romans 9 study

[Eventide]

Did you read my lengthy post - it shows that Paul does not operate as per your expectations.

I enjoy your posts Drew, and I especially liked how you say that Paul goes to great lengths to show that there is no partiality with respect to being an Isrealite because they're justified the same way we are, by faith and that Calvinism has no context here where it might seem at first glance that it does.. Etc

As for national Israel being the primary context of Rom 9-11, I don't see how it can be missed, including the warning to not be ignorant of what has happened to Israel.

 

[Elijah674]

Israel becomes the Trap!

Matt.4

[1] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
[2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
[3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
[4] But he answered and said, [It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.] (and where is that found? Deut. 8:3's OT)

And 2 Tim. 3
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which [are able to make [thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.]
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(and of the last period of the reformation, what church has changed in the least degree from where they started from?? Rev. 17:1-5. And here we see some teaching that Old Israel as a fold will be restored. Lets see if the following verses have any bearing on that? But this deception will be satan's great counterfeit! You just watch/um! 2 Thess. 2:9-11)

Psalms 69

[16] Hear me, O LORD; for thy lovingkindness is good: turn unto me according to the multitude of thy tender mercies.
[17] And hide not thy face from thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily.

[18] Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies.
(not My will, but thy will be done!)

[19] Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.
[20] Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and [I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.]
(All had abandoned Christ!)

[21] They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
(none other but Christ, huh? But John 1:11 says that He came to His [OWN] and His own received Him not! Notice the next verse here below? The Church is the place that one was & is to get Fed Matt. 4:4 the Word of God, right? this is the set TABLE, but notice...)


[22] Let their table become a snare before them: and that [which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.]

(Did you get that? To stay in their membership had them trapped! Compare John 12:42-43 + Rev. 18:4)

[23] Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
[24] Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
[25] Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
(see Matt. 23:38)

[26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
[27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
[28] Let them [be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.]

OK: Old Virgin in doctrine Israel became DESOLATE OF CHRIST. They as a Nation had their Rev. 2:5 Candlestick REMOVED. They had never accepted the Christ of their Salvation to begin with as a Nation.

But make NO MISTAKE the Acts 2 starting point was made up of the REMNANT of Old Israel! Matt. 10:5-6 on. And after the 1000 years, Christ comes again with all of the saved ones, Heavenly Zion will come & take its promised place. And just before Christ comes again at the beginning of the 1000 years?? satan will have his field day with old Israel. And most of all humanity it seems are already set up for that time period!

--Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Absolutely.. Israel means Israel.. the church means the church.. that's why they have different names.. just as GENTILE always means GENTILE.. which is all nations except Israel..

I would venture to say that there are none of us here who have come to understand what Paul is saying that have not also wrestled with it, just as you.

So please do not think anyone is saying anything negative against you as we all can sympathize with the struggle involved in the beginning.

Many (if not all) new points we learn are like giving birth and does not come without its travail.

None of us are an exception to that but accept maybe with regard to a few things we have learned.

Please just be willing to look and honestly consider. That is all anyone asks, and that out of love.

 

[Eventide]

Did you read my lengthy post - it shows that Paul does not operate as per your expectations. In summary, we have Paul clearly understanding that Abraham is a father in two senses:

1. He is father of national Israel;
2. He is father of "true" Israel - the Jew + Gentile family of faith.

You muzzle Paul when you impose such rigid interpretive schemes - insisting that "Israel" must always denote the nation of Israel.

What you refer to as the true Israel is what I see the scriptures refer to as the Israel of God, those OT saints who were justified by faith long before Jesus of Nazareth was born into the world.. They're not members of the church of God (the Lamb's wife) because it didn't exist... It's built exclusively upon confessing Jesus as Lord and Christ.. It's an entirely different entity than Israel which was under the Law of Moses... Yet both are still justified by faith.

Once the distinction is made, the scriptures are amazingly and seemingly perfectly aligned.. We can see thematically in the OT stories showing us the details of Israels blindness and ultimate restoration in Him.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... In that order

 

[Eventide]

I would venture to say that there are none of us here who have come to understand what Paul is saying that have not also wrestled with it, just as you.

So please do not think anyone is saying anything negative against you as we all can sympathize with the struggle involved in the beginning.

Many (if not all) new points we learn are like giving birth and does not come without its travail.

None of us are an exception to that but accept maybe with regard to a few things we have learned.

Please just be willing to look and honestly consider. That is all anyone asks, and that out of love.

I am, I like reading about these things.. and imo we probably haven't even scratched the surface of the limitless and powerful voice of God in the holy scriptures.

 

[Who Says]

I am, I like reading about these things.. and imo we probably haven't even scratched the surface of the limitless and powerful voice of God in the holy scriptures.

That I completely agree with.

And I am glad for it as it allows joyful expectation of learning more facinating things ahead.

 

[savedbygrace57]

More on Romans 9 -



For those who are familiar with the book of romans, it can be perceived that chapters 9-11 are unified, and were written by the Apostle to handle what appeared to be a problem with the unbelief of many ethnic jews, in the Lord Jesus Christ. The first eight chapters had formed the hope of the believer and the trustworthiness of God's Love and promises [rom 8:28ff].

However this did not appear the case with many of Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh, in that God made promises to the Fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their seed, which seemed to be failing, and the entire nation [except for a remnant] was left in unbelief rom 11:

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

So in light of this seeming contradiction or failure in God's promises to the Fathers, is their really certainty for the believer ? This is the problem paul seeks to rectify in chapters 9-11.

Now is paul teaching some non salvaic corporate election to historical roles or individual election to eternal life in this chapter 9.

Those who contend for the corporate view are merely attempting to avoid the obvious teaching of scripture by the apostle of the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation [Gospel doctrines within the counsel of God acts 20:24-27] in this chapter, by stating that paul is not speaking about salvation in the context or even individuals,which is absurd. But there are others who understand aright that paul is teaching about individual salvation, unconditional election and reprobation.

In light of this problem, lets remember in mind, that Paul denies anyone of God's promises being failed to Abrahams seed, for He says this in rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You see that ? Thats vital in understanding the message of Paul in this section..What did the election obtain ?

 

[Eventide]

Those who contend for the corporate view are merely attempting to avoid the obvious teaching of scripture by the apostle of the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation [Gospel doctrines within the counsel of God acts 20:24-27] in this chapter, by stating that paul is not speaking about salvation in the context or even individuals,which is absurd. But there are others who understand aright that paul is teaching about individual salvation, unconditional election and reprobation.

Amazing that the Apostle to the Gentiles woud go to great lengths in teaching us that the just shall live by faith (an obvious condition), and that all men in Adam (Jew and Gentile alike) are under condemnation and yet justified freely in Christ.. and then change all that in Romans 9 and teach that it's completely unconditional..

 

[savedbygrace57]

More on Romans 9



The opponents for the corporate view point to some OT scriptures which paul uses for His Teaching. There reasoning is because the context of which these scriptures are taken, may not be about salvation or individual salvation, but nations, especially vs 12-13. Now though context is important of which the verses came out in the OT, to determine what the OT writer meant, nevertheless its even more important to discern how paul applies the verses in the context of his present theme and teaching in rom 9. Paul nor any other inspired writer must use scripture references in the same manner as the OT writer did. Its vital to realize how that the Apostles did use OT historical accounts as types and allegorical to the NT spiritual realities unto salvation. They saw Abraham's History as having application to New Test Salvation see Gal 3:29. If we were to go back and read in gen the historical account of Hagar and Ishmael, we would have never figured it to have the allegorical salvaic meaning that paul applies to it in Gal 4. And let us not forget that this Apostle was chosen by Christ for a special work and equipped him for the same, gave him to understand the OT scriptures, the way the should be, and so paul writes 2 tim 3:


16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Now Paul did just that, He showed and used OT scripture, the historical account of Hagar and Ishmael and formulated a doctrine, a teaching, a instruction in righteousness. It was also a reproof and correction to the judaizing jews as well..

 

[Drew]

Now is paul teaching some non salvaic corporate election to historical roles or individual election to eternal life in this chapter 9.

Those who contend for the corporate view are merely attempting to avoid the obvious teaching of scripture by the apostle of the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation [Gospel doctrines within the counsel of God acts 20:24-27] in this chapter, by stating that paul is not speaking about salvation in the context or even individuals,which is absurd. But there are others who understand aright that paul is teaching about individual salvation, unconditional election and reprobation.

You make no actual argument - you merely assert that people who hold a view different from yours are mistaken.

 

[Drew]

Paul nor any other inspired writer must use scripture references in the same manner as the OT writer did.

Where do you get this rather odd exegetical principle from? I agree that a New Testament writer (like Paul) is not forced to always use OT allusions in exactly the same way they are used in the OT. But there certainly is no "rule" that Paul cannot use OT allusions "in the same manner as the OT writer did".

And I suggest that this is what is going on in Romans 9 with respect to the potter metaphor. Although those who hold your view will not often accept this, virtually all OT uses of the potter metaphor have God in the role of the potter and national Israel in the role of the pot. And since there is ample reason to think that the basic theme of Romans 9 is how God has used Israel in the grand plan of redemption, it is very natural and appropriate to see the "vessels of destruction" as an allusion to national Israel, not as a reference to all those, Jew or Gentile, who were pre-destined to eternal loss.

There are many arguments here against the standard "Calvinist" take on Romans 9 - I could, and possibly will, go on for days expressing them.

But one of them is this: In a chapter that is so clearly about how God has used Israel in some mysterious manner to benefit both Jews and Gentiles, it makes no sense to find an abstract treatment of a theology of personal election that has no Israel-specificity whatsoever. This chapter is about Israel, first and foremost. It opens with a clear allusion to national Israel:

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel

...and it closes with another clear statement about Israel:

As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame

Now given this, what would one reasonably expect a "vessel of destruction" to be? Clearly a hardened Israelite.

 

[savedbygrace57]

examining rom 9

Lets take a look at 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Lets cp to rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

These verses seem to be similar, does paul have salvation in mind ?

 

[bleitzel]

Paul has a lot of things in mind, salvation is one of them. But even in these two quotes there is no doctrine of individual election. Look very closely at them. Nowhere is Paul saying that He chose some and not others. Paul's message in Romans 9, as well as Ephesians, Galatians. et. al., is that before, the Jews thought they were chosen and the Gentiles were not (a doctrine of God electing some an not others) but this teaching was totally and radically incorrect (just as it is today for those who are trying to propogate it but with new protagonists and antagonists.) Instead, Paul is teaching that God said that He chose the Jews before, now He's saying that He has also chosen the Gentiles, through Christ. All are chosen to be in God's family, through their own faith. There is no one who is predestined NOT to be in God's family. There is NO unchosen group.

 

[savedbygrace57]

blei:

But even in these two quotes there is no doctrine of individual election

.

None that you can see..

 

[bleitzel]

Apparently

 

[Eventide]

What I think that we can see is that Calvinism tries to support their unbiblical doctrine of unconditional election from Romans 9 alone.. not much depth there.. a few isolated verses and presto.. all the sudden men are preaching unconditional election of condemned men.

 

[childeye]

What I think that we can see is that Calvinism tries to support their unbiblical doctrine of unconditional election from Romans 9 alone.. not much depth there.. a few isolated verses and presto.. all the sudden men are preaching unconditional election of condemned men.

I am not knowledgable regarding Calvin or Arminian or whatever. Romans 9 clearly indicates God can make from the same clay anything He wants to. The point being that no one should think they're better than anyone else by their own efforts ambition, freewill, etc... Remember Satan's fall was vanity. And Romans 1 shows the same vanity in man that God is angry with.

 

[bleitzel]

I am not knowledgable regarding Calvin or Arminian or whatever. Romans 9 clearly indicates God can make from the same clay anything He wants to. The point being that no one should think they're better than anyone else by their own efforts ambition, freewill, etc... Remember Satan's fall was vanity. And Romans 1 shows the same vanity in man that God is angry with.

You're right Childeye, that is the point of Romans 9. However, some would like to add to that understanding that Paul is teaching that God has decided to predestine some for eternal life and some for eternal death. Sound unbeliveable? Look into Calvinism and Arminianism and you'll see what I mean. (By the way, they're both incorrect as far as I'm concerned.) And the truly sad part is that while most lay people who read the Bible would never walk away with such an understanding, most theologians are just the opposite. Most theologians are adamant that God did in fact predestine all mankind. In fact, Martin Luther said that the doctrine of predestination was the most important doctrine to the church. (paraphrasing of course.) The theologians just differ on how they think God did it.

But like I said, they're all wrong, God did not predestine one group of people for eternal blessings and one for eternal cursing. They're misinterpreting Paul in Romans and especially Ephesians and I'd love to reason it through with all of them.

 

[Eventide]

Romans 9 clearly indicates God can make from the same clay anything He wants to. The point being that no one should think they're better than anyone else by their own efforts ambition, freewill, etc... Remember Satan's fall was vanity. And Romans 1 shows the same vanity in man that God is angry with.

Let's talk about the clay for a second.. for some strange reason.. people think that their clay is not as condemned as the next man's clay... but Paul has ALREADY made it abundantly clear that ALL MEN IN ADAM are under the same condemnation.. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand..

Your clay (earthen vessel) is just as condemned as mine, and mine is just as condemned as the next guy.. that's why we're all dying..

But rather than see that simple biblical fact... people read Romans 9 and and are quick to say that it means God is choosing some and not others.. as if they're a vessel of mercy and that others are not..

It's crazy.. we're all vessels fit for destruction in ADAM.. the bible says that we're condemned already if we do not believe on Son of God.. and GOD used the very same lump of clay to show His mercy in those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ..

All in Adam condemned..

All in Christ justified freely..

 

[savedbygrace57]

ce:

Romans 9 clearly indicates God can make from the same clay anything He wants to.

Thats correct. The word make is the greek word see rom 9:21

poieō and one of its meanings is to ordain or to appoint.

The word clay is to denote man in his uncreated mass, as Adam was before God formed him from the dust of the ground.

The word dust as used in gen 2 for Adam being formed out of the dust of the ground is the hebrew word aphar:

dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish

a) dry or loose earth
b) debris
c) mortar
d) ore

mortar is a clay substance used for building walls in lev 14:

42And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house. see vs 45 too.

So Paul is saying, that God had the absolute right in the creation of man, to purpose some as vessels of wrath [ for their sins] and to purpose or appoint some as vessels of mercy for their sins.

Now mind you this is all in the context of why so many ethnic jews are not becoming believers in the Messiah, which appears to mean God's salvaic purpose for Israel has failed. Paul's argument is not all Israel [National] are Israel [Israel of God, children of promise] 9:6-8 Then He sets out to prove that supposition. For all men particularly in this case jews, have not been appointed to salvation through the Messiah. However the clay reference goes back to men in general, not nationality specifically, for in Adam was the representation of all nations and bloods acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood [Adam] all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Notice, He hath appointed the bounds of their habitations. Heaven and its Glory is noted as an habitation lk 16:9

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.