Revelation 17 Harlot

[Vince]

The Catholic Church will not rule over all the kings of the earth until after the Rapture.

Where is that written in the scriptures?

Valid question. John's vision of the great harlot occurs after the Rapture. The fact that the Catholic Church does not rule over the kings of the earth today does not invalidate its future description. The Catholic Church is drunk with the blood of the saints, and it is headquartered in a city of seven hills.

 

[JudaicChristian]

The Catholic Church will not rule over all the kings of the earth until after the Rapture.

Valid question. John's vision of the great harlot occurs after the Rapture. The fact that the Catholic Church does not rule over the kings of the earth today does not invalidate its future description. The Catholic Church is drunk with the blood of the saints, and it is headquartered in a city of seven hills.

In regards to: "John's vision of the great harlot occurs after the Rapture."
I see no support for that assertion in scriptures. I see that there is a resurrection of the Elect who are dead or dieing. The reign of Christ is also here on earth for a thousand years. So there must be some survivors who are the elect. The term "Rapture" is not biblical.

 

[(THE)]

The Catholic Church will not rule over all the kings of the earth until after the Rapture.

Is the rapture the same things as the day of the Lord????????

Does the rapture happen before antichrist arrives?????????

 

[Vince]

The Catholic Church will not rule over all the kings of the earth until after the Rapture.

Is the rapture the same things as the day of the Lord????????

Does the rapture happen before antichrist arrives?????????

Let me answer the easy one first. The Antichrist will not be revealed until after the Rapture.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

The Greek word "revealed" refers to a wide-spread revelation. People might know the Antichrist right now, but he will not be a famous, public figure, until after the Rapture.

"The day of the Lord" is a general phrase for any catastrophic visitation by God. It is used in various places for various battles and other punishments. The Second Coming of Christ, as well as other days, is referred to as the day of the Lord.

 

[(THE)]

The Catholic Church will not rule over all the kings of the earth until after the Rapture.

Is the rapture the same things as the day of the Lord????????

Does the rapture happen before antichrist arrives?????????

Let me answer the easy one first. The Antichrist will not be revealed until after the Rapture.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

The Greek word "revealed" refers to a wide-spread revelation. People might know the Antichrist right now, but he will not be a famous, public figure, until after the Rapture.

"The day of the Lord" is a general phrase for any catastrophic visitation by God. It is used in various places for various battles and other punishments. The Second Coming of Christ, as well as other days, is referred to as the day of the Lord.

Sorry bro,,,im not buying it......

For 1

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Here we have insructions on what to do when we are delivered,,,,, for not following the antichrist..............Why would God give you instructions if you were not going be here??????

Who are these instruction for??????????

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

As we can see these instructions are for the elects,,,,if there was a rapture (but theres not) surely the elect would be taken,,,but as you can see they are still here........

also when satan/antichrist is let kicked out,,,he will release the fallen angels..see below

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

GOd gives instructions to these fallen ones,,,,see below..

4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

also

Revelation 7:2
Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:
Revelation 7:3
"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."

Take note God is not going to allow harm to come to the (elect) people with the seal of God in there brain..........BUt youre saying the (elects) wont be here......

Do you see the problem with this????????????

Why would God give such orders if the elects,,,aka (faithful christians) were not going to be here?????????

Because we will be here........

DO you understand type and shadows??????? If so read Daniel........We see there a type for the beast system and Daniel had to go thru the tribulation,,,,,just like we will........I know i know off topic,,,,alright back to it......



)

 

[veteran]

The Revelation events spell out Jerusalem for the great apostasy events. And since we're told at the end of Rev.17 that the Babylon harlot is "a great city", that's specific.

I agree Proverbs 7 is speaking of wisdom as a lady compared to the spiritual harlot, which is the ways of this world through Satan's rebellion against all good doctrine. But that is a metaphor that can be applied to all the pagan beast kingdoms of history.

In Rev.11 we're given that kind of comparison when Jerusalem where our Lord Jesus was crucified, is compared spiritually to Sodom and Egypt. We're shown it's there in Jerusalem that God's "two witnesses" will appear and be murdered by the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan).

 

[Cornelius]

The Revelation events spell out Jerusalem for the great apostasy events. And since we're told at the end of Rev.17 that the Babylon harlot is "a great city", that's specific.

I agree Proverbs 7 is speaking of wisdom as a lady compared to the spiritual harlot, which is the ways of this world through Satan's rebellion against all good doctrine. But that is a metaphor that can be applied to all the pagan beast kingdoms of history.

In Rev.11 we're given that kind of comparison when Jerusalem where our Lord Jesus was crucified, is compared spiritually to Sodom and Egypt. We're shown it's there in Jerusalem that God's "two witnesses" will appear and be murdered by the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan).

An interesting fact is that Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. In metaphor this would have placed Him in spiritual "Babylon" (the great city) Babylon in metaphor is also seen in Sodom and the Old Testament use of Egypt is the same. They all speak of the world without God. They also symbolize "flesh" (Israel longed to go back there to the flesh pots of Egypt, as Christians sometimes long back to their worldly lusts )
Jerusalem is the symbol for those who are in Christ. Jerusalem are God's people and they are in Christ. So symbolically Jesus could not be crucified IN Jerusalem , but needed to suffer and die outside (in "Babylon") where salvation is needed.

 

[veteran]

Christ was crucified outside the walls of Jerusalem, at a place called Golgatha.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)

There's only two other places to compare that to in the Rev.11:8 verse, so how far away was Sodom from Golgatha? It was a city at the southern end of the Dead Sea, quite a ways from Golgatha. And Egypt? Egypt was a whole other country! Arguing our Lord was crucified anywhere else than Jerusalem is ignorance.

 

[Cornelius]

An interesting fact is that Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. In metaphor this would have placed Him in spiritual "Babylon" (the great city) Babylon in metaphor is also seen in Sodom and the Old Testament use of Egypt is the same. They all speak of the world without God. They also symbolize "flesh" (Israel longed to go back there to the flesh pots of Egypt, as Christians sometimes long back to their worldly lusts )
Jerusalem is the symbol for those who are in Christ. Jerusalem are God's people and they are in Christ. So symbolically Jesus could not be crucified IN Jerusalem , but needed to suffer and die outside (in "Babylon") where salvation is needed.

When we are able to see this truth, we then can also understand that the two witnesses will be walking in the "great city".( We can see, if we look up "great city" in the book of Revelation, that it always refers to Babylon). By now we understand Babylon to represent , not the physical city Babylon, but the spiritual "city" Babylon, the opposite to the New Jerusalem. In other words, Babylon speaks of those who are in the world. Babylon represents the unsaved masses on this planet.

We see that Jesus was indeed crucified outside the city. Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate. We see that this was shown forth also in the Old Testament where the sacrifice also happened outside the camp :Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned without the camp.

Jerusalem is used as the symbol for what is holy
Babylon is used as the symbol for what is unholy.(So is Sodom and so too Egypt)

That which is sinful (Babylon) needed the sacrifice. So that is why Jesus was not crucified IN Jerusalem, but outside the gate (in spiritual Babylon)

 

[(THE)]

The Revelation events spell out Jerusalem for the great apostasy events. And since we're told at the end of Rev.17 that the Babylon harlot is "a great city", that's specific.

I agree Proverbs 7 is speaking of wisdom as a lady compared to the spiritual harlot, which is the ways of this world through Satan's rebellion against all good doctrine. But that is a metaphor that can be applied to all the pagan beast kingdoms of history.

In Rev.11 we're given that kind of comparison when Jerusalem where our Lord Jesus was crucified, is compared spiritually to Sodom and Egypt. We're shown it's there in Jerusalem that God's "two witnesses" will appear and be murdered by the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan).

An interesting fact is that Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. In metaphor this would have placed Him in spiritual "Babylon" (the great city) Babylon in metaphor is also seen in Sodom and the Old Testament use of Egypt is the same. They all speak of the world without God. They also symbolize "flesh" (Israel longed to go back there to the flesh pots of Egypt, as Christians sometimes long back to their worldly lusts )
Jerusalem is the symbol for those who are in Christ. Jerusalem are God's people and they are in Christ. So symbolically Jesus could not be crucified IN Jerusalem , but needed to suffer and die outside (in "Babylon") where salvation is needed.

I dont get it,,,,,,,,,,

YOur saying ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus wasnt crucified in Jerusalem because,,,,because salvation is needed outside Jerusalem...........Ok WOW :headbomb

 

[Vince]

I'm surprised at what a good case some folks have made for saying that the great harlot is Jerusalem. But Jerusalem in not built on seven hills. It is surrounded by seven hills, or 26 hills, or every hill in the world, but it is not built on seven hills.

At the time John wrote Revelations, Rome really did rule over all the kings of the Roman world, including Israel, but Jerusalem never did that. However, the great whore does not appear as such until after the Rapture, during the Tribulation.

Jerusalem is not drunk with the blood of the saints. Most of the early Christians got along with the Jews, especially after Saul accepted Christ. Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which the Encyclopedia Britannica has labeled as accurate, shows that the Catholic Church killed far more Christians than the Romans did. However, atheists have killed far more Christians that the Catholics ever did.

It is possible that the great harlot is the final apostate church, ruled by the Antichrist, that will be formed by merging all the world's religions.

 

[klight]

read Hebrews it says why he had to die outside the city as the sacrifice. God's plan is perfect

 

[Vic C.]

Actually Vince, from a strictly Biblical perspective, it cannot be anything else than Jerusalem (and it's inhabitants).

Jerusalem indeed did sit upon (surrounded by) seven hills and I have shown that already. I can name them if you'd like. The Bible doesn't actually say built on, but that's just wordplay anyway. Rome may also sit upon seven hills, but so what? Our gripe wouldn't be with Rome anyway, but with the inhabitants of the VAtican Coty, wich is situated outside the d

At the time John wrote Revelations, Rome really did rule over all the kings of the Roman world, including Israel, but Jerusalem never did that. However, the great whore does not appear as such until after the Rapture, during the Tribulation.

That's purely a matter of position and interpretation. The Bible is clear throughout that Jerusalem and it's people indeed did play the harlot; hundreds and hundreds of years before any notion of a rapture and "tribulation". Revelation is so steep in OT imagery and prophecy it's tough to ignore.

Jerusalem in not drunk with the blood of the saints. Most of the early Christians got along with the Jews, especially after Saul accepted Christ....

It certainly was! Jesus Himself pointed that out to them:

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
Acts 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Acts 12:3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also.

They conspired to kill Paul.

Acts 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Lets not forget Jesus and John the Baptist and all the other Apostles and believers who had died for which they too were also responsible.

 

[researcher]

And the chief priests ordered Saul to imprison and kill many Christians too, so he did.

Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

No one knows how many they killed. But according to Saul(Paul) it was a lot! lol :o

 

[Vic C.]

I need to dig up my list of OT passages that refer to them being a whore or harlot and the references to the scarlet and purple and precious stones and how they prostituted themselves (and their faith) while in Babylon captivity.

 

[researcher]

I need to dig up my list of OT passages that refer to them being a whore or harlot and the references to the scarlet and purple and precious stones and how they prostituted themselves (and their faith) while in Babylon captivity.

Here's some whore/harlot stuff, etc.

Double Destruction for Jerusalem

Rev 18:6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double.

Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem; and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she hath received of Jehovah's hand double for all her sins.

Jer 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double, because they have polluted my land with the carcasses of their detestable things, and have filled mine inheritance with their abominations.

Jer 17:18 Let them be put to shame that persecute me, but let not me be put to shame; let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed; bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.

Whore/Harlot/Adulteress

Jer 13:27 I have seen thine abominations, even thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, on the hills in the field. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! thou wilt not be made clean; how long shall it yet be?

Jer 7:29 Cut off thy hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on the bare heights; for Jehovah hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.

Jer 23:14 In the prophets of Jerusalem also I have seen a horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies; and they strengthen the hands of evil-doers, so that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them become unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become a harlot! she that was full of justice! righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

Lam 1:1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! She is become as a widow, that was great among the nations! She that was a princess among the provinces is become tributary!

Eze 22:2 And thou, son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? then cause her to know all her abominations.

Hos 4:12 My people ask counsel at their stock, and their staff declareth unto them; for the spirit of whoredom hath caused them to err, and they have played the harlot, departing from under their God.
Hos 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me; for now, O Ephraim, thou hast played the harlot, Israel is defiled.
Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly.
Hos 9:1 Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, like the peoples; for thou hast played the harlot, departing from thy God; thou hast loved hire upon every grain-floor.

Eze 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations;
Eze 16:35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of Jehovah:
Eze 16:36 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness uncovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers; and because of all the idols of thy abominations, and for the blood of thy children, that thou didst give unto them;
Eze 16:37 therefore behold, I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them against thee on every side, and will uncover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.
Eze 16:38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will bring upon thee the blood of wrath and jealousy.
Eze 16:39 I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thy vaulted place, and break down thy lofty places; and they shall strip thee of thy clothes, and take thy fair jewels; and they shall leave thee naked and bare.
Eze 16:40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.
Eze 16:41 And they shall burn thy houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women; and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou shalt also give no hire any more.
Eze 16:43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast raged against me in all these things; therefore, behold, I also will bring thy way upon thy head, saith the Lord Jehovah: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness with all thine abominations.

Eze 23:3 and they played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there were their breasts pressed, and there was handled the bosom of their virginity.

Isa 57:3 But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the harlot.

Hos 1:2 When Jehovah spake at the first by Hosea, Jehovah said unto Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredom and children of whoredom; for the land doth commit great whoredom, departing from Jehovah.
2Ch 21:13 but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot, like as the house of Ahab did, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, who were better than thyself:
Deu 31:16 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that the land was polluted, and she committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Eze 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations;
Eze 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the nations for thy beauty; for it was perfect, through my majesty which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Eze 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become a harlot! she that was full of justice! righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

 

[Vince]

Ouch! When I said that Jerusalem wasn't drunk with the blood of the saints, my friend Vic C. posted Scripture about Jerusalem killing many Old testament saints. Good research, Vic.

 

[Cornelius]

The Revelation events spell out Jerusalem for the great apostasy events. And since we're told at the end of Rev.17 that the Babylon harlot is "a great city", that's specific.

I agree Proverbs 7 is speaking of wisdom as a lady compared to the spiritual harlot, which is the ways of this world through Satan's rebellion against all good doctrine. But that is a metaphor that can be applied to all the pagan beast kingdoms of history.

In Rev.11 we're given that kind of comparison when Jerusalem where our Lord Jesus was crucified, is compared spiritually to Sodom and Egypt. We're shown it's there in Jerusalem that God's "two witnesses" will appear and be murdered by the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan).

An interesting fact is that Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. In metaphor this would have placed Him in spiritual "Babylon" (the great city) Babylon in metaphor is also seen in Sodom and the Old Testament use of Egypt is the same. They all speak of the world without God. They also symbolize "flesh" (Israel longed to go back there to the flesh pots of Egypt, as Christians sometimes long back to their worldly lusts )
Jerusalem is the symbol for those who are in Christ. Jerusalem are God's people and they are in Christ. So symbolically Jesus could not be crucified IN Jerusalem , but needed to suffer and die outside (in "Babylon") where salvation is needed.

I dont get it,,,,,,,,,,

YOur saying ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus wasnt crucified in Jerusalem because,,,,because salvation is needed outside Jerusalem...........Ok WOW :headbomb

You have to try and see this as a parable See Jerusalem as representing ALL Gods people and see Babylon as ALL those who are not saved. Jesus came for the unrighteous (Babylon)

The Bible is written in layers. First we have the letter, or historical facts, and then , if God allows you to see, you will see that these historical facts also means something else too. They teach us about the spiritual realities too.

Jerusalem is a real place, but its also a symbol that stands for those who are the Body of Christ.
Babylon is a real place, but its also a symbol for everybody who is outside the Body of Christ.

Hope it makes more sense now !

C

 

[(THE)]

What physical city was Christ crucified in?????????

 

[Cornelius]

What physical city was Christ crucified in?????????

He was not crucified inside ANY physical city. In Biblical times a city was defined by its walls. You had to enter into the city through a gate. Jesus was crucified outside the city, outside the gate.


Hbr 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate.