Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[savedbygrace57]

eb

This does not mean the Christian is perfectly sinless but it does mean the
Christian cannot live a sinful lifestyle. The Christian is to strive not to
sin.

It means the one born of God is without sin and cannot sin. 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The one born of God is born out of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

In times past the Ephesians lived a lifestyle of sinning, they 'walked according to the course of this worls" and they "had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh" BUT, a contrasting word, when they became Christians they became 'dead to sin' having been quickened together with Christ.


In the case of both the Corinthians and Ephesians Paul makes a clear contrast from the previous lifestyle in sinning and now being a Christian dead to sin.

Any and all sin is committed by the flesh (the old man)

The new man does not and cannot sin.
The new man is spiritual, the new man is heavenly, the new man is Christ in you.

God does not improve the old man. He does not give the old man a second chance to do better.
God condemns sin in the old man, and He puts him to death. Therefor you have been crucified with Christ.

All those sins that you stated from what Paul wrote, they are not the problem. They are merely the ‘fruit’ of the flesh. It is the flesh that is the main problem. The flesh must die (the cross) in order to stop the fruit of the flesh.

Satan would have you overly occupied with the fruit, and how you ought to deal with the fruit. He would have you try and improve the fruit or to continually try and eradicate the fruit.
He even convinces some that if they can eradicate this bad fruit, then they will be spiritually mature Christians, who have reached some sinless perfection, when what he has really achieved is for the Christian to have strengthened the resolve on will power of old man (flesh)

We don’t eradicate sin to become more spiritual. We become (grow) more spiritual to put to death the flesh.
Paul said ‘I die daily’

It is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord.

The flesh remains for one purpose and that is to be a vessel of the Life of Christ in you.
It is as a branch to bare the fruit of the Life of Christ in you.

Not according to the bible. Is it "impossible for someone who has truly believed" just because eternal securists say so?

Well yes!
Since Jesus is an eternal securest, and He Himself said:

Luke 8:15 But those on the good ground are the ones who, in an honest and good heart, having heard the Word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience.

Huh? And you accused me of adding my opinion to what Jesus said?

Where in the context did Jesus say "I force sheep to hear and follow me against their will and I will never allow them to stop hearing and following Me even if they want to"? The context does not say the sheep have no volition. If they had no volition it would be impossible for sheep to stray away, but they do, Isa 53:6 Matt 18:12 2 Pet 2:15

When Jesus said MY sheep hear and MY sheep follow Jesus made being a sheep of his conditional upon your hearing and follwoing Him. Therefore you would not qualify to be a sheep of Christ's if you do not conditonally hear and follow Him.

It is not conditional, it is what we do.

Jesus said He who has been forgiven much, loves much. That is not conditional, it is the Christian life.

And where did I mention anything about force?

But truth is that if or when we do wander or stray away, He will bring us back to the fold, even if it is with His rod, for He will not lose any of His.

Many followed Him for a while, but that did not make them His sheep.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Not according to the bible. Is it "impossible for someone who has truly believed" just because eternal securists say so?

Tell us something Ernest.

When you came to Christ, did you at some point believe deep within your own heart that you were a sinner?
Or was it simply because someone pointed out and convinced you that you must be a sinner because x y z?

Can you now ever with your volition, choose not to truly believe that were/are a sinner?
Could anyone come along and with clever persuasion, convince you that you are not or were not a sinner?
If say, you dumped Christianity, would you then somehow not believe that you were/are a sinner?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The one born of God #1 Sinneth not and Keepeth himself 1 Jn 5:18

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This sinneth not includes apostasy, falling away from the Faith, the born of God ones cannot committ that sin because of the inward plantation of the Truth by New Birth.

He keepeth Himself because God is keeping Him, which causes him to contend for the Faith,and not foresake it !. The key here is that John is speaking only of those who have been born of God !

The wicked one toucheth him not, not with all his cunning false doctrines !

 

[heymikey80]

There is nothing written anywhere that says one who believes cannot quit believing. What you posted here is your personal philosophy about faith for you can never show me from the bible that it is impossible for one who believes to quit believing. The old "wasn't saved to begin with" is an inadequate excuse given to get around the problem of salvation being conditional.

Jesus Himself says they will not.

Nobody's said people cannot stop believing. Jesus says the one on good soil will not.

" these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience." -- Jesus Luke 8:13-15

John says the one born of God doesn't continue sinning, and the evil one does not touch him.

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Who does John think have been born of God?

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God 1 John 5:1

So the sequence is pretty apparent -- whoever believes isn't touched by the evil one.

 

[ForumAddict]

1. "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish." John 10:28.

• This is an unconditional guarantee.
• Eternal life means saved for eternity.
• What does "never perish" mean?

2. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6.

• Christ will perform His work in us to the Second Coming.

3. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD... Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand ... The LORD .. forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever." Psalms 37:23-28.

• Four times God tells us that He keeps us saved.

4. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38, 39.

• For a born again believer to be lost, he must somehow be separated from the love of God, and become an object of God's wrath. Paul says that this is impossible.

5. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25. "to the uttermost" means "forever."

6. "By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:12.

• Redemption means to buy back by paying a price. Since we have an eternal redemption, we are redeemed for all eternity.

7. "... receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15.

• Our inheritance is for eternity.
• Our eternal inheritance is promised by God.

8. "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." 1 Corinthians 15:49.

• "Shall" means that it is a certainty that we will bear the heavenly image.

9. "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:4, 5.

• Six times God tells us that we are secure forever.
• "Fadeth not away" means perpetual.

10. "I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12.

• Paul had committed the keeping of his soul to Christ. He was sure that Christ would keep him saved to his heavenly kingdom.

11. "The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom..." 2 Timothy 4:18.

• The Lord will deliver us and preserve us.

12. "Who shall also confirm you unto the END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful ..." 1 Corinthians 1:8, 9.

13. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:4.

• Ye shall appear with Christ in glory, no if's or but's.

14. "This is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." 1 John 2:25.

"In hope of eternal life which God, that cannot lie, promised.." Titus 1:2.

• God has promised eternal life to us, and He cannot lie.

15. "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

• If we come to Jesus Christ for salvation, He will not cast us out of salvation.

16. "If our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Cor 5:1.

• We know that if our body dies, we go to heaven for eternity.

​

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

eb



It means the one born of God is without sin and cannot sin. 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The one born of God is born out of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

It does not mean the Christian is perfectly sinless for if it did then John contradicts himself in 1 Jn 1:8

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Any and all sin is committed by the flesh (the old man)

The new man does not and cannot sin.
The new man is spiritual, the new man is heavenly, the new man is Christ in you.

God does not improve the old man. He does not give the old man a second chance to do better.
God condemns sin in the old man, and He puts him to death. Therefor you have been crucified with Christ.

All those sins that you stated from what Paul wrote, they are not the problem. They are merely the ‘fruit’ of the flesh. It is the flesh that is the main problem. The flesh must die (the cross) in order to stop the fruit of the flesh.

Satan would have you overly occupied with the fruit, and how you ought to deal with the fruit. He would have you try and improve the fruit or to continually try and eradicate the fruit.
He even convinces some that if they can eradicate this bad fruit, then they will be spiritually mature Christians, who have reached some sinless perfection, when what he has really achieved is for the Christian to have strengthened the resolve on will power of old man (flesh)

We don’t eradicate sin to become more spiritual. We become (grow) more spiritual to put to death the flesh.
Paul said ‘I die daily’

It is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord.

The flesh remains for one purpose and that is to be a vessel of the Life of Christ in you.
It is as a branch to bare the fruit of the Life of Christ in you.

1 Jn 1:8 means that Christians do sin. So 1 Jn 3:9 does not mean a Christian is perfectly sinless but means the Christian cannot continue to live in sin as a lost sinner would.

Well yes!
Since Jesus is an eternal securest, and He Himself said:

Luke 8:15 But those on the good ground are the ones who, in an honest and good heart, having heard the Word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience.

WEll no for it must be from the bible and the bible does not say it is impossible for one who believe to quit believing but says just the opposite that one can turn from that faith.

It is not conditional, it is what we do.

Jesus said He who has been forgiven much, loves much. That is not conditional, it is the Christian life.

And where did I mention anything about force?

But truth is that if or when we do wander or stray away, He will bring us back to the fold, even if it is with His rod, for He will not lose any of His.

Many followed Him for a while, but that did not make them His sheep.

If savlation is not a choice one makes of his own will then salvation would be forced upon him whether he wants to be saved or not.
Jn 10:27 does not say one is forced to hear and follow Christ, one hears and follows of his own volition and therefore one can quit hearing and following of his own voilition.

So does one hear and follow by choice or by force?


And there is no verse that says lost sheep are guaranted to be found.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

1. "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish." John 10:28.

• This is an unconditional guarantee.
• Eternal life means saved for eternity.
• What does "never perish" mean?

2. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6.

• Christ will perform His work in us to the Second Coming.

3. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD... Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand ... The LORD .. forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever." Psalms 37:23-28.

• Four times God tells us that He keeps us saved.

4. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38, 39.

• For a born again believer to be lost, he must somehow be separated from the love of God, and become an object of God's wrath. Paul says that this is impossible.

5. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25. "to the uttermost" means "forever."

6. "By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:12.

• Redemption means to buy back by paying a price. Since we have an eternal redemption, we are redeemed for all eternity.

7. "... receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15.

• Our inheritance is for eternity.
• Our eternal inheritance is promised by God.

8. "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." 1 Corinthians 15:49.

• "Shall" means that it is a certainty that we will bear the heavenly image.

9. "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:4, 5.

• Six times God tells us that we are secure forever.
• "Fadeth not away" means perpetual.

10. "I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12.

• Paul had committed the keeping of his soul to Christ. He was sure that Christ would keep him saved to his heavenly kingdom.

11. "The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom..." 2 Timothy 4:18.

• The Lord will deliver us and preserve us.

12. "Who shall also confirm you unto the END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful ..." 1 Corinthians 1:8, 9.

13. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:4.

• Ye shall appear with Christ in glory, no if's or but's.

14. "This is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." 1 John 2:25.

"In hope of eternal life which God, that cannot lie, promised.." Titus 1:2.

• God has promised eternal life to us, and He cannot lie.

15. "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

• If we come to Jesus Christ for salvation, He will not cast us out of salvation.

16. "If our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Cor 5:1.

• We know that if our body dies, we go to heaven for eternity.

John 10:27 goes with verse 28 for God does not randomly, unconditionally choose to hold certain people in his hand. The ones God holds are the ones that are Christ's sheep in v27. Jesus said the qualification to be His sheep is a continuous hearing and continous following. Not just a one time or sporadic hearing and following. So if one quits hearing and following he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep and he removes himself from God's hand. Nowhere did God ever promise to save those that become unfaithful, unrighteous, disobedient. God promised to have vengeance upon those that obey not, 2 Thess 1:8 and save those that obey, Heb 5:9 and God cannot lie so He will keep His promises. Eternal security would have God breaking his promises by continuing to hold those in his hand that have quit hearing and following Christ, that is, save those that have become disobedient by having quit hearing and following Christ.

 

[heymikey80]

John 10:27 goes with verse 28 for God does not randomly, unconditionally choose to hold certain people in his hand.

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

 

[farouk]

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

heymickey80:

Yes, this is a good verse to remember, reminding us that there is a balance to the truths of divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

Blessings.

 

[Butch5]

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

Those men were not cast out, however, one did leave.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It does not mean the Christian is perfectly sinless for if it did then John contradicts himself in 1 Jn 1:8

The born again one is perfectly sinless, He cannot sin because he is born of God. 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The born again one is not born out of adam !

 

[Butch5]

The born again one is perfectly sinless, He cannot sin because he is born of God. 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The born again one is not born out of adam !

Are you saying that a Christian never sins? Are you saying John said a Christian never sins? If that is what he was saying then why did he say this also?

KJV 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1Jo 2:1 KJV)

Have you considered that the word "cannot" doesn't necessarily mean physical ability? When you were kid and your friend asked you to come out and play and you asked your mother and she said no, wasn't your reply to him, I cannot, or I can't? That didn't mean you were physically incapable of going out to play but rather that you didn't have permission. Likewise the Christian doesn't have permission to sin either.

 

[savedbygrace57]

butch

Are you saying that a Christian never sins?

The born again one does not sin 1 Jn 3:9

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you saying that He that is born of God can sin ?

 

[Butch5]

butch



The born again one does not sin 1 Jn 3:9

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you saying that He that is born of God can sin ?

I can assume then that you never sin?

I am saying the born of God does sin, just as John indicates. What you've stated cannot be reconciled with the Scriptures.

 

[savedbygrace57]

butch

I can assume then that you never sin?

I sin everyday and all day,yet not I,but sin that dwelleth in me ! Rom 7:20

20 Now if I do that I would not [which is sin], it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I am saying the born of God does sin

Thats because you do not believe God's Word 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

The verb "cometh" is present tense, middle voice. The present tense denotes an ongoing, sustained coming and not just a one time or sporadic coming to Christ. So those that quit coming can be cast out. The middle voice shows one comes to Christ of his own will.

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. "

This verse explains how God draws men and it is not randomly or unconditonally but men are drawn when they are taught, heard and learn of God. God draws by His word the bible. Then upon being taught, hearing and learning then men come unto Christ....God draws, men come. Again, as in verse 37 the verb cometh in this verse is present tense, middle voice.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The born again one is perfectly sinless, He cannot sin because he is born of God. 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The born again one is not born out of adam !

1 Jn 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."


First, 'cannot' does not mean 'impossible' for Christians do sin, 1 Jn 1:8. The law of the road may say you cannot run a red light, but that does not mean it is impossible for you to run a red light.

Also the verbs "doth" and "cannot sin" are in the Greek present tense. Meaning the Christian cannot continue and ongoingly live in sin as a lost sinner does. Eph 2:2-3 sinners are the ones that "walked according to the course of this world" and "had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind". So the Christian CANNOT continue to walk in sin, his conversaton or way of life CANNOT be living continuously in sin.

Everyone is a desendant of Adam.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

First, 'cannot' does not mean 'impossible' for Christians do sin

Yes it does. The word cannot in the greek is made up of two words :

ou = no, not; and dynamai =to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

2) to be able to do something

3) to be capable, strong and powerful

And because ou is the negative, it means not able, not capable to do something.

The one born of God does not have the ability to sin !

The law of the road may say you cannot run a red light, but that does not mean
it is impossible for you to run a red light.

Thats not the same, for one has the capabiblty to disobey what is forbidden. The one who is born of God does not have the abiblity to sin ! Its like, one cannot run a red light if they do not have a car in the first place to be able to do it !

Also the verbs "doth" and "cannot sin" are in the Greek present
tense. Meaning the Christian cannot continue and ongoingly live in sin as a lost
sinner does.

One born of God cannot sin period.

Everyone is a desendant of Adam.

Thats being born of the Flesh, that is not one born of God.

The one born of God is born out of an incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Mans birth out of adam is out of corruptible seed, a different birth altogether, sorry ! The one born out of Incorruptible Seed is not a descendant of Adam !