Repentance is essential for salvation!

[Alabaster]

That explains first century Jerusalem...

It explains the Church age.

 

[Hitch]

It explains the Church age.

That it does, since the Destruction came long after Acts 2 LOL.


Side issue;

I wonder if most folks here know that the socalled 'church age' is used to teach that the Lord's Prayer is legalistic and has no place in the church?

 

[Alabaster]

That it does, since the Destruction came long after Acts 2 LOL.


Side issue;

I wonder if most folks here know that the socalled 'church age' is used to teach that the Lord's Prayer is legalistic and has no place in the church?

:o Maybe if you had a job or something?

 

[Hitch]

:o Maybe if you had a job or something?

Allie you cant count on always having folks around who dont know much about dispensationalism.

Come on , you knew the destruction happened 'in the church age' .

 

[Hitch]

That it does, since the Destruction came long after Acts 2 LOL.


Side issue;

I wonder if most folks here know that the socalled 'church age' is used to teach that the Lord's Prayer is legalistic and has no place in the church?

As Im the new guy its right of you to expect I support my posts, so no one thinks I' ve over stepped;

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?114


Oswald T. Allis

The divisive tendency inherent in Dispensationalism appears clearly in the definition of a" dispensation "as given, for example, in the widely used Scofield Bible:
"A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture." (3)
Dispensationalists differ as to the number and extent of these dispensations. The seven recognized in the Scofield Bible are Innocency, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, Kingdom. And since during each dispensation man is tested in respect of some special revelation of the will of God", the tendency is to confine to or concentrate each of these specific features in its own proper period, and to set each period definitely and distinctly over against and even at odds with the others. This leads to strained exegesis and strong-arm methods of inclusion and exclusion which are dangerous in the extreme. For the purpose of the present discussion we shall confine ourselves to the last three of the dispensations : Law, Grace, Kingdom.
One of the best known and at the same time most characteristic illustrations of the dispensational method and the dangers that beset it is the Lord's Prayer. There are thousands of Christians today who do not use this prayer: there are many ministers who have eliminated it from the accustomed order of worship in their churches. Why is this ? The reason is briefly stated in the comment which is found in the margin of the Scofield Bible on the Fifth Petition, "and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors":
"This is legal ground. Cf. Eph. iv. 32, which is grace. Under law forgiveness is conditioned upon a like spirit in us ; under grace we are forgiven for Christ's sake, and exhorted to forgive because we have been forgiven. See Matt. xviii. 32 xxvi. 28, note." (4)
"This is legal ground" is the indictment brought by Dispensationalism against this petition. Law, of course, belongs to the Dispensation of Law. We are today in the Church age, the Dispensation of Grace. Therefore this petition and by inference the whole prayer is legal and not for the Christian. Dr. Haldeman puts it bluntly when he says ". . . . it does not belong to the Church, it is not for the Christian at all ". He calls it "a prayer that has no more place in the Christian church than the thunders of Sinai, or the offerings of Leviticus "(5)
It should hardly be necessary to call attention to the radical way in which Dispensationalism thus cuts itself off from historical Protestantism.
Schaff in a brief comparison of "the typical Catechisms of Protestantism,"
- Luther's (1529), the Heidelberg (1563), the Anglican (1549), and the Westminster Shorter Catechism (1647) - says of them all: "They are essentially agreed in the fundamental doctrines of catholic and evangelical religion. They teach the articles of the Apostles' Creed, the Ten Commandments, and the Lord's Prayer; that is, all that is necessary for a man to believe and to do in order to be saved. They thus exhibit the harmony of the chief branches of orthodox Protestant Christendom." (6)
Three elements common to all - the Apostles' Creed, the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer ! (7). Yet many Dispensationalists refuse to recite the Lord's Prayer, mainly because the Fifth Petition is legal ground; and of course the inclusion of the Ten commandments in these catechisms makes them doubly offensive to the thoroughgoing Dispensationalist. For what could be more legal than the Decalogue

Emphasis added.


In fairness I reckon many even most folks who still hold to the DF distinction they call the 'church age' no longer abide by this nonsense. But realisticly, one must take the good with the bad, this same logic is applied to seperate the 'church age' as to the ' Lord's Prayer' . It is not a grammatical error it is systematic.

 

[Alabaster]

Allie you cant count on always having folks around who dont know much about dispensationalism.

Come on , you knew the destruction happened 'in the church age' .

Pray tell, what destruction are you talking about? Certainly not the destruction that is to occur during Tribulation?

 

[farouk]

Alabaster:

In the NT there is a clear distinction between the idea of tribulation and the Great Tribulation as a future event.

If this isn't recognized, then ppl are likely to get into all sorts of hermeneutic problems.

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster:

In the NT there is a clear distinction between the idea of tribulation and the Great Tribulation as a future event.

If this isn't recognized, then ppl are likely to get into all sorts of hermeneutic problems.

Don't I know it!

We are all promised tribulation in life, but I suppose it is a sort of badge of honour for some believers to think that God has set aside a number of believers to undergo the epitome of tribulation---more than anyone else who has ever lived. I have had many debates with so-called believers who have set their cap to be among the 144,000!

Not.

 

[reba]

.... then ppl are likely to get into all sorts of hermeneutic problems.

NO! Tell me it ain't so!

 

[Hitch]

Pray tell, what destruction are you talking about? Certainly not the destruction that is to occur during Tribulation?

The destruction prophecied GASP before the chrurch age by a man GASP who never lived in the church age,

You are aware first century Jerusalem was destroyed and the city and temple pillaged and burned yes?

Just as though God didnt even understand that the dispensation had changed,,, amazing.

Originally Posted by Alabaster
God in the Old Testament never held back His judgments, but in the New Covenant, He does, preferring to pour out of His great reserves of mercy and restraint because of His Son, Jesus the Messiah who has come, who is busy redeeming mankind from their sins and building His glorious Church.

Severe punishment is reserved for the Great White Throne for sinners...praise God!

Fails the history test Allie.

 

[Alabaster]

The destruction prophecied GASP before the chrurch age by a man GASP who never lived in the church age,

You are aware first century Jerusalem was destroyed and the city and temple pillaged and burned yes?

Just as though God didnt even understand that the dispensation had changed,,, amazing.

Fails the history test Allie.

I don't know what the heck GASP is, so let's move on...or do you want to use my inhaler?

The destruction of Jerusalem was part of the dual prophecy Jesus made as recorded on Matthew 24.

 

[Hitch]

I don't know what the heck GASP is, so let's move on.

The destruction of Jerusalem was part of the dual prophecy Jesus made as recorded on Matthew 24.

So when you posted ;

Originally Posted by Alabaster
God in the Old Testament never held back His judgments, but in the New Covenant, He does, preferring to pour out of His great reserves of mercy and restraint because of His Son, Jesus the Messiah who has come, who is busy redeeming mankind from their sins and building His glorious Church.

Severe punishment is reserved for the Great White Throne for sinners...praise God!

Whatever did you mean?

I reckon its a subjective but the destruction of a whole country, I would call that severe. But you say that doesnt happen in the New Covenant, and Im not a dispesnationalst but Im pretty sure they start the 'church age' well before ad 70.

 

[glorydaz]

God in the Old Testament never held back His judgments, but in the New Covenant, He does, preferring to pour out of His great reserves of mercy and restraint because of His Son, Jesus the Messiah who has come, who is busy redeeming mankind from their sins and building His glorious Church.

Severe punishment is reserved for the Great White Throne for sinners...praise God!

I agree, Alibaster. Punishment, in the strict sense of the word implies GUILT. Believers have been washed in the blood of the Lamb...all our guilt, for all our sins, was taken by Christ on the cross. Chastisement is meted out to God's children for our growth and to bring us back into fellowship with Him.

 

[Alabaster]

So when you posted ;

Whatever did you mean?

I reckon its a subjective but the destruction of a whole country, I would call that severe. But you say that doesnt happen in the New Covenant, and Im not a dispesnationalst but Im pretty sure they start the 'church age' well before ad 70.

Ahhh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem!

 

[Hitch]

Ahhh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem!

Originally Posted by Alabaster
God in the Old Testament never held back His judgments, but in the New Covenant, He does, preferring to pour out of His great reserves of mercy and restraint because of His Son, Jesus the Messiah who has come, who is busy redeeming mankind from their sins and building His glorious Church.

Severe punishment is reserved for the Great White Throne for sinners...praise God!

I see you're undecided.

 

[Alabaster]

I see you're undecided.

Not at all.

God fulfilled His plan for Jerusalem for that time. He prophesied it and fulfilled it. It was a separate prophecy within the larger prophecy for the Church.

People tend to make a mess out of things by making them complicated.

 

[Hitch]

Not at all.

God fulfilled His plan for Jerusalem for that time. He prophesied it and fulfilled it. It was a separate prophecy within the larger prophecy for the Church.

People tend to make a mess out of things by making them complicated.

Well Allie it was you said that sort of thing didnt happen in the church age.

Originally Posted by Alabaster
God in the Old Testament never held back His judgments, but in the New Covenant, He does, preferring to pour out of His great reserves of mercy and restraint because of His Son, Jesus the Messiah who has come, who is busy redeeming mankind from their sins and building His glorious Church.

Severe punishment is reserved for the Great White Throne for sinners...praise God!

 

[Scotth1960]

Repent: i.e. turn from your sin's. being sincere in you willingness to forsake all that displease's God.

A. Isa 55:6-7 6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. (NKJ)

A. Isa 1:16-18 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; seek justice, rebuke the oppressor; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 "Come now, and let us reason together," says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (NKJ) Note that repentance come's before forgiveness.

In Acts 8 Simon sinned. What was Peter's remedy?

1. Told Simon his sin (v.20-21)
2. Told Simon to "repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart MAY be forgiven you.(V.22)
3. Peter end's by stating root sin's that separated Simon from God. (i.e. bitterness and iniquity v.23)

Jesus came to call people to repentance:

Mt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (NKJ)
Mk 2:17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (NKJ)

Lk 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (NKJ)

Lk 24:46-47 46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (NKJ)

Acts 3:26 "To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities." (NKJ)
The 1st word's Jesus preached after His 40 day fast and temptation was "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand". (Mt 4:17,Mk 1:15)

The apostles called people to repentance:

Acts 2:38-39 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." (NKJ)

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (NKJ) (Note: repentance is essential for forgiveness!)
Acts 5:31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. (NKJ)

(note: repentance first; than forgiveness of sins.)

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." (NKJ)

Acts 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, (NKJ)

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (NKJ)

Here we see that repentance is commanded by God! Thus it is not optional!
Acts 20:21 "testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJ)

Acts 26:17-18 17 `I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 `to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' (NKJ)

Acts 26:20 "but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (NKJ)

II Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (NKJ)

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, (NKJ)

This passage make's it clear that repentance is:

1. An elementary principle of Christ.

2. A part of the foundation of the faith. (i.e. salvation)

So when we read all other scripture's that deal with salvation, (i.e. Rom 10:9-11, Eph 2:8-10, I Cor 15:1-11, Lk 18:13, etc.) we must understand that repentance, as a necessary step of salvation, is already understood by the people who received those writing's. (I.e. the Roman's, Ephesians, Corinthian's, etc.) They understood that repentance is a standard part of the gospel that the apostle's taught. Therefore it was a standard part of the gospel that they taught other's. Therefore it was not necessary for the apostle's to repeat in their epistle's these fundamental truth's. For it was clearly taught to them when Paul, Peter, and other's 1st founded the church’s in those region's. And it is essential that we come to understand these truth's as well!

(cont)

Friends, YES. Repentance and water baptism baptism in water and the Spirit (John 3:3,5). In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

If a person is never baptized, yet repents of sin, he is still saved.

 

[theophilus3213]

Alabaster,

Like you say, it's a commanded symbol for those who have turned to God through Christ for cleansing, from sin and unbelief.

It's not the cleansing of sin itself.

Have you considered these scriptures?

Rom 6:1-7
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. KJV

Col 2:12
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. kJV

1 Peter 3:21-22
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. RSV

Shaloam