romans 9 study

[Prince]

Thank you, I'd rather speak according to the oracles of God and not the words of men.. and the oracles of God don't speak of spiritual Israel, nor do they confound the church of God with Israel.. men do those things.

Doy you believe gentile believers have been grafted into Israel?

If so how was this done, was it fone spiritually or physically??

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[Eventide]

Isaac was born after the Spirit..gal 4:


29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him[Isaac] that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul was then speaking as one born after the same Spirit as well as other believers.

In Fact, believers [born again] are said to be as Isaac was Children of promise..

gal 4:
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Because paul saw their Faith, and Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

No Spirit, No Faith period, does not matter what time of history..

Isaac was born miraculously by God after Sarah was beyond her child bearing age.. so I would agree.. although it doesn't speak for all Israelites... because as scripture plainly declares... the Spirit had not yet been given.

Would somebody like to answer the question as to WHY God sent the Spirit at Pentecost to the Israelites in Jerusalem.. if they already had it prior ? Doesn't make much sense does it.. of course not.. because again, the scriptures tell us that the Spirit had not yet been given.

So much for the Calvinistic idea that men were born of the Spirit before it was ever given by God.. but then again, you'll never convince a Calvinist otherwise.. because Calvin's word trumps the word of God every time.

 

[Eventide]

Doy you believe gentile believers have been grafted into Israel?

If so how was this done, was it fone spiritually or physically??

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

I think that this is a very common misunderstanding... ISRAEL has been temporarily cut off and they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. .. so the church is not in Israel, but rather IN CHRIST... Christ is the commonwealth of Israel... not Israel..

 

[Prince]

I think that this is a very common misunderstanding... ISRAEL has been temporarily cut off and they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. .. so the church is not in Israel, but rather IN CHRIST... Christ is the commonwealth of Israel... not Israel..

Israel cut off?

Who do you think Israel is?

 

[Eventide]

Israel cut off?

Who do you think Israel is?

The nation of Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in... I know.. a lot of people in Christendom ignore this when Paul warns Christians not to ignore it..

 

[Prince]

The nation of Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in... I know.. a lot of people in Christendom ignore this when Paul warns Christians not to ignore it..

The bible says blinded, i agree.. You said cut off, where does the bible say Israel was cut off

ISRAEL has been temporarily cut off

And who and where do you believe Israel is???

 

[Eventide]

The bible says blinded, i agree.. You said cut off, where does the bible say Israel was cut off

This is what you first mentioned from Romans 11, where you thought that the church was grafted into ISRAEL... remember ?

Do you see where that's wrong and that the church is IN CHRIST, and NOT in ISRAEL..?

The nation of Israel rejects Jesus of Nazareth til this day, and this ha been the case since they first rejected Christ and crucified Him according to the foreknowledge of God.. and this is why Paul was raised up, to bring the glorious gospel of Christ to the GENTILES, while Israel is cut off from the blessings of God.

And who and where do you believe Israel is???

Israel according to the scriptures is an earthly entity with many earthly ordinances.. it pertains to the nation and the twelve tribes which come from JACOB's sons.. the OT is full of stories pertaining to JACOB who became Israel and of the many ordinances which they performed in service to God.

Israel is a fascinating topic in the scriptures..

So what's your opinion... is it that the church is Israel.. ?

 

[reba]

The OT starts with the Spirit of God.


Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Num 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

Isaac was born miraculously by God after Sarah was beyond her child bearing age

Yes, and He was born after the Spirit.

 

[Eventide]

even:



Yes, and He was born after the Spirit.

SBG,

Since you seem to know everything.. maybe you can tell us why the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Israelites at Pentecost.. if they already had the Spirit..?

 

[childeye]

The OT starts with the Spirit of God.


Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Num 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

A very sucinct and direct use of scripture encompassing much. Nice post.

 

[childeye]

ce:



Thats correct. The word make is the greek word see rom 9:21

poieō and one of its meanings is to ordain or to appoint.

The word clay is to denote man in his uncreated mass, as Adam was before God formed him from the dust of the ground.

The word dust as used in gen 2 for Adam being formed out of the dust of the ground is the hebrew word aphar:

dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish

a) dry or loose earth
b) debris
c) mortar
d) ore

mortar is a clay substance used for building walls in lev 14:

42And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house. see vs 45 too.

So Paul is saying, that God had the absolute right in the creation of man, to purpose some as vessels of wrath [ for their sins] and to purpose or appoint some as vessels of mercy for their sins.

Now mind you this is all in the context of why so many ethnic jews are not becoming believers in the Messiah, which appears to mean God's salvaic purpose for Israel has failed. Paul's argument is not all Israel [National] are Israel [Israel of God, children of promise] 9:6-8 Then He sets out to prove that supposition. For all men particularly in this case jews, have not been appointed to salvation through the Messiah. However the clay reference goes back to men in general, not nationality specifically, for in Adam was the representation of all nations and bloods acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood [Adam] all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Notice, He hath appointed the bounds of their habitations. Heaven and its Glory is noted as an habitation lk 16:9

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

Pray for my slow mind, Saved by grace. I wish not to burden you with taking your time, but I am not sure if you are instructing me in something, or if you're bursting uncontrollably with Godly knowledge. I can't see how God couldn't appoint some to differing habitations if in fact He desires to show why we should esteem Him as God. Nonetheless men should not fear what God has appointed for their vessel, nor glory in it.

On a personal note, what did you ask for from God, that has made your lips a gusher of waters? Or are you operating at a different metabolic rate than the rest of us?

 

[childeye]

You're right Childeye, that is the point of Romans 9. However, some would like to add to that understanding that Paul is teaching that God has decided to predestine some for eternal life and some for eternal death. Sound unbeliveable? Look into Calvinism and Arminianism and you'll see what I mean. (By the way, they're both incorrect as far as I'm concerned.) And the truly sad part is that while most lay people who read the Bible would never walk away with such an understanding, most theologians are just the opposite. Most theologians are adamant that God did in fact predestine all mankind. In fact, Martin Luther said that the doctrine of predestination was the most important doctrine to the church. (paraphrasing of course.) The theologians just differ on how they think God did it.

But like I said, they're all wrong, God did not predestine one group of people for eternal blessings and one for eternal cursing. They're misinterpreting Paul in Romans and especially Ephesians and I'd love to reason it through with all of them.

If you found out that the earthly vessels God preordained for destruction contained nothing of substance, void of Love, an inevitable and perpetual corruption, would you still feel this way about those labeled eternally accursed? I'd be delighted to reason this with you.

 

[childeye]

Let's talk about the clay for a second.. for some strange reason.. people think that their clay is not as condemned as the next man's clay... but Paul has ALREADY made it abundantly clear that ALL MEN IN ADAM are under the same condemnation.. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand..

Your clay (earthen vessel) is just as condemned as mine, and mine is just as condemned as the next guy.. that's why we're all dying..

But rather than see that simple biblical fact... people read Romans 9 and and are quick to say that it means God is choosing some and not others.. as if they're a vessel of mercy and that others are not..

It's crazy.. we're all vessels fit for destruction in ADAM.. the bible says that we're condemned already if we do not believe on Son of God.. and GOD used the very same lump of clay to show His mercy in those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ..

All in Adam condemned..

All in Christ justified freely..

You make good and clear points eventide, and I love your take on the clay. I see you play guitar, also an artist? I think the theology of freewill is why people think their clay is better than others. I hope this does not cause you to be disturbed with me. I do believe in the freewill described by Jesus in John 8:32. I regard the other as Satanic. What other? The one that says we have the option to disobey God and live.

 

[Eventide]

You make good and clear points eventide, and I love your take on the clay. I see you play guitar, also an artist? I think the theology of freewill is why people think their clay is better than others. I hope this does not cause you to be disturbed with me. I do believe in the freewill described by Jesus in John 8:32. I regard the other as Satanic. What other? The one that says we have the option to disobey God and live.

If men do not have freewill in the sense that there's nothing which they can do about the message of the gospel.. which is repentance TOWARD God and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.. then this is all an exercise in vanity...

Man, the pinnacle of God's creation is reduced to nothing more than a robot who lives out the choices already predetermined for him...

IMO and experiences in life, this is nonsense.

 

[Eventide]

If you found out that the earthly vessels God preordained for destruction contained nothing of substance, void of Love, an inevitable and perpetual corruption, would you still feel this way about those labeled eternally accursed? I'd be delighted to reason this with you.

I think that this is what Paul thought of himself.. and said plainly that there was nothing good in his flesh, and that he fought with it to put off this body of death...

Do you think that you're good ? I'm asking a serious question because your comments here imply that you see yourself above that... it reminds me of the man who prayed and thanked God that he wasn't like the others..

Sounds harsh perhaps but I'm just trying to be 'real' here..

 

[Prince]

This is what you first mentioned from Romans 11, where you thought that the church was grafted into ISRAEL... remember ?

Do you see where that's wrong and that the church is IN CHRIST, and NOT in ISRAEL..?

The nation of Israel rejects Jesus of Nazareth til this day, and this ha been the case since they first rejected Christ and crucified Him according to the foreknowledge of God.. and this is why Paul was raised up, to bring the glorious gospel of Christ to the GENTILES, while Israel is cut off from the blessings of God.



Israel according to the scriptures is an earthly entity with many earthly ordinances.. it pertains to the nation and the twelve tribes which come from JACOB's sons.. the OT is full of stories pertaining to JACOB who became Israel and of the many ordinances which they performed in service to God.

Israel is a fascinating topic in the scriptures..

So what's your opinion... is it that the church is Israel.. ?

This is what you first mentioned from Romans 11, where you thought that the church was grafted into ISRAEL... remember ?

No the word of God says this lets review the scripture again - because the more you keep speaking from your own thoughts and accord the more I am going to present the word of God..

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, in as much as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

So Paul is about to teach the Gentiles. We will skip a couple of verses for time/space

Romans 11:16 "For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."


The root is Jesus Christ "root of Jessie"


Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

The wild olive tree are the gentiles, and the believing gentiles have been grafted into root (Christ)

The nation of Israel rejects Jesus of Nazareth til this day

And here we have it - you dont know who Israel is, this is why I asked you this earlier.

In the book of 1 kings the nation of Israel split

I Kings 12:19 "So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day."

I Kings 12:20 "And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only."

The tribe of Israel has now been split, you have 10 northern tribes led by Jeroboam and you have 2 other tribes "Benjamin and Judah"

Kings 12:23 " "Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the People, saying,"

After the 12 tribes split Israel (10 northern tribes) were captured by the Assyrians aroun 720 BC and the Jews (benjamin Judah) were captured by Nebuchadazzar Babylon.


When Israel left there captors they were scattered and became what we call today as the lost sheep


Matthew 15:2 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Israel scattered over the mountains and make up the the christians nations of today, but they have lost there identity so they call themselves gentiles unknowing that many of them are descendents of ancient Israel.

The nation of Israel rejects Jesus of Nazareth til this day

So when you say this its ever obvious you have no Idea who Israel is or where they are to this day.

and this ha been the case since they first rejected Christ and crucified Him according to the foreknowledge of God

ahh it would take to long to show all the errors in this, Israel didnt crucify Jesus those whom called themselves Jews but lie killed Christ.

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee

 

[Eventide]

Israel scattered over the mountains and make up the the christians nations of today, but they have lost there identity so they call themselves gentiles unknowing that many of them are descendents of ancient Israel.

You're just a mixed bag of things aren't you... first we have mormonism (not moron lol) ideology and now what's this.. I've heard of it before but can't recall what this belief is called..

Somebody help me out here.. lol..

 

[Prince]

You're just a mixed bag of things aren't you... first we have mormonism (not moron lol) ideology and now what's this.. I've heard of it before but can't recall what this belief is called..

Somebody help me out here.. lol..

I would be more then happy to show biblical and historical evidence of Israel Migration to the Americas.....

 

[Hitch]

Thats like ocean side property in Utah .