What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

romans 9 study

When a person or persons are excluded outside of the covenant love of God,it is being hated by God, so much so , you are not even considered a people as we see in, #1 The holy spirits exclusion of acknowledging Ishmael as a son of abraham gen 22:



12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.



# 2 Esau finding no repentance, God gives repentance to those He loves..



heb 11:



17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears



God is never termed, the God of Esau, as His chosen brother has the great honor of God being called:



ps 20:


1The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;



#3 people who are outside of covenant promises are



not a people at all to God..



eph 2:



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:



This still applies today if you are not a elect , outside of the new covenant blessings, for only the spiritual israel benefit from..heb 8:



6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



That means , all who are not of this chosen spiritual israel are excluded as it was in ot times when the heathen gentile nations were excluded..



Now, look at vs rom 9 vs 14


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.



Thats right, paul expected this reaction from them whom he testified the truth to..



we know Paul was not a free willer , and we know what he taught went against the freewill philosophy by the very objection he is prepared to meet with..

If this is the case says the humanist, is not their unrighteousness with God ?


Note: depraved human nature has not changed since the days of Paul in negative reaction to the truth of God..



also, we must reckon that Paul gave the truth of unconditional election to all he had opportunity to, regardless if they were converted or not. He must have, because it seems he was ready for the response of natural thinking men.

Which claim God is unrighteous and shows respect of persons, when this truth is testified to. So I disagree with those who say unconditional election should not be spoken of to the unconverted. Apparently Paul spoke often of it to all. which agrees with acts 28:


30And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.



Unconditional election is a gospel of the kingdom truth , and paul taught all that came in unto him, no doubt many came out of curiosity and just wanted to hear what this man was talking about, but paul was faithful and held back nothing for the fear of man..



acts 20:


20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnessed in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.



so in conclusion this section gives us more proof that paul is speaking about individual salvation because of the response he anticiaptes as God being unfair if unconditional election is true without regard to the individuals persons of good or evil as just illustrated in vs 10-14
 
God's purpose in election.. the ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER..

Even though Romans 9-11 is within the context of the nation of Israel, and ultimately warns Christians of being ignorant of the mystery pertaining to Israel, perhaps there is something which can be 'applied' to the individual with respect to the "Elder serving the younger"..

A Christian has a dual nature.. they have their old Adamic nature according to the flesh and which comes FIRST.. AND they have the SPIRIT of Christ living within their earthen vessel as well, which comes AFTERWARDS..

So WHO does the Christian SERVE..?

Is it their OLD MAN who was born first naturally through the FLESH.. (the OLDER/ELDER), or is it Christ in us who was born afterwards by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.. (the younger)..

Simple question isn't it..
 
So we see from our study so far of romans 9, that paul is dispeling the Ideal that the national jews have been foresaken and Gods promises to them nullified. Paul teaches that:



#1 That the salvaic promises were not for national israel in the first place, but spiritual Israel..9:6



#2, then he Illustrates that not all of Abrahams descendents were heirs of promise by the story of Isaac vs 7-9



#3, he continues his teaching, that not all of Isaacs children are included in the covenant promises with Jacob and Esau vs10-13



#4, vs 14 Paul anticipates the humanistic response, knowing that what he teaches gives the sense that God chooses who He wants to have salvation, regardless of the actions and deeds of men or ethnicity bloodline. hence making it appear that God is unfair, so you know paul is teaching a Calvinistic view point about unconditional election and not the popular freewill Arminian viewpoint which is anti scriptural..



Now lets look at how Paul meets with this humanistic thought of God being unrighteous..vs 15-18



15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



He answers by referring back to a declaration God made years ago to moses,when moses asked or inquired about seeing Gods Glory..ex 33:



17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.



19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.



Gods respond was the declaration of His Great I AM personage in Stating That He is absolutely sovereign in and of Himself, and He will Dispense of His graciousness [grace] and mercy on whomever He will..



This is Gods Glory , His absolute prerogative to do as He pleases. His Godhood is His Glory.. No one has a right to expect or have any claims on Gods grace or mercy..



Gods Glory is His Indisputable sovereignty over all His creation. doing whatever he pleases..



dan 4:



35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?



ps 115:



3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



God given faith bows to this revelation of Almightiness..heb 11:



6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


So then salvation or favor with God is not because of vs 16, who wills it, who earns it, who puts forth an effort to get it, but solely on Gods Absolute prerogative on whether or not He wants to be merciful to an individual..



notice vs 17 He uses pharaoh as an example as to one God in His purpose for this man, not to show mercy to, but in fact one to whom He chooses to show His power and wrath upon.



And let me say this dear reader, you could be one as pharoah was , that is one who God has raised up to be an example of His wrath..



God showed His power in hardening pharaohs heart..



Lets look at some scriptures..



ex 4:



21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.



Gods power hardened pharaohs heart.. Notice the words I will [ Gods Sovereignty, Glory]



It does no good reader to say that pharoah hardened his own heart as in ex 8:



15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite; he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



because he hardened his own heart because God had decreed that his heart be hardened as the Lord said..



Note: We do Just as God decrees for us to do..
 
Eventide said:
There's no such thing as 'spiritual Israel' in the scriptures.
Click to expand...

Hi Eventide.

Israel demarcates itself as both physical and spiritual. This is why a moabite such as Ruth can become part of Israel. Ruth was not considered anything less than an Israelite.

What I believe we have to keep in mind, is that the spiritual Israel was visible through National Israel, for as Jesus said to the woman at the well, "Salvation is from the Jews".
 
It's a simple biblical fact accdording to John 7.. in that the SPIRIT had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.. and add to this the biblical fact that Joel speaks of God pouring out His Spirit upon ALL flesh in the last days, and we know this is what happened at Pentecost..

In the OT the prophets recorded the word of God through the Spirit.. although the Spirit was not given to all people.. hence... there's no such thing as spiritual Israel..
 
StoveBolts said:
Hi Eventide.

Israel demarcates itself as both physical and spiritual. This is why a moabite such as Ruth can become part of Israel. Ruth was not considered anything less than an Israelite.
Click to expand...

Explain how that's the case in light of the post which I just wrote.. before this one.
 
Eventide said:
Explain how that's the case in light of the post which I just wrote.. before this one.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you're saying that the Holy Spirit wasn't around prior to the crucifixion of Jesus. Rest assured, the Spirit was very active within National Israel for it was through the Holy Spirit which the prophets, yes, even Isaiah, Jeremiah and Joel spoke. It was also through the Holy Spirit that allowed the Urim to be read.

With the resurrection of Christ, that same spirit is accessible to all who come to the waters, and not simply those of National Isreal.

Hope that helps you understand how I'm seeing this.

Take care.
 
StoveBolts said:
It sounds like you're saying that the Holy Spirit wasn't around prior to the crucifixion of Jesus. Rest assured, the Spirit was very active within National Israel for it was through the Holy Spirit which the prophets, yes, even Isaiah, Jeremiah and Joel spoke. It was also through the Holy Spirit that allowed the Urim to be read.
Click to expand...

That's the way I see it.. that PROPHETS recorded the word of God by the SPIRIT, although as John explains.. the SPIRIT was not yet given (to all) because Jesus was not yet glorified.. and we know that this changed at Pentecost when the promise of the Father (Holy Spirit) was SENT...

With the resurrection of Christ, that same spirit is accessible to all who come to the waters, and not simply those of National Isreal.
Click to expand...

Where I would disagree is in any claim that suggests all Israel already had the Spirit... because the Father didn't send the promised Comforter, and pour out His Spirit upon all flesh until after Jesus was glorified and ascended into Heaven.
 
In addition to this.. there's no place in the scriptures where we hear the term 'spiritual Israel'.. and that's why I say that there's no such thing (in the scriptures) as spiritual Israel.
 
Eventide said:
That's the way I see it.. that PROPHETS recorded the word of God by the SPIRIT, although as John explains.. the SPIRIT was not yet given (to all) because Jesus was not yet glorified.. and we know that this changed at Pentecost when the promise of the Father (Holy Spirit) was SENT...
Click to expand...

Ohh the prophets did much more than just record the word of God, they spoke it! But not only that, they healed the sick, raised the dead, brought water out of rocks and caused iron to float on water just to mention a few!

The key word, which you've put in parenthesis is (to all). All being the Gentiles as Isaiah and Eziekiel and even Joel considered outside National Israel.



Eventide said:
Where I would disagree is in any claim that suggests all Israel already had the Spirit... because the Father didn't send the promised Comforter, and pour out His Spirit upon all flesh until after Jesus was glorified and ascended into Heaven.
Click to expand...

And that is exactly what I believe Paul is making a point of. Just cause your part of National Isreal, don't make ya part of the Spiritual Israel... I seem to recall Jesus, somewhere saying to a group that they were from their father the Devil, when they staked claim of being son's of Abraham.

Again, the All Flesh refers to the New Covenant to which Joel spoke of, and to which Hosea says later in vs. 25, which is affirmed by what Jeremiah wrote in chapter 31 and Eziekiel also wrote in many ways in various portions.
 
Eventide said:
In addition to this.. there's no place in the scriptures where we hear the term 'spiritual Israel'.. and that's why I say that there's no such thing (in the scriptures) as spiritual Israel.
Click to expand...

If scripture was a rule book that we just had to read and obey without thought it would have been written much differently.

John 3:8 The nooma bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the nooma. :)

Seems that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that there are those born of the spirit.. Yet Jesus aint dead yet, nor has he been resurrected.
 
StoveBolts said:
Ohh the prophets did much more than just record the word of God, they spoke it! But not only that, they healed the sick, raised the dead, brought water out of rocks and caused iron to float on water just to mention a few!
Click to expand...

Of course, and I haven't suggested that this is not the case, but rather that this is the case FOR the prophets, and not for all Israelites... if all the Israelites already had the Spirit, then there would have been no need for the Father to send it upon the Israelites at Pentecost... because they were ALL JEWS ! The gospel had not yet gone out to the Gentiles.

The key word, which you've put in parenthesis is (to all). All being the Gentiles as Isaiah and Eziekiel and even Joel considered outside National Israel.
Click to expand...

Not only the Gentiles, but even the Israelites who were NOT prophets..

And that is exactly what I believe Paul is making a point of. Just cause your part of National Isreal, don't make ya part of the Spiritual Israel... I seem to recall Jesus, somewhere saying to a group that they were from their father the Devil, when they staked claim of being son's of Abraham.
Click to expand...

Again, there is no such thing as Spiritual Israel in the scriptures.. and just because a person was an Israelite that didn't mean that they were a part of the Israel of God.. like the Pharisees for example.. certainly Israelites although most were not justified by faith... they thought that they were on the right path according to the Law of Moses which was in effect at the time.. so they were not the Israel of God.. those justified by faith in the promises of God.

Again, the All Flesh refers to the New Covenant to which Joel spoke of, and to which Hosea says later in vs. 25, which is affirmed by what Jeremiah wrote in chapter 31 and Eziekiel also wrote in many ways in various portions.
Click to expand...

Then again, why would the Israelites in Jerusalem during Pentecost need the Spirit of God if they already had it.. ?
 
even:


there's no place in the scriptures where we hear the term 'spiritual Israel'..
Click to expand...

So the bible still Teaches it. There is a Spiritual Seed of Abraham gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This must be Spiritual, because otherwise, gentiles could not be the physical seed of Abraham.

And the seed of Abraham is Israel Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

So if there is a Spiritual Seed of Abraham that belongs to Christ, rather jew or gentile, then there is a Spiritual Israel that belongs to Christ rather jew or gentile..
 
StoveBolts said:
If scripture was a rule book that we just had to read and obey without thought it would have been written much differently.

John 3:8 The nooma bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the nooma. :)

Seems that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that there are those born of the spirit.. Yet Jesus aint dead yet, nor has he been resurrected.
Click to expand...

I think that Jesus was telling him of something completely new... because He says "If I have told you earthly things and ye have believed not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things"..

Israel is an earthly entity (nation) with earthly ordinances... the church of God has its citizenship in heaven.. two distinct entities in scripture. The church of God is being built upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of the living God... obviously not possible before Christ was manifest in the flesh..

But God hasn't forgotten all the OT patriarchs who are justified by faith in His promises... and He will ultimately turn ungodliness from Jacob (Israel) in that Day... when the Deliverer shall come from Sion... we know that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and then everything will turn again to Israel..
 
Eventide said:
It's a simple biblical fact accdording to John 7.. in that the SPIRIT had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.. and add to this the biblical fact that Joel speaks of God pouring out His Spirit upon ALL flesh in the last days, and we know this is what happened at Pentecost..

In the OT the prophets recorded the word of God through the Spirit.. although the Spirit was not given to all people.. hence... there's no such thing as spiritual Israel..
Click to expand...

Isaac was born after the Spirit..gal 4:


29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him[Isaac] that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul was then speaking as one born after the same Spirit as well as other believers.

In Fact, believers [born again] are said to be as Isaac was Children of promise..

gal 4:
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Because paul saw their Faith, and Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

No Spirit, No Faith period, does not matter what time of history..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top