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romans 9 study

Eventide said:
IT doesn't hold much weight to say that you're bad after you've told me that you're good.. unless of course you actually believe that you're bad... who knows, you're talking out both sides of your mouth here.
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Let me ask you a question. Do you know what semantics are?
 
Note this great monarchs heart was in Gods Hand and as prov teaches prov 21:



1The king's heart[phoaroah] is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



but lets go back to God hardening pharaohs heart..



ex 7:3



3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.



ex 7:



13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 7:



14And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.





ex 7:


22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.





ex 8:


19Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 8:

32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.



ex 9:


7And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.



ex 912



12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.



ex 9

34And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.





ex 9 35



35And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.



ex 10:1

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

ex 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

10:27



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

ex 11 10



And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

ex 14 4



And I will harden Pharaoh's heart that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon his entire host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.





ex 14 8



And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.





ex 14 17



And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.



out of about 20 references of pharaohs heart being hardened, by Gods I will only 2 refer to pharaoh hardening his own heart and at least one of them says as the Lord said he would implying, did he have a choice in the matter ? No..



But yet false religionist will deny that God hardened pharaoh heart but first pharaoh hardened his own heart, that's incredible. And these be folk who say they believe the bible as the word of God..


But notice the last reference ex 14:17

As God being true to His word, He hardened pharoah heart right unto his destruction, along with his army.



note: hell is prepared for the devil and his angels...



Gods Glory and power was manifested in this monarchs destruction..



We witnessed the Irresistibleness of Gods Sovereign Power over the so called freewill of man, yeah right, pharaoh was like a puppet in Gods hand, as every other human being in this world..
 
Pizzaguy said:
Eventide is right here. The bible is clear on this one, and it's not just one verse, either, it's a major theme in the bible, both OT and NT.

I don't THINK he's beating you up, I think he's trying to get you to see the truth.

I know I"m not good. I'm a mess, even on my best day, during my best prayer, while doing my best work ---- I'm a shame to God. It's only His love and grace that gives me any hope.

Not saying that I don't try...
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So Pizza guy, do you think you are good for saying it's only God's mercy that gives hope or are you bad for saying that?
 
childeye said:
So Pizza guy, do you think you are good for saying it's only God's mercy that gives hope or are you bad for saying that?
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Neither, by saying that it's only God's mercy that gives us hope, I am merely speaking the truth.

As to where everybody went:
It's friday night, maybe some of us have a life and real friends to be with! (Not ME of course! ;) )

I'm doing laundry and waiting for the storms to come that will hopefully provide me with some overtime pay!
 
Pizzaguy said:
Neither, by saying that it's only God's mercy that gives us hope, I am merely speaking the truth.

As to where everybody went:
It's friday night, maybe some of us have a life and real friends to be with! (Not ME of course! ;) )

I'm doing laundry and waiting for the storms to come that will hopefully provide me with some overtime pay!
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I'm sorry to hear that. Are you good or bad for doing the laundry?
 
Eventide said:
No.. and you're the only one who was claiming to be good here.
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Read the record, I claimed God alone is good and said it was good to recognize that. Of course it was the Word of God in me that said God alone is good since He is Truth and not me, but you had to be ridiculous, and stand as an accuser no matter which way I went with the semantics of the word good.
Matthew 11:16-19 (King James Version)



16But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
 
childeye said:
Read the record, I claimed God alone is good and said it was good to recognize that. Of course it was the Word of God in me that said God alone is good since He is Truth and not me, but you had to be ridiculous, and stand as an accuser no matter which way I went with the semantics of the word good.
Matthew 11:16-19 (King James Version)
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Here's what is ridiculous imo childeye.. your original comment which I responded to..

childeye said:
If you found out that the earthly vessels God preordained for destruction contained nothing of substance, void of Love, an inevitable and perpetual corruption, would you still feel this way about those labeled eternally accursed? I'd be delighted to reason this with you.
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Evidently you think more highly of yourself.. and now you can't admit it.
 
Other scriptures about God hardened a mans heart in order to destroy him..



deut 2 30



30But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.





josh 11 20


20For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.



So Paul again demonstrates through scripture and pharaohs experience That God has a right to be merciful to whom he will and not only that to, Hardened whomever he will..


Each person reading this, has either been the object of Gods mercy or His hatred and hardening..

Another anticipated humanistic response to pauls obvious hard teaching of Gods absolute sovereignty over mens destinies,



note: vs 19

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?



Amen, isn't that the logical conclusion? Well God, if that's the real deal and that's How you work, then why find fault with men, you evidently made it so I cannot get to heaven, this is not fair God, I cant believe you are like this..


Notice pauls respond..vs 20,21:


20Nay but, O man,[Not O Nation] who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one[Man] vessel unto honour, and another[Man] unto dishonour?



Notice paul did not back down , and say you are right, that would make God unfair, everybody deserves a chance to be saved..



Nope not at all , but he says, who are you that repliest against God ?



You got your nerve fellow, God has every right to do with you or anyone else as He pleaseth, because He is God and created you..You belong to Him..

For God has total authority and the right to make you or me for any purpose He wants to..for we are as clay in His Hand and for His pleasure ..

Paul was not a compromiser, and didnt care if the truth offened someone, he just told it like it was..



vs 21, God has a right to make a person for honor and dishonor..I believe this refers to the day of judgement, lets look at a proof text..



dan 12:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,[honor] and some to shame and everlasting contempt.[dishonor]

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

God has designed each individual to meet with one or the other end..


Honor, life, immortality, to shine as the brightness of the firmament or dishonor and everlasting contempt..



There is no changing this purpose, we are either one or the other..By Gods set purpose and not mans freewill..

vs 22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God is Just, says paul..because the non elect were created by God to be punished for sin, their sin, that God forebeared with, and through Gods forbearance, God fitted them[ by His Hardening] for their deserved destruction..


The word fitted in the greek is



katartiðzw and it means:


to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete

to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair

to complete

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

to fit or frame for one's self, prepare

ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

But its in the passive voice, meaning the subject [the vessel of wrath] was recieving the action [ Gods hardening] Just as pharaoh, and consequently renders their destruction deserved as pharaoh's was deserved..


What a awesome God, one to be feared and worshipped..
 
Some argue that the following text from Romans 9 shows that Paul is focused on the matter of election of individuals to an eternal fate:

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

The argument runs along these lines: Since Paul is referring to individuals, he intends the reader to understand that the issue is the election of individuals.

Note that in the phrase "you will say to me then, Why does he still find fault", the "me" is Paul, the person making the argument. So the “me†pronoun would be singular even if Paul were making an argument about groups. The singularity of the “me†pronoun does not, therefore, tell us anything of relevance.

Now consider the “you†in this phrase. Is this a person who is protesting his pre-destination to loss? No it is not. It is instead Paul’s imaginary opponent in his debate – the person objecting to Paul’s point about the choices God makes. It cannot be assumed to be the person protesting his own pre-destination. It could be such a person, but it could equally well be a person who disputes a point that Paul is making about pre-destination of groups.

I grant that, in verse 20, Paul appeals to a singular model where Paul invites us to imagine a single person challenging God in respect to what has befallen him. This man is no longer Paul’s imagined opponent, but clearly one who God has pre-destined to something bad.

However, this does not make the case that Paul is talking about election of individuals. We know that he uses the singular to represent plurality in other contexts. In Romans 7, he does this very thing when he use the "I" and "me" construct to demonstrate the plight of Jews (plural) under Torah. So, the use of the singular here in the “o man†/ “me†of Romans 9 is not definitive.

I suggest that Paul uses the "O man" construct as a literary device to "personalize" the objection that corporate Israel will have to its treatment. Note how this is consonant with the Israel focus suggested by the first verses of the chapter. In order to make his point accessible to the reader, Paul "puts a face" on corporate Israel by representing her by a single man, just as in Romans 7 where the “I†represents Israel as a whole.

Note also the reference to moulding and the potter and recall that Old Testament precedent repeatedly has God moulding Israel. Paul is keenly aware of this and is leveraging that precedent.

Besides, consider this allusion, from earlier in the same basic argument:

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

Paul is quoting Exodus where the issue is God's showing mercy unto the Israelites as a group. If predestination of individuals is on Paul’s mind, why does he bring up an example of God being merciful to a group to make a point about election of individuals?

Furthermore, there is "group-level" election in the Jacob / Esau account where the Old Testament references make it clear that the election in view involves the Edomites (a group) being chosen by God to be sub-servient to the Israelites (another group).

Furthermore, consider the Isaiah 29text that Paul quotes from in verse 20:

The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.

14 Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD,
who do their work in darkness and think,
"Who sees us? Who will know?" 16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?

This is the very text from which the "o man" text is drawn – and clearly a pluralistic reading is intended
 
A word on Gods forbearance. Those who deny eternal Justification and even the OT saints Justification until after the cross, like to use this verse to justify their claims..



rom 3:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


They use this verse as to imply, that God was restraining Himself from dashing them [ the elect] to pieces until christ died on the cross, thats just plain silly.


God's forberance here is referring to the non elect and not the elect..


They say God tolerated the sins of David who gave us this psalm


103:

1Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;


Evidently David was mistaken, for God was forbearing with him..


10He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.


David must be hallucinating according to some calvinist, for david sins were still on record in Gods mind until christ dies..which was yet in the future at this point..


12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

again David, cannot be speaking truth regarding his transgressions , jesus christ has yet to die, so how can davids transgressions be removed as the east is to the west ? Oh maybe he said they will be moved in the future ? Oh no he uses the past tense, so far hath he removed..

vs 17

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;



How can the above be true if God had not already reckoned The blood of christ already in effect ? For it is only through the blood of the everlasting covenant that David could have this revealation..



heb 13:

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,



cp 2 sam 23:

5Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.



David had recieved knowledge that he was a partaker of the blood of christ..and His salvation..though it was a future event that would consummate all what he now enjoyed..
 
Eventide said:
Here's what is ridiculous imo childeye.. your original comment which I responded to..



Evidently you think more highly of yourself.. and now you can't admit it.
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My dear eventide, I am not a respector of men including myself. The quote you cite is as follows;

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by childeye
If you found out that the earthly vessels God preordained for destruction contained nothing of substance, void of Love, an inevitable and perpetual corruption, would you still feel this way about those labeled eternally accursed? I'd be delighted to reason this with you.

This is a hypothetical question submitting for consideration the prospect that God has the intention of ridding heaven and earth of all vanity so as to bring in the eternal Kingdom of God populated by a Holy people. In what way does this say I am better than others? You must be assuming that I think I am one that is chosen as a vessel that will eventually be one of those holy people. That is my hope, but it remains to be seen. These Holy people will be humble and honest is my assessment. Where have I bragged to you that I might receive correction?
 
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