Repetition in prayer

[thessalonian]

Well since I actually know Klee Shey in real life I happen to understand where she is coming from. She is coming from the position of not being in judgements of people's hearts. The Mormon's doctrine may be wrong but an individual mormon? Who knows!

So are you from a position that does not judge people's hearts? I.e. that those who bow down before someone are worshipping that someone?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I know what I see, but I don't know what's in their heart (thus knowing their intent) - therefore I cannot judge if they are going to heaven or hell. Personally I tend to err on the positive side and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Let's put it to you this way, Thess, my whole family still attend the cult I ran away from. I believe they do because they have been brainwashed and haven't yet realised that they are being preached false doctrine. I don't judge their hearts either...because I've been where they are. I can, however, say that what they are taught is FALSE (If I didn't think it false then I'd still be a part of that church) but I will NEVER say that they are going to hell. It's not my place to

 

[thessalonian]

I know what I see, but I don't know what's in their heart (thus knowing their intent) - therefore I cannot judge if they are going to heaven or hell. Personally I tend to err on the positive side and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Let's put it to you this way, Thess, my whole family still attend the cult I ran away from. I believe they do because they have been brainwashed and haven't yet realised that they are being preached false doctrine. I don't judge their hearts either...because I've been where they are. I can, however, say that what they are taught is FALSE (If I didn't think it false then I'd still be a part of that church) but I will NEVER say that they are going to hell. It's not my place to

Can't remember if I posted it here or on another thread but is bowing down ALWAYS worship. Is it sometimes virtuous to bow down before something other than God. I gave some examples. Solomon before Bethsheba, the elders before the Ark of the Covenant, Issac said that nations would bow down before Jacob. This is not a matter of just hearts. I think it is clear from scripture that bowing down is proper in some circumstances.

Blessings

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I think that when somebody exalts somebody else as much as I see some people doing...erecting statues and bowing to them and honoring the statues I believe that is worship.

However...

One can be accused of worshipping anything, money, family, position, material possessions etc etc. I believe that when one puts ANYTHING before God that it is classed as worship. Therefore we can all be guilty of it from time to time - I know I am ;) Thankfully, it's never ever too long.

But yes, if I was to honor mary the way that some people do, I would consider myself worshipping her when I should be worshipping God.

But again, if you DON'T think that's what you're doing then great! You only have to answer to God - not anyone else but your God. What everyone else thinks is none of your concern.

 

[Orthodoxy]

I think that when somebody exalts somebody else as much as I see some people doing...erecting statues and bowing to them and honoring the statues I believe that is worship.

However...

One can be accused of worshipping anything, money, family, position, material possessions etc etc. I believe that when one puts ANYTHING before God that it is classed as worship. Therefore we can all be guilty of it from time to time - I know I am ;) Thankfully, it's never ever too long.

But yes, if I was to honor mary the way that some people do, I would consider myself worshipping her when I should be worshipping God.

But again, if you DON'T think that's what you're doing then great! You only have to answer to God - not anyone else but your God. What everyone else thinks is none of your concern.

Then you know where to stick your silly condemnations of us "swine" dont ya all holy saint of God?

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Excuse me??

Is that called for? I will not tolerate another word from you, Orthodoxy, I find you obnoxious and rude and very mean!!! If you speak to me in this manner again I will report you!!!

Please refrain from speaking to me in this manner again!

 

[Urambo Tauro]

Sorry for interrupting...

I agree that "vain" is a key word in the phrase, "vain repetition".
I imagine there is some repetition that is acceptable, and some that is not. The use of "holy, holy, holy" appears to be acceptable even though it is repeated.
I think it all comes down to "say what you mean" and "mean what you say"... kind of like "let your yes be yes, etc. (Matthew 5:37)".
Whenever I pray, whether in front of an "audience"(mind the quotation marks), or by myself, I absoluelty must mean what I am saying. There are so many phrases from the Bible (and other places) that roll off the tongue so easily, anyone can make the mistake of saying something to the Lord "in vain".
That's not to say that an "audience" cannot spiritually benefit from listening to the prayer they are being "led in". I'm just saying that since prayer is a communication to the Lord, I have to directly say to Him whatever it is that comes out of my mouth. In other words, I have to hold myself accountable for my "every careless word", just as He will hold me accountable later on (Matthew 12:36).
Most modern prayers that I hear end with the phrase, "...In Jesus' name, Amen". This obviously comes from Yeshua's quote recorded in John 14:13-14. But it is extremely serious to actually mean it! Think of the young girl that wants a pony-- so she prays for it, "...in Jesus' name." Adorable and cute as that story is, the fact is-- all the things that I want, all the things that I pray for, "in Jesus' name"-- Do I really mean that? Am I asking for the things that will give Him glory?

Sorry for rambling (and the interruption)... Does this make any sense?

 

[Orthodoxy]

Sorry for interrupting...

I agree that "vain" is a key word in the phrase, "vain repetition".
I imagine there is some repetition that is acceptable, and some that is not. The use of "holy, holy, holy" appears to be acceptable even though it is repeated.
I think it all comes down to "say what you mean" and "mean what you say"... kind of like "let your yes be yes, etc. (Matthew 5:37)".
Whenever I pray, whether in front of an "audience"(mind the quotation marks), or by myself, I absoluelty must mean what I am saying. There are so many phrases from the Bible (and other places) that roll off the tongue so easily, anyone can make the mistake of saying something to the Lord "in vain".
That's not to say that an "audience" cannot spiritually benefit from listening to the prayer they are being "led in". I'm just saying that since prayer is a communication to the Lord, I have to directly say to Him whatever it is that comes out of my mouth. In other words, I have to hold myself accountable for my "every careless word", just as He will hold me accountable later on (Matthew 12:36).
Most modern prayers that I hear end with the phrase, "...In Jesus' name, Amen". This obviously comes from Yeshua's quote recorded in John 14:13-14. But it is extremely serious to actually mean it! Think of the young girl that wants a pony-- so she prays for it, "...in Jesus' name." Adorable and cute as that story is, the fact is-- all the things that I want, all the things that I pray for, "in Jesus' name"-- Do I really mean that? Am I asking for the things that will give Him glory?

Sorry for rambling (and the interruption)... Does this make any sense?

Thank you for your agreement.

According to Scripture we do not know how to pray. If we did know how to pray we would only pray for things that will lead to our salvation and nothing more for that is all God desires, the salvation of a man, thus His answers are going to be to that end.

Orthodoxy

 

[Urambo Tauro]

You just brought up an interesting point--

According to Scripture we do not know how to pray.

This comes from Paul's letter to the Romans (8:26). But then again, we have record of Yeshua instructing the disciples (Luke's account, 11:1-13) on "how to pray". Yeshua's quite a good source on "how to pray"!

If we did know how to pray we would only pray for things that will lead to our salvation and nothing more for that is all God desires, the salvation of a man, thus His answers are going to be to that end.

--And salvation is certainly one of the things included in Yeshua's teachings on how to pray!
...So, what about what Paul wrote? I don't know... maybe of all the things he heard about Yeshua, "how to pray" was over-looked? And Paul was just "in the dark" on proper prayer?

 

[Orthodoxy]

You just brought up an interesting point--

According to Scripture we do not know how to pray.

This comes from Paul's letter to the Romans (8:26). But then again, we have record of Yeshua instructing the disciples (Luke's account, 11:1-13) on "how to pray". Yeshua's quite a good source on "how to pray"!

If we did know how to pray we would only pray for things that will lead to our salvation and nothing more for that is all God desires, the salvation of a man, thus His answers are going to be to that end.

--And salvation is certainly one of the things included in Yeshua's teachings on how to pray!
...So, what about what Paul wrote? I don't know... maybe of all the things he heard about Yeshua, "how to pray" was over-looked? And Paul was just "in the dark" on proper prayer?

Not really. I think Paul knew that a "family that prays together, stays together"

Acts 1:14: "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication"

and

Acts 2:42-44: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

thus "OUR Father" is the whole family of God both in heaven and on the Earth are to pray with the one mind through the one Holy Spirit and not individually for personal gain in vanity.

Of course that is just the Church's opinion which around here doesnt mean much.

Orthodoxy

 

[Urambo Tauro]

...So, what about what Paul wrote? I don't know... maybe of all the things he heard about Yeshua, "how to pray" was over-looked? And Paul was just "in the dark" on proper prayer?

Not really. I think Paul knew that a "family that prays together, stays together"

Acts 1:14: "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication"

and

[quote:ece66]Acts 2:42-44: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

thus "OUR Father" is the whole family of God both in heaven and on the Earth are to pray with the one mind through the one Holy Spirit and not individually for personal gain in vanity.[/quote:ece66]
I understand what you are saying... but I don't understand it as an explanation for Paul's statement. Are you saying that Paul had some good ideas and insight, but had yet to recieve the "proper instrution"?
The way I had pictured it was:
Paul was not present during Yeshua's teaching, and did not have any "gospel accounts" in his "back pocket". Being at the mercy of oral communication and hearsay, he simply was not aware of Yeshua's instruction on prayer, and humbly and honestly admitted it in his writing.
...that's just a theory I was kicking around. It's possible- and seems likely enough. What do you think?

 

[Orthodoxy]

Urambo Tauro,

It is so nice to speak with someone and reason together without personal attacks. Thank you.

Paul was accountable to the Apostles in Jerusalem according to the book of Acts. Acts 15 a prime example where Paul brings his teachings before the Church. Thus I believe Paul most certainly preach the same Gospel as the Apostles.

I also believe Paul followed Jesus Christ and heard many of His teachings. It is quite possible Paul was the "rich young man" that queried Jesus in saying "good master".

Do you agree Paul may have heard many of Jesus's teachings as a "Pharisee of Pharisees"?

Thanks again for your non confrontational responses.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[Urambo Tauro]

Paul was accountable to the Apostles in Jerusalem according to the book of Acts. Acts 15 a prime example where Paul brings his teachings before the Church. Thus I believe Paul most certainly preach the same Gospel as the Apostles.

I also believe Paul followed Jesus Christ and heard many of His teachings. It is quite possible Paul was the "rich young man" that queried Jesus in saying "good master".

Do you agree Paul may have heard many of Jesus's teachings as a "Pharisee of Pharisees"?

Oh, without a doubt! And if he didn't hear Yeshua live, he certainly came into contact with people relaying His message.

But as a "Pharisee of Pharisees", it's uncertain whether or not he actually listened to them. He could easily dismiss them as "false teachings", or he may have tried looking for holes in the "new religion". I sure wish we had more information on the matter.

I had not heard of the theory of Paul being the "rich young man"... That's interesting.

What's your take on Paul's (apparent) ingorance on prayer? I'm sure he was brought up learning to pray a certain way.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Urambo Tauro

Oh, without a doubt! And if he didn't hear Yeshua live, he certainly came into contact with people relaying His message.

A logical conclusion to me.

But as a "Pharisee of Pharisees", it's uncertain whether or not he actually listened to them.

Probably not until he fell off his high horse did that Pharisee believe a word of Jesus or His ordained followers. I am certain he was a hard head "Pharisee" of Pharisees and "leaned on his own understanding".

He could easily dismiss them as "false teachings", or he may have tried looking for holes in the "new religion". I sure wish we had more information on the matter.

I think this verse pretty much covers what Paul was trying to do to the "new religion" converting the land:

Acts 8:3, But Saul began to destroy the church.

Paul was killing Christians on the Earth, the Body of Christ, the Church.

Acts 9:4-5, He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

Here Saul is killing (persecuting) Christians on the earth, the organic body of Jesus Christ, the Church.

I had not heard of the theory of Paul being the "rich young man"... That's interesting.

I am certain that little encounter with Jesus would have made him mad as a hatter. Not unlike a few pharisees of today that are seen on tv preaching a prosperity gospel that exclude repentance. But I digress.

What's your take on Paul's (apparent) ingorance on prayer? I'm sure he was brought up learning to pray a certain way.

My friend,

I believe Paul when he was called Saul prayed the prayer of the Pharisee:

Luke 18:11:

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Not unlike the prayer of the pharisee today that would say:

God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, catholics, orthodox, sinners, or even as this Kyril. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Please Lord help him to see things the way I see them, open his eyes O'Lord to yours and my truth written in your holy word. Help him to get your Holy Spirit O'Lord that he will be one with me as I am one with you.

I am guilty of the pharisitical prayer. A prayer I repent of every saying as a protestant christian.

Now I believe also that Saul had a name change thus a heart change and his prayer then changed to the publicans:

Luke 18:13:

The publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this Paul went down to his house justified rather than the pharisee he was:

For every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

When Saul fell off his high horse Paul was able to say:

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful to me a sinner.

Thus is the prayer of the Orthodox Christian, unceasingly.

Your servant in humility and love,

Kyril

 

[lambsev]

Often, I repeat the same words to God in Prayer. Is it rote? No, it is with passion and meaning. When our prayers become rote and uninspired, they become vain. Contrary to popular belief, you can be repetative, yet each sylabal can be spoken in a new unit of time. It is only when our words overlap the same time period, that they become rote and meaningless.

Do the heterodox understand what "mercy" means? No, not really. What does the word "mercy" conjure up in the minds of the heterodox? A man cowering in a corner begging for mercy from an unmerciful "lord"? Is that the mercy of God? No.

Mercy in the scripture means the act of "pouring the oil of grace" over the head of another. Thus the "mercy" in this "Prayer of the Heart" means "God pour your grace upon me a sinner"

It is no wonder that you post the offal that you do. Mercy, is deliverance through our gracious, loving God. Your rod and your staff comfort me, not as a threat, but as a chasten that we know what is right... That we find the hope, glory and salvation through our God.

Mercy is when we completly fall... into our lords arms......... that have been waiting all along for us to realize that one special moment. Mercy, is loving that which is unlovable. May the Lord bless each and every one of is in this manner.

I would not expect you to agree with anything the Church believes. Of course the Church is wrong and you are right.

Orthodoxy

My first post a response:

Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Grace is getting what you don't deserve.
Justice is getting what you DO deserve. :smt040

 

[lambsev]

Often, I repeat the same words to God in Prayer. Is it rote? No, it is with passion and meaning. When our prayers become rote and uninspired, they become vain. Contrary to popular belief, you can be repetative, yet each sylabal can be spoken in a new unit of time. It is only when our words overlap the same time period, that they become rote and meaningless.

Do the heterodox understand what "mercy" means? No, not really. What does the word "mercy" conjure up in the minds of the heterodox? A man cowering in a corner begging for mercy from an unmerciful "lord"? Is that the mercy of God? No.

Mercy in the scripture means the act of "pouring the oil of grace" over the head of another. Thus the "mercy" in this "Prayer of the Heart" means "God pour your grace upon me a sinner"

It is no wonder that you post the offal that you do. Mercy, is deliverance through our gracious, loving God. Your rod and your staff comfort me, not as a threat, but as a chasten that we know what is right... That we find the hope, glory and salvation through our God.

Mercy is when we completly fall... into our lords arms......... that have been waiting all along for us to realize that one special moment. Mercy, is loving that which is unlovable. May the Lord bless each and every one of is in this manner.

Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Grace is getting what you do not deserve.
Justice is getting what you DO deserve. :smt040

My first post Hi everybody

 

[lambsev]

Often, I repeat the same words to God in Prayer. Is it rote? No, it is with passion and meaning. When our prayers become rote and uninspired, they become vain. Contrary to popular belief, you can be repetative, yet each sylabal can be spoken in a new unit of time. It is only when our words overlap the same time period, that they become rote and meaningless.

Do the heterodox understand what "mercy" means? No, not really. What does the word "mercy" conjure up in the minds of the heterodox? A man cowering in a corner begging for mercy from an unmerciful "lord"? Is that the mercy of God? No.

Mercy in the scripture means the act of "pouring the oil of grace" over the head of another. Thus the "mercy" in this "Prayer of the Heart" means "God pour your grace upon me a sinner"

It is no wonder that you post the offal that you do. Mercy, is deliverance through our gracious, loving God. Your rod and your staff comfort me, not as a threat, but as a chasten that we know what is right... That we find the hope, glory and salvation through our God.

Mercy is when we completly fall... into our lords arms......... that have been waiting all along for us to realize that one special moment. Mercy, is loving that which is unlovable. May the Lord bless each and every one of is in this manner.

Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Grace is getting what you do not deserve.
Justice is getting what you DO deserve. :smt040

My first post Hi everybody

 

[lambsev]

triple post

OOOPS sorry :smt087

 

[Vic C.]

Welcome, lambsev. :angel:

 

[cj]

Paul was accountable to the Apostles in Jerusalem according to the book of Acts.

No he wasn't. This is not what is said in the book of Acts.

Acts 15 a prime example where Paul brings his teachings before the Church.

Paul constantly delivered the full gospel of God as it was given to him by God to the church.

The church was not just those believers in Jerusalem, they simply made up a local expression of the one universal church.

Paul in fact had be taking his gospel before the church for some years long before the local church in Jerusalem heard it.

Thus I believe Paul most certainly preach the same Gospel as the Apostles.

Paul preached far more than that which the first apostles preached.

Fact is, they did not have the revelation that Paul had been given.

I also believe Paul followed Jesus Christ and heard many of His teachings. It is quite possible Paul was the "rich young man" that queried Jesus in saying "good master".

This is how old wives tales get started, eventually becoming some for of false doctrine of the apostate institutions.

In love,
cj