Rev 12:5 the 'male child' can not be the Christ

[Gregg]

I would like to put forth who the male child is not in Rev 12:4-5. This boy-male child is not the Christ for the following reasons:

1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ concern "the things which must soon take place" (Rev 1:1). Therefore, the vision of the woman and the male child could not be about the birth of Christ because that event has already taken place. John was shown this vision as an event ongoing or soon to take place.

2. The dragon here attempting to devour the male child at that time possessed seven heads and ten horns, the seventh and last head being Revived Rome. John explains that the seven heads of the beast are seven mountains, "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits" (Rev 17:9; not the same woman as in Rev 12). The beast did not have seven heads at the time of Christ, as the Rome who crucified Christ was Ancient Rome and the sixth world kingdom. The seventh head of the beast is Revived Rome at the time of Christ's Second Coming, the Great Mountain present at the time when Jesus Christ completes the Church and becomes its Top Stone. "What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' " (Zec 4:7).

3. Jesus Christ was an adult Man when He returned to His throne in Heaven, not a child – "and her child was caught up to God and to His throne" (Rev 12:5). The Old Testament and the New Testament characterize Jesus ascending to the Father as a Man, the Son of God and not the son of a woman, a Lamb slain, the Anointed One, the High Priest, the King - but never as a woman's child.

4. An Old Testament prophesy about the coming of the Messiah characterized Jesus as coming from a woman before she had birth pains. "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy" (Isa 66:7). But the woman in the Revelation had birth pains and cried out (Rev 12:2) being in labor to give birth. The woman is Zion who gives birth to children according to faith in God and Jesus Christ. This woman of Revelation 12 had pain in her childbirth; of this Isaiah continues writing, "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons" (Isa 66:8). And of these latter sons and their travail, John writes, "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17). Refer to Isa 66:8-9 regarding comparison to the birth of Israel out of Egypt in one day and her travail before and leading up to that day. Zion travailed and brought forth many sons; yet Christ's birth came before the birth of the Church, and Christ's ascension to God occurred before the birth of the Church at the Pentecost [birth of many sons].

5. Jesus descended from heaven to earth and was born on the earth in the flesh as a Man. The child born of the woman came to be while she was in heaven, standing in the moon, while the dragon attempting to devour him was also in heaven sweeping away stars of heaven with his tail (Rev 12:4).

6. The dragon tried to devour this child, and the child was caught up to God and to His throne. Yet Jesus fled to Egypt with his natural parents to flee Herod's murder in Bethlehem. Jesus returned later to Palestine and Judea. Whereas Jesus returned to the promised Land after fleeing, the Woman fled into the wilderness after the male child was seized from violence and then went to heaven.

7. The manner in which this child was "caught up" to God's throne differs from the ways in which Jesus went to God after his death on the cross. The male child in Revelation 12 was caught away by force [Greek harpazo], plucked up, pulled or seized. This is not characteristics of Jesus' appearance before His Father between His death and Resurrection (see "Christ appeared" and "entered the holy place" (Heb 9:11-12). Jesus "parted" [Greek diisteme] and was "carried up" [Greek anaphero] to heaven (Lk 24:51). Jesus was lifted up [Greek epairo] and a cloud received Him 40 days after His Resurrection (Act 1:9, as opposed to being seized and pulled up to God. Mark says that Jesus was received up [Greek analambano] into heaven (Mk 16:19) and John quotes Jesus as saying I ascend-climb-spring up [Greek anabaino] (John 20:17; so with the two witnesses Rev 11:12). Like the mail child of the woman clothed in the sun, Paul was caught up to heaven with violent force (2Cor 12:2); so will be the Church who is alive at the Rapture (1The 4:17).

8. This child was caught up to God's throne, whereas Revelation goes to great length to demonstrate that Jesus is God who shares His Father's throne. Jesus appeared before His Father's throne to make atonement for the Church with His blood (Heb 9:24), but this event here in the Revelation does not mention or remotely call upon the events of His sacrifice or heavenly offering.

9. The characters in this vision are spiritual in nature as John saw this sign appearing in heaven. However, John in his Gospel speaks clearly that Jesus was born in the flesh (Jn 1:14), taking upon himself the form of a man, and dwelled among us. The child here in Rev 12 did not dwell [spiritually] first among man but was taken up to heaven directly upon his spiritual birth. Similarly, believers (Eph 1:19-20) are raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph 2:6).

10. The woman stood on the moon and was wearing a victory wreath which symbolizes her having victory over the Law. Jesus did not fulfill the Law before He was born but at His Crucifixion and Resurrection (Mat 5:17) where He Himself wore a crown of thorns.

11. John writes that those who are the Church and overcome "TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;" (Rev 2:26-27). John refers to individual members of the Church first as a "male child" (Rev 12:5) and then as "the rest of her children" (Rev 12:17). The male child has the seed of his father and carries on his name. As born again Christians [having a new spiritual birth], the Church carries on the name of its Builder, the Son Jesus Christ.

12. Prior to the birth of this son, the woman had other sons [the rest of her offspring] who believed in the testimony of Jesus [i.e. His death and Resurrection] (Rev 12:17).

13. The rule of this male child is yet to occur, "a male child, who is to rule" (Rev 12:5). The Greek text reads literally "a male child who is about-intended-expected to rule." The action here is current and future whereas the Old Testament says that the Messiah even ruled at the time of Noah; "The LORD sat as King at the flood; Yes, the LORD sits as King forever" (Ps 29:10). The action of this child is impending, whereas the Son of God ruled the nations, even all the world, before He returned to heaven (Jn 18:36-37). Jesus shepherds His flock with the rod of wood and those He corrects with a rod of iron shattering them like earthenware (Ps 2:8-9; see Isa 49:6, Rev 19:15); and He has distributed this task to believers (Rev 2:27).

14. This male child was caught up to God's throne without the woman, whereas the woman immediately fled into the wilderness unaccompanied by this male child. This is not a scenario portraying Jesus' flight into Egypt as an infant.

15. Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended with His own power. He laid down His life and He Himself took it up again (Jn 10:17); whereas this male child in Rev 12:5 was passively "caught up" - not of his own power or agency.

16. Christ was not brought to God as was this child; rather Jesus Christ Himself as an adult Man "entered the holy place" before God in heaven (Heb 9:11-12). Christ laid down His life and He took it up again.

17. The son of this woman is referred to as "her child" (Rev 12:5). John in the Gospel and in the Revelation refers to Jesus as the Son of God, the Son of Man, and one like a son of man; but never as a 'son' to Mary [a name which is also never attributed to her in the Gospel of John or his other books].

 

[Eugene]

I will add Rev 4:1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Many that believe Jesus was the Man Child of Rev 12:5 will read this and attempt to assign it to being a parenthesis looking back to Jesus' birth. I will not say who the Man Child is due to the fact it would not fit the OP of who he is not.

 

[Gregg]

Hi Eugene,

I should have also asked for posts indicating who the male child is, and would like to open this forum to that as well.

Please feel free to comment.

 

[Eugene]

Rev 7:4 . . there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:3 . . the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women (Man child - also note the testimony of the five wise virgins); for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Man child), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[ezrider]

I would agree that the Women is Zion, our New Jerusalem; but in the end, I believe the man child caught up unto God and to his throne is Jesus. I just do not see another.

But if I might, I have been seeing Revelation 12 more as a long term vision so to speak.

Rev 12: 1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

I have begun to wonder if this doesn't represent Zion when it was presented to the children of Israel before Mt Horeb, where the Lord was to write his laws in their hearts and in their minds, and that he should dwell with them, and they should be his people. But the children of Israel rejected the Spirit of the Lord, and chose to follow Moses instead.

Rev 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I have come to a point where I tend to relate the identity of dragon, the serpent, the adversary, etc.. to the Law. The Law and the power of Sin that accompanies it. When the children of Israel refused the Spirit of the Lord, they chose instead to follow all that Moses commanded them. Could this be the third part of the stars of heaven being cast to the earth when they made their covenant with death? And as the dragon stood before the women, so too does the Law accuse us and seek to devour us.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Who other than the Messiah was to rule all nations with a rod or iron? But instead they killed their King. And Stephen before he died looked into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus on the right hand of God.

Rev 12:10-11 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I see the power of Law as the accuser of the brethren. Jesus said you have one that accuses you, even Moses in whom you trust. It is the Law that accuses us day and night of sin, but through the death and resurrection of Christ, we have become dead to sin in the flesh, that we should no longer serve it, having been released from our covenant with death. The Lord has declared that he would forgive our iniquities and would remember our sins no more; And so the Law, the accuser of the brethren is cast down, and the people overcome the Law by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of their Faith, and by the Grace of God.

Again, I don't see anyone other than Jesus who could be the man child, He was after all considered to be the First Fruit.

Any thoughts on the vision starting at Mt Horeb? Who else do you think the third part of the stars of heaven could be referring to?

 

[gr8grace3]

I would like to put forth who the male child is not in Rev 12:4-5. This boy-male child is not the Christ for the following reasons:

1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ concern "the things which must soon take place" (Rev 1:1). Therefore, the vision of the woman and the male child could not be about the birth of Christ because that event has already taken place. John was shown this vision as an event ongoing or soon to take place.

2. The dragon here attempting to devour the male child at that time possessed seven heads and ten horns, the seventh and last head being Revived Rome. John explains that the seven heads of the beast are seven mountains, "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits" (Rev 17:9; not the same woman as in Rev 12). The beast did not have seven heads at the time of Christ, as the Rome who crucified Christ was Ancient Rome and the sixth world kingdom. The seventh head of the beast is Revived Rome at the time of Christ's Second Coming, the Great Mountain present at the time when Jesus Christ completes the Church and becomes its Top Stone. "What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' " (Zec 4:7).

3. Jesus Christ was an adult Man when He returned to His throne in Heaven, not a child – "and her child was caught up to God and to His throne" (Rev 12:5). The Old Testament and the New Testament characterize Jesus ascending to the Father as a Man, the Son of God and not the son of a woman, a Lamb slain, the Anointed One, the High Priest, the King - but never as a woman's child.

4. An Old Testament prophesy about the coming of the Messiah characterized Jesus as coming from a woman before she had birth pains. "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy" (Isa 66:7). But the woman in the Revelation had birth pains and cried out (Rev 12:2) being in labor to give birth. The woman is Zion who gives birth to children according to faith in God and Jesus Christ. This woman of Revelation 12 had pain in her childbirth; of this Isaiah continues writing, "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons" (Isa 66:8). And of these latter sons and their travail, John writes, "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17). Refer to Isa 66:8-9 regarding comparison to the birth of Israel out of Egypt in one day and her travail before and leading up to that day. Zion travailed and brought forth many sons; yet Christ's birth came before the birth of the Church, and Christ's ascension to God occurred before the birth of the Church at the Pentecost [birth of many sons].

5. Jesus descended from heaven to earth and was born on the earth in the flesh as a Man. The child born of the woman came to be while she was in heaven, standing in the moon, while the dragon attempting to devour him was also in heaven sweeping away stars of heaven with his tail (Rev 12:4).

6. The dragon tried to devour this child, and the child was caught up to God and to His throne. Yet Jesus fled to Egypt with his natural parents to flee Herod's murder in Bethlehem. Jesus returned later to Palestine and Judea. Whereas Jesus returned to the promised Land after fleeing, the Woman fled into the wilderness after the male child was seized from violence and then went to heaven.

7. The manner in which this child was "caught up" to God's throne differs from the ways in which Jesus went to God after his death on the cross. The male child in Revelation 12 was caught away by force [Greek harpazo], plucked up, pulled or seized. This is not characteristics of Jesus' appearance before His Father between His death and Resurrection (see "Christ appeared" and "entered the holy place" (Heb 9:11-12). Jesus "parted" [Greek diisteme] and was "carried up" [Greek anaphero] to heaven (Lk 24:51). Jesus was lifted up [Greek epairo] and a cloud received Him 40 days after His Resurrection (Act 1:9, as opposed to being seized and pulled up to God. Mark says that Jesus was received up [Greek analambano] into heaven (Mk 16:19) and John quotes Jesus as saying I ascend-climb-spring up [Greek anabaino] (John 20:17; so with the two witnesses Rev 11:12). Like the mail child of the woman clothed in the sun, Paul was caught up to heaven with violent force (2Cor 12:2); so will be the Church who is alive at the Rapture (1The 4:17).

8. This child was caught up to God's throne, whereas Revelation goes to great length to demonstrate that Jesus is God who shares His Father's throne. Jesus appeared before His Father's throne to make atonement for the Church with His blood (Heb 9:24), but this event here in the Revelation does not mention or remotely call upon the events of His sacrifice or heavenly offering.

9. The characters in this vision are spiritual in nature as John saw this sign appearing in heaven. However, John in his Gospel speaks clearly that Jesus was born in the flesh (Jn 1:14), taking upon himself the form of a man, and dwelled among us. The child here in Rev 12 did not dwell [spiritually] first among man but was taken up to heaven directly upon his spiritual birth. Similarly, believers (Eph 1:19-20) are raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph 2:6).

10. The woman stood on the moon and was wearing a victory wreath which symbolizes her having victory over the Law. Jesus did not fulfill the Law before He was born but at His Crucifixion and Resurrection (Mat 5:17) where He Himself wore a crown of thorns.

11. John writes that those who are the Church and overcome "TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;" (Rev 2:26-27). John refers to individual members of the Church first as a "male child" (Rev 12:5) and then as "the rest of her children" (Rev 12:17). The male child has the seed of his father and carries on his name. As born again Christians [having a new spiritual birth], the Church carries on the name of its Builder, the Son Jesus Christ.

12. Prior to the birth of this son, the woman had other sons [the rest of her offspring] who believed in the testimony of Jesus [i.e. His death and Resurrection] (Rev 12:17).

13. The rule of this male child is yet to occur, "a male child, who is to rule" (Rev 12:5). The Greek text reads literally "a male child who is about-intended-expected to rule." The action here is current and future whereas the Old Testament says that the Messiah even ruled at the time of Noah; "The LORD sat as King at the flood; Yes, the LORD sits as King forever" (Ps 29:10). The action of this child is impending, whereas the Son of God ruled the nations, even all the world, before He returned to heaven (Jn 18:36-37). Jesus shepherds His flock with the rod of wood and those He corrects with a rod of iron shattering them like earthenware (Ps 2:8-9; see Isa 49:6, Rev 19:15); and He has distributed this task to believers (Rev 2:27).

14. This male child was caught up to God's throne without the woman, whereas the woman immediately fled into the wilderness unaccompanied by this male child. This is not a scenario portraying Jesus' flight into Egypt as an infant.

15. Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended with His own power. He laid down His life and He Himself took it up again (Jn 10:17); whereas this male child in Rev 12:5 was passively "caught up" - not of his own power or agency.

16. Christ was not brought to God as was this child; rather Jesus Christ Himself as an adult Man "entered the holy place" before God in heaven (Heb 9:11-12). Christ laid down His life and He took it up again.

17. The son of this woman is referred to as "her child" (Rev 12:5). John in the Gospel and in the Revelation refers to Jesus as the Son of God, the Son of Man, and one like a son of man; but never as a 'son' to Mary [a name which is also never attributed to her in the Gospel of John or his other books].

Gregg, lots of info. I will keep it to 2 questions or comments from the beginning. If this was ongoing or soon to happen, we would have to read it as Satan had not fallen yet.

1.If this was ongoing or soon to happen, we would have to read it as Satan had not fallen yet or would soon fall. And we know that Satan Had already fallen Before this.

2. In Rev 12:5 we have the "Son" as child {huios}(Marys child) when born. When returning to the Father we have adult son(the Fathers Son) {teknon}.

Just with these 2 points I would have to question your position.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg, lots of info. I will keep it to 2 questions or comments from the beginning. If this was ongoing or soon to happen, we would have to read it as Satan had not fallen yet.

1.If this was ongoing or soon to happen, we would have to read it as Satan had not fallen yet or would soon fall. And we know that Satan Had already fallen Before this.

2. In Rev 12:5 we have the "Son" as child {huios}(Marys child) when born. When returning to the Father we have adult son(the Fathers Son) {teknon}.

Just with these 2 points I would have to question your position.

Hello gr8grace,
1. about Satan falling (Rev 12:9-10): I adhere to a post-trib rapture occurring on the Feast of Trumpets. So I understand that he accuses us before God until the Rapture, when he is at that time thrown down [perhaps finally] to the earth .

2. τέκνον is a child as produced, and υἱός is more general. In Rev 12:5, John uses both υἱός [she bore a son] and τέκνον [her child was caught away]. I am not sure what may be implied by the use of either here, but it is interesting and might make for a good study.

The Father refers to Jesus saying, My Son [huios] (Mat 3:17, Mk 1:11, Lk 3:2, LXX Ps 2:7). After His Ascension, John also describes Jesus as One like a Son [huios] of Man (John 14:14) just before the Rapture (John 14:16). John was a son [huios] of thunder (Mk 3:17).

 

[Sinthesis]

2. In Rev 12:5 we have the "Son" as child {huios}(Marys child) when born. When returning to the Father we have adult son(the Fathers Son) {teknon}.

Thanks for this.

 

[jocor]

I would like to put forth who the male child is not in Rev 12:4-5. This boy-male child is not the Christ for the following reasons:

1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ concern "the things which must soon take place" (Rev 1:1). Therefore, the vision of the woman and the male child could not be about the birth of Christ because that event has already taken place. John was shown this vision as an event ongoing or soon to take place.

2. The dragon here attempting to devour the male child at that time possessed seven heads and ten horns, the seventh and last head being Revived Rome. John explains that the seven heads of the beast are seven mountains, "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits" (Rev 17:9; not the same woman as in Rev 12). The beast did not have seven heads at the time of Christ, as the Rome who crucified Christ was Ancient Rome and the sixth world kingdom. The seventh head of the beast is Revived Rome at the time of Christ's Second Coming, the Great Mountain present at the time when Jesus Christ completes the Church and becomes its Top Stone. "What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' " (Zec 4:7).

3. Jesus Christ was an adult Man when He returned to His throne in Heaven, not a child – "and her child was caught up to God and to His throne" (Rev 12:5). The Old Testament and the New Testament characterize Jesus ascending to the Father as a Man, the Son of God and not the son of a woman, a Lamb slain, the Anointed One, the High Priest, the King - but never as a woman's child.

4. An Old Testament prophesy about the coming of the Messiah characterized Jesus as coming from a woman before she had birth pains. "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy" (Isa 66:7). But the woman in the Revelation had birth pains and cried out (Rev 12:2) being in labor to give birth. The woman is Zion who gives birth to children according to faith in God and Jesus Christ. This woman of Revelation 12 had pain in her childbirth; of this Isaiah continues writing, "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons" (Isa 66:8). And of these latter sons and their travail, John writes, "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17). Refer to Isa 66:8-9 regarding comparison to the birth of Israel out of Egypt in one day and her travail before and leading up to that day. Zion travailed and brought forth many sons; yet Christ's birth came before the birth of the Church, and Christ's ascension to God occurred before the birth of the Church at the Pentecost [birth of many sons].

5. Jesus descended from heaven to earth and was born on the earth in the flesh as a Man. The child born of the woman came to be while she was in heaven, standing in the moon, while the dragon attempting to devour him was also in heaven sweeping away stars of heaven with his tail (Rev 12:4).

6. The dragon tried to devour this child, and the child was caught up to God and to His throne. Yet Jesus fled to Egypt with his natural parents to flee Herod's murder in Bethlehem. Jesus returned later to Palestine and Judea. Whereas Jesus returned to the promised Land after fleeing, the Woman fled into the wilderness after the male child was seized from violence and then went to heaven.

7. The manner in which this child was "caught up" to God's throne differs from the ways in which Jesus went to God after his death on the cross. The male child in Revelation 12 was caught away by force [Greek harpazo], plucked up, pulled or seized. This is not characteristics of Jesus' appearance before His Father between His death and Resurrection (see "Christ appeared" and "entered the holy place" (Heb 9:11-12). Jesus "parted" [Greek diisteme] and was "carried up" [Greek anaphero] to heaven (Lk 24:51). Jesus was lifted up [Greek epairo] and a cloud received Him 40 days after His Resurrection (Act 1:9, as opposed to being seized and pulled up to God. Mark says that Jesus was received up [Greek analambano] into heaven (Mk 16:19) and John quotes Jesus as saying I ascend-climb-spring up [Greek anabaino] (John 20:17; so with the two witnesses Rev 11:12). Like the mail child of the woman clothed in the sun, Paul was caught up to heaven with violent force (2Cor 12:2); so will be the Church who is alive at the Rapture (1The 4:17).

8. This child was caught up to God's throne, whereas Revelation goes to great length to demonstrate that Jesus is God who shares His Father's throne. Jesus appeared before His Father's throne to make atonement for the Church with His blood (Heb 9:24), but this event here in the Revelation does not mention or remotely call upon the events of His sacrifice or heavenly offering.

9. The characters in this vision are spiritual in nature as John saw this sign appearing in heaven. However, John in his Gospel speaks clearly that Jesus was born in the flesh (Jn 1:14), taking upon himself the form of a man, and dwelled among us. The child here in Rev 12 did not dwell [spiritually] first among man but was taken up to heaven directly upon his spiritual birth. Similarly, believers (Eph 1:19-20) are raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph 2:6).

10. The woman stood on the moon and was wearing a victory wreath which symbolizes her having victory over the Law. Jesus did not fulfill the Law before He was born but at His Crucifixion and Resurrection (Mat 5:17) where He Himself wore a crown of thorns.

11. John writes that those who are the Church and overcome "TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;" (Rev 2:26-27). John refers to individual members of the Church first as a "male child" (Rev 12:5) and then as "the rest of her children" (Rev 12:17). The male child has the seed of his father and carries on his name. As born again Christians [having a new spiritual birth], the Church carries on the name of its Builder, the Son Jesus Christ.

12. Prior to the birth of this son, the woman had other sons [the rest of her offspring] who believed in the testimony of Jesus [i.e. His death and Resurrection] (Rev 12:17).

13. The rule of this male child is yet to occur, "a male child, who is to rule" (Rev 12:5). The Greek text reads literally "a male child who is about-intended-expected to rule." The action here is current and future whereas the Old Testament says that the Messiah even ruled at the time of Noah; "The LORD sat as King at the flood; Yes, the LORD sits as King forever" (Ps 29:10). The action of this child is impending, whereas the Son of God ruled the nations, even all the world, before He returned to heaven (Jn 18:36-37). Jesus shepherds His flock with the rod of wood and those He corrects with a rod of iron shattering them like earthenware (Ps 2:8-9; see Isa 49:6, Rev 19:15); and He has distributed this task to believers (Rev 2:27).

14. This male child was caught up to God's throne without the woman, whereas the woman immediately fled into the wilderness unaccompanied by this male child. This is not a scenario portraying Jesus' flight into Egypt as an infant.

15. Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended with His own power. He laid down His life and He Himself took it up again (Jn 10:17); whereas this male child in Rev 12:5 was passively "caught up" - not of his own power or agency.

16. Christ was not brought to God as was this child; rather Jesus Christ Himself as an adult Man "entered the holy place" before God in heaven (Heb 9:11-12). Christ laid down His life and He took it up again.

17. The son of this woman is referred to as "her child" (Rev 12:5). John in the Gospel and in the Revelation refers to Jesus as the Son of God, the Son of Man, and one like a son of man; but never as a 'son' to Mary [a name which is also never attributed to her in the Gospel of John or his other books].

Good post for the most part Gregg. I agree wholeheartedly that the child is NOT Messiah. I disagree with three points that have no bearing on the truth that Messiah is not the child. I will address one, point #10:

10. The woman stood on the moon and was wearing a victory wreath which symbolizes her having victory over the Law. Jesus did not fulfill the Law before He was born but at His Crucifixion and Resurrection (Mat 5:17) where He Himself wore a crown of thorns.​

The woman is not wearing a "victory wreath", but a crown of twelve stars. The twelve stars represent either the twelve tribes of Israel (Gen.37:9) or the twelve apostles.

Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."​

She did not win victory over the Law. If anything, she won victory over Sin, death and Satan. The Law simply points out sin (transgressing the Law).

 

[jocor]

Gregg, lots of info. I will keep it to 2 questions or comments from the beginning. If this was ongoing or soon to happen, we would have to read it as Satan had not fallen yet.

1.If this was ongoing or soon to happen, we would have to read it as Satan had not fallen yet or would soon fall. And we know that Satan Had already fallen Before this.

2. In Rev 12:5 we have the "Son" as child {huios}(Marys child) when born. When returning to the Father we have adult son(the Fathers Son) {teknon}.

Just with these 2 points I would have to question your position.

I assume you are referring to Luke 10:18 - "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" and/or John 12:31 - "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31 takes place six days before Yeshua died, yet Satan was not yet cast out. Luke 10:18 took place long before that and yet, implies Satan was already fallen. How do you harmonize this? I harmonize it by believing Yeshua was speaking prophetically in Luke 10:18. Since his disciples were having victory over devils. Yeshua looks forward and beholds the ultimate end of that, the permanent fall of Satan in Rev 12.

 

[Gregg]

Good post for the most part Gregg. I agree wholeheartedly that the child is NOT Messiah. I disagree with three points that have no bearing on the truth that Messiah is not the child. I will address one, point #10:

10. The woman stood on the moon and was wearing a victory wreath which symbolizes her having victory over the Law. Jesus did not fulfill the Law before He was born but at His Crucifixion and Resurrection (Mat 5:17) where He Himself wore a crown of thorns.​

The woman is not wearing a "victory wreath", but a crown of twelve stars. The twelve stars represent either the twelve tribes of Israel (Gen.37:9) or the twelve apostles.

Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."​

She did not win victory over the Law. If anything, she won victory over Sin, death and Satan. The Law simply points out sin (transgressing the Law).

Hi Jacor,

The Revelation uses both stephanos and diadema for something worn on the head. I wonder if they were used interchangeably, or if their use indicates something specific about that particular vision. I take 'a woven wreath' to be the translation for stephanos in that the Church is victorious. Perhaps the 12 stars indicates her co-administration with Christ, as 12 is a number used for complete administration.

Point 10 is more about her standing on the moon, and I should have separated the two. The moon is a reflection only of its true source of light, the sun. The moon governs the night or darkness, while the sun governs the day. Similarly, the Law is not a light in and of itself; rather, it is a reflection of the the One who gave the Law. The Law served as a [or Israel's] tutor until the True Light (Jn 1:9) came, Jesus Christ. "For the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things. Appearing year by year with the same sacrifices, which they offer continually, they never are able to perfect the ones drawing near" (Heb 10:1).

I hear and respect what you have written here, and am taking those thoughts into consideration.

 

[Sinthesis]

I assume you are referring to Luke 10:18 - "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" and/or John 12:31 - "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31 takes place six days before Yeshua died, yet Satan was not yet cast out. Luke 10:18 took place long before that and yet, implies Satan was already fallen. How do you harmonize this? I harmonize it by believing Yeshua was speaking prophetically in Luke 10:18. Since his disciples were having victory over devils. Yeshua looks forward and beholds the ultimate end of that, the permanent fall of Satan in Rev 12.

See? You can stretch as well!

 

[Eugene]

Has anyone considered when the Lord's Day is in the different viewpoints presented to John when attempting to assign different prophesies yet to come?

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (Think Lord's Day versus man's day)

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (1st viewpoint - things that have happened till that point), and the things which are (2nd viewpoint is now), and the things which shall be hereafter; (3rd viewpoint is future).

Somewhere in all this should come the realization that Rev 4:1 fits the future (Things hereafter) when judgments will come to an unbelieving world, and deliverance to God's elect as the result.

 

[Gregg]

She did not win victory over the Law. If anything, she won victory over Sin, death and Satan. The Law simply points out sin (transgressing the Law).

Yes, I agree. She [being the faithful woman, the Bride of Christ] does not overcome the Law, but rather sin and death that the Law exposes. That is what I had in mind but did not word it properly, or completely develop the thought.

The woman in Rev 12 is the faithful woman [like Sara] who bares children 'through the promise' and are believing in Jesus Christ; whereas the woman who rides the beast [like Hagar] bares children according to the flesh and are children of wrath.

 

[childeye]

I believe the man child is the Christ. There is a difference between the fall of Satan which refers to how or why Satan falls, and his being cast out of heaven which is the removing of his place in heaven. The war in heaven happens because Satan is exposed as an overzealous self righteous and merciless prosecutor of mankind by means of the crucifixion of the son of God. Consequently the casting out of Satan happens immediately after the crucifixion of Christ and his resurrection.

 

[jocor]

Hi Eugene,

I should have also asked for posts indicating who the male child is, and would like to open this forum to that as well.

Please feel free to comment.

I believe the man child represents the first group of 144,000 to be resurrected. The "remnant of her seed" (vs. 17) is the second group of 144,000. There are actually two groups totaling 288,000 to fulfill the type of David's kingdom found in 1 Chronicles 27:1-15. The captains and officers of verse 1 were to serve King David in any matter that arose throughout the year. This statement is fulfilled by that in Rev.14:4, "These are they which follow the Lamb wherever he goes." King David is a type of King Yeshua, the anti-type. Just as these servants in 1 Chr.27:1 served King David in all matters of his kingdom, the 288,000 firstfruits serve King Yeshua in all matters of his kingdom.

Verses 2-15 tell us there were 24,000 officers that served the king each month for 12 months (12 x 24,000 = 288,000). Two wave loaves with 144,000 representing each loaf = 288,000. King Yeshua has a government to run. His saints will rule with a rod of iron by his side (Rev.2:26,27; 12:5). The 288,000 firstfruits will be the highest ranking officers in that kingdom government. Everyone else resurrected in the main harvest will be reigning in a position of lesser importance in the kingdom (Rev.20:4).

 

[Kathi]

Yes, I agree. She [being the faithful woman, the Bride of Christ] does not overcome the Law, but rather sin and death that the Law exposes. That is what I had in mind but did not word it properly, or completely develop the thought.

The woman in Rev 12 is the faithful woman [like Sara] who bares children 'through the promise' and are believing in Jesus Christ; whereas the woman who rides the beast [like Hagar] bares children according to the flesh and are children of wrath.

The woman is Mary who gave birth to Jesus.The child is Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

I believe the man child represents the first group of 144,000 to be resurrected. The "remnant of her seed" (vs. 17) is the second group of 144,000. There are actually two groups totaling 288,000 to fulfill the type of David's kingdom found in 1 Chronicles 27:1-15.

I have a study by Gene Hawkins I transcribed and will just paste the following excerpt I believe is saying more or less the same thing you are bringing forth here.

“They are called the first fruits unto God. That means they are the firstfruits of the nation of Israel and that there are more to follow and so the one hundred and forty-four thousand is just the earnest, foretaste, or forerunner so to speak of the entire nation of Israel that is going to come on the scene later whenever a nation is born in one day that we read of in Isaiah 66:8. "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

I will have to study into the possibility of Jesus' following turning into 288,000 at being the ensample or type of David's reign. Thanks for the thought on this.

 

[jocor]

I have a study by Gene Hawkins I transcribed and will just paste the following excerpt I believe is saying more or less the same thing you are bringing forth here.

“They are called the first fruits unto God. That means they are the firstfruits of the nation of Israel and that there are more to follow and so the one hundred and forty-four thousand is just the earnest, foretaste, or forerunner so to speak of the entire nation of Israel that is going to come on the scene later whenever a nation is born in one day that we read of in Isaiah 66:8. "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

I will have to study into the possibility of Jesus' following turning into 288,000 at being the ensample or type of David's reign. Thanks for the thought on this.

His belief is similar, but he seems to be limiting it to a future nation of Israel in the flesh that is separate from believers in Messiah ("the Israel of God"- spiritual Israel). The nation that will be born at once refers to believers that comprise the nation that will populate the Kingdom of Yahweh after their resurrection. Messiah was the firstfruit of that Kingdom via his resurrection (Isaiah 66:7). His disciples will follow him via their resurrection to complete the holy nation under Messiah.

BTW, the 288,000 also tie into Pentecost (the Feast of Weeks). The two wave loaves offered on that day represent the two groups of 144,000. Just as the loaves represent the firstfruits of Israel's literal wheat harvest (Lev 23:17), the 288,000 represent the firstfruits of the spiritual wheat harvest of souls at the resurrection (Rev 14:4).

 

[jocor]

Point 10 is more about her standing on the moon, and I should have separated the two. The moon is a reflection only of its true source of light, the sun. The moon governs the night or darkness, while the sun governs the day. Similarly, the Law is not a light in and of itself; rather, it is a reflection of the the One who gave the Law. The Law served as a [or Israel's] tutor until the True Light (Jn 1:9) came, Jesus Christ. "For the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things. Appearing year by year with the same sacrifices, which they offer continually, they never are able to perfect the ones drawing near" (Heb 10:1).

I disagree with your understanding of the Law, but I won't get into that so as not to get off topic.