.

Here, I'll post it for you. This is the Yusuf Ali translation from harunyahya.com

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

9. The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

11. But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

15. And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

16. Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well- acquainted with (all) that ye do.

17. It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

18. The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong.

20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah.s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:

22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in Allah.s presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

 

[Stormcrow]

Apparently The Sahih International Version is not correct.

"King James only" man, I see. :toofunny

 

[kidcanman]

I said we are not at war as we know it . We certainly stepped up our involvement after 9/11. This was a secular military response. It wasn't a response on behalf of God. These responses were executed in defense of a country; not of a faith.

"as we know it" means as Mike knows it. Mike just because you were clueless about the injustices inflicted upon Middle East nations before 9/11 does not mean that they did not happen. And as a matter of fact they did happen, and that's why we got attacked on 9/11, not for religious purposes, but as a response to past aggression.

Bush said that his actions were a "mission from God". I know that our soldiers did not know that he felt that way, but our soldiers are not the person that made the decision to unjustly attack and kill an innocent people. The person that represents our Country, the leader of our country, (a Christian American) stated (according to news reports) that his decision to attack a country that did not make any moves to attack America was a , "mission from God".

If any American Muslim killed anybody and said it was a "mission from God", would you say that he acted for secular reasons? Of course you would not. And so religion played a key part in the U.S. attacking Iraq unjustly.

And regardless of whether our actions were secular or religious, we did not act in defense so stop making that claim.

 

[kidcanman]

No, it is quite true. I suggest you do some research.

http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/ohod.html

http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/badr.html

That's not to mention Muhammad's raiding of caravans prior to all this, one of which lead directly to the battle at Badr. And then the violence continues, both by Muhammad and his successors.

It's not true. I don't need to do research about a topic that I already know about. I'm not going to sort through the long article in your link in order to find out if the sources are legitimate.

Why don't you present a short example on this board, and then cite the book that it came out of?

Unlike supporters and followers of Islam, I will not deny that Christianity has violence in it's past. However, it must again be stated that Islam was initially spread through violence, both by it's founder and his successors, and continued to be spread through violence.

again, that's not true, provide an example.

Christianity was spread for the first 300 years by the blood of martyrs. And that is in keeping with Jesus', and the other NT writers', teachings.

That is a world of difference. That ought to tell one just what is consistent with each religion and what it's founder (let's say that Jesus founded Christianity for the sake of argument) would think of what was done in the name of each religion.

I don't wish to debate the history of Christianity but I question your account of the first 300 years. I will however grant it to you that that account is accurate for the sake of the argument as well.

The things that you think are consistent with Islam, and the things that you think are done in the name of Islam are to a large extent not true. I know that my claims are no more than that, "claims", but I am simply responding "claim for claim".

 

[jasoncran]

"as we know it" means as Mike knows it. Mike just because you were clueless about the injustices inflicted upon Middle East nations before 9/11 does not mean that they did not happen. And as a matter of fact they did happen, and that's why we got attacked on 9/11, not for religious purposes, but as a response to past aggression.

Bush said that his actions were a "mission from God". I know that our soldiers did not know that he felt that way, but our soldiers are not the person that made the decision to unjustly attack and kill an innocent people. The person that represents our Country, the leader of our country, (a Christian American) stated (according to news reports) that his decision to attack a country that did not make any moves to attack America was a , "mission from God".

If any American Muslim killed anybody and said it was a "mission from God", would you say that he acted for secular reasons? Of course you would not. And so religion played a key part in the U.S. attacking Iraq unjustly.

And regardless of whether our actions were secular or religious, we did not act in defense so stop making that claim.

defense? so the taliban didnt harbor bin laden?

and uh i know american muslims and have served with them.

one i know quite well and that was back in the 90's.

the other one i met at pldc and he went overseas and did two tours in iraq.

can you confirm that hussein wasnt any threat to us?

do have cleareances that i am not aware of?

i doubt it. if you did you wouldnt be that way.

 

[Stormcrow]

I don't need to do research about a topic that I already know about.

In other words, "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up."

Why don't you present a short example on this board, and then cite the book that it came out of?

Many have offered evidence to refute your claims. You refuse to accept it.

Why do I get the impression that no amount of evidence will persuade you?

109:1 Say : O ye that reject Faith!
109:2 I worship not that which ye worship,
109:3 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109:4 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
109:5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109:6 To you be your Way, and to me mine.

If this sums up your position, why not just say so instead of repeatedly demanding evidence with which you will always and only find fault?