romans 9 study

[Eventide]

The elect, the saved, know because of how we live our lives. That's the point of the book of James. Our works are proof of our salvation.

How about you... did God unconditionally choose you ?

 

[childeye]

Now the bible says plainly that God chose us in Christ (one condition) through belief of the truth (another condition) and sanctification of the Spirit..

Yes, yes, yes... we need to believe in the Christ and believe in the Truth. At least now I can understand what you are applying conditionally to. And so I whole heartedly agree with you in regards to how you applied the term.

But how you apply the term is not how Calvinists apply the term as I understand it. Therefore let's check our addition with subtraction. The way you applied the term conditionally means that in your mind "unconditionally" means you don't have to believe in Christ or the Truth to be chosen by God. Is that correct?

If it is, no wonder you hate so called Calvinism. So then, if you will find that no Calvinist would disagree with you if you explain the way you are using the term Conditionally, then you will see your division with them, and them, with you is over semantics.

For they are saying if I understand them, that God must give man the ability to believe in the Christ and receive the Truth. Now don't throw away what I have just said to you here in an impulsive reaction to defend the Truth from me. Receive me as you would want to be received. Consider what I've just said above with no pretense. Semantics are the tool of the devil, don't let him cause division between us through misunderstanding. Don't let him rule you, and i must not let him rule over me. And don't take that personally. If you wish, you can tell me "don't let the devil rule you". I will take it to heart as from someone who loves me.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, yes, yes... we need to believe in the Christ and believe in the Truth. At least now I can understand what you are applying conditionally to. And so I whole heartedly agree with you in regards to how you applied the term.

But how you apply the term is not how Calvinists apply the term as I understand it. Therefore let's check our addition with subtraction. The way you applied the term conditionally means that in your mind "unconditionally" means you don't have to believe in Christ or the Truth to be chosen by God. Is that correct?

If it is, no wonder you hate so called Calvinism. So then, if you will find that no Calvinist would disagree with you if you explain the way you are using the term Conditionally, then you will see your division with them, and them, with you is over semantics.

For they are saying if I understand them, that God must give man the ability to believe in the Christ and receive the Truth. Now don't throw away what I have just said to you here in an impulsive reaction to defend the Truth from me. Receive me as you would want to be received. Consider what I've just said above with no pretense. Semantics are the tool of the devil, don't let him cause division between us through misunderstanding. Don't let him rule you, and i must not let him rule over me. And don't take that personally. If you wish, you can tell me "don't let the devil rule you". I will take it to heart as from someone who loves me.

It doesn't sound like you understand unconditional election according to Calvinism.. because unconditional election claims that God chose certain individuals and then enables them to believe through irresistable grace.. there is no basis for God choosing them specifically.. and most would say that it's known only to God why He chose them.

Sounds crazy doesn't it..

 

[Prince]

All is built upon faith, hope, Love. If I knew I was saved, in what do I hope for? I like hoping. Even Peter denied the Christ, I do not wish to presume anything. Read where Jesus seperates the sheep from the goats, which was it that were surprised they were not saved? which was it that were surprised they were saved? I agree with you about those concerning the mark.

All is built upon faith, hope, Love

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

If I knew I was saved, in what do I hope for?

1 Peter 1:13 - Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Even Peter denied the Christ, I do not wish to presume anything

If you are of the election you will have to come to terms with it, Yes Peter denied Christ but use that as a lesson not as a presumptuous notion.

Read where Jesus seperates the sheep from the goats, which was it that were surprised they were not saved?

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When the antichrist/satan is on earth defacto, and your not following Him you have made your claim as an elect, why wait until hes here defacto?

 

[RoadDebris]

How about you... did God unconditionally choose you ?

Yep. My salvation is all about God, not me. There's no character trait in me that makes me worthy of salvation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rom 3:25

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

and heb 9 15

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

These are very similar, the meaning being, that because of the redemption of the transgressions under the OT, christ death was needful, the OT saints had recieved the truth of their sins being expiated removed because of the future event of the cross..Thats why david coud say :



ps 103:

12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.



and ps 32:

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputed not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.


So Christ blood and benefits had already been in effect, way before His death burial and resurrection..

The Old Testament saints enjoyed the same conscious forgiveness of sins as post cross saints. based on faith,



acts 13:

39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

This goes for adam , eve, abel, noah , seth and on and on..



So God fitted the reprobated the vessels of wrath, for destruction by hardening them in their sins..


So now lets look at the next verse as paul makes his point vs 23

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Notice the word and continuing the thought of vs 22. Just as God made vessels of wrath and fitted them for eternal destruction, he made vessels of mercy, in order that He can make known the riches of His Glory, His free sovereign grace, to those chosen in Christ before the world began..



lets look at eph 2:



1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.



There it is , all that occurred in the garden, the elects fall into sin and shame , making us by nature, no more worthy of salvation as the non elect. We to by nature



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



Our walk was identical to the vessels of wrath, but God, In order to manifest His Glory and His grace in Christ Jesus, choose us the elect, above all others, to display His mercy and grace through Christ Jesus..



7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


Who are the us? Lets look at eph 1:

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



So He is speaking to those who have been chosen in christ before the foundation of the world..



Let me say this. Don't think that this was the first time the Ephesus believers heard about this being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, oh no. If anything this is a rehashing or rehearsing of truth already taught in the gospel of Gods grace..



Notice pauls words in acts 20:



17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

18And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

19Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.



Paul in this passage is reminding the ephesian elders of His ministry among them, how he taught from house to house vs 20 and that he kept back nothing, he surely taught predestination, election, Gods sovereignty..



That he declared all the counsel of God to them vs



27, that would include reprobation, foreordaining, the truthes of romans 9..



So in beginnig his epistle to them, he was suprising them with something new, but confirming and strengthning the sould of his disciples.. as his manner was..



acts 14:



22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.



The glory of the election of grace was afore prepared for them..matt 25:



32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



Come ye chosen of my Father! remember davids prayer ?



ps 106:



5That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.

 

[childeye]

It doesn't sound like you understand unconditional election according to Calvinism.. because unconditional election claims that God chose certain individuals and then enables them to believe through irresistable grace.. there is no basis for God choosing them specifically.. and most would say that it's known only to God why He chose them.

Sounds crazy doesn't it..

It sounds crazy to you because you are not in agreement with them as to what God's purpose is in all of this. So I must ask you, what do you think God's purpose is in all of this? Why do some believe and others don't?

 

[childeye]

If you are of the election you will have to come to terms with it, Yes Peter denied Christ but use that as a lesson not as a presumptuous notion.

I thought I was using it as a lesson; that men can think and say they would do one thing and yet do another. If I am of the election I have nothing to worry about. That's if.

When the antichrist/satan is on earth defacto, and your not following Him you have made your claim as an elect, why wait until hes here defacto?

Good point. I am just waiting for the chance to to say I'm not taking the mark. I'm also waiting to share what resources I have to help others so as to sacrifice my own families comforts for others. Can't wait to get it all over with.
Nonetheless, I havn't crossed that bridge and I won't celebrate till I have.

 

[Eventide]

Yep. My salvation is all about God, not me. There's no character trait in me that makes me worthy of salvation.

You're one of the special ones then... no repentance, no faith, no taking up your cross, no denying yourself..

S P E C I A L !

 

[Eventide]

It sounds crazy to you because you are not in agreement with them as to what God's purpose is in all of this.

Well, if that doesn't sound crazy to you, you must be one of the special Calvinists.

So I must ask you, what do you think God's purpose is in all of this? Why do some believe and others don't?

The bible tells us why people believe and some don't.. read the parable of the sower and the seeds or other parts of the bible which speak as to why many do or do not come to Christ.. it won't matter though if you're a Calvinist, all you need to believe is that God enabled you to believe whiile withholding that from others..

Let's face it.. YOU'RE S P E C I A L !

 

[Prince]

I thought I was using it as a lesson; that men can think and say they would do one thing and yet do another. If I am of the election I have nothing to worry about. That's if.



Good point. I am just waiting for the chance to to say I'm not taking the mark. I'm also waiting to share what resources I have to help others so as to sacrifice my own families comforts for others. Can't wait to get it all over with.
Nonetheless, I havn't crossed that bridge and I won't celebrate till I have.

Indeed it will be an interesting time.

 

[childeye]

Well, if that doesn't sound crazy to you, you must be one of the special Calvinists.



The bible tells us why people believe and some don't.. read the parable of the sower and the seeds or other parts of the bible which speak as to why many do or do not come to Christ.. it won't matter though if you're a Calvinist, all you need to believe is that God enabled you to believe whiile withholding that from others..

Let's face it.. YOU'RE S P E C I A L !

I'm going to take your "YOU'RE SPECIAL" quote as a compliment. I think you're special too!

In regards to your answer to my question, it does partially answer my questions. I would venture to say that nobody's better than anybody else no matter whether they are the elect or not. Perhaps God is simply seeing how we treat the blind whether they are the seeing made blind or the blind made seeing.

 

[RoadDebris]

You're one of the special ones then... no repentance, no faith, no taking up your cross, no denying yourself..

S P E C I A L !

You keep taking what I say and twisting it. I ask you again, it that intellectually honest?

The elect are not "special." Their election is all about God and his choice, not because of any character trait that makes them worthy, but because it suits God's pleasure.

On repentance, faith, and walking the walk, those are effects of salvation, not it's cause. God and God alone is the cause of salvation. It's all about Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The elder shall serve the younger ?

I know the enemies of Gods word and of the blessed Truth of election and reprobation have laid siege on romans nine, perhaps the most thorough divine Revelation on these blessed realties, election and reprobation by the eternal purpose of God..

Within the context of the purpose of election rom 9:


11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

What does God mean here ? That the elder brother shall serve the younger ?

God is here keeping the balance of thought and truth together, that of election and reprobation, Gods eternal Love contrasted with His eternal hatred.

Within the counsel of God, the reprobate are created in subservience to the elect.

God has been pleased to create a portion of mankind to experience His hate and severity, in order to demonstrate and magnify His Love for the election of grace.

Its in line with the ideal taught in scripture of God creating a ransom to take the place of the righteous, but for demonstration purposes..

Here is a scripture for that ideal..Isa 43:3-4

For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

4Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

prov 21:

18The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright.


Now, let me make something clear, i am not and do not believe , nor am i promoting that God paid the devil a ransom, nor do i believe or am promoting that other human beings, by their lives being taken, that it propitiated God for their sins..No, for the Lord Jesus Christ was the ransom for the chosen remnant, and His blood was paid to the Father for the ransom of Gods dear children..

But, what I am advocating, is that God did in order to demonstrate His great redeeming Love toward His chosen, He did include in His eternal purpose, a seed within mankind [the seed of the serpent gen 3:15], that would be created and marked out for destruction and reprobation for their sins, again to demonstrate His awesome Love and Mercy for those who were blessed to be of that election of grace..

So all the non elect of mankind serve this purpose, the non elect serve the purpose of the elect in the Sovereign demonstration of Gods Mercy and His Justice..for the elect, mercy , but unto the non elect, Justice and perdition..

in the scheme of teaching this most solemn truth, God inspired Paul of the historical facts of Jacob and Esau, and how God, even within the same family, had demonstrated His Sovereign difference of election and reprobation, and so it was that the elder [ Esau [ would serve the younger [Jacob] or it could be rendered, the elder [reprobation/hated] served the younger [elected/Loved]..

Gods Love toward His chosen people is supreme in His counsel of decree. It being more fully realized when He brings into existence people who will finally be damned for their sins, hence reprobation is necessary [ Only as God Willed it so] to be a contrast of election..

All the non elect hated in the world, are the same as Esau, brought into existence to serve the purpose of all the Loved Jacobs in the world, so, for this cause, the elder shall serve the younger..

 

[Eventide]

You keep taking what I say and twisting it. I ask you again, it that intellectually honest?

No, I'm just telling it like it is.. and you evidently can't handle it.

The elect are not "special." Their election is all about God and his choice, not because of any character trait that makes them worthy, but because it suits God's pleasure.

LOL.. what a joke.. God chooses you for no reason, enables you to believe (while not affording that to others), and you're telling me that THAT isn't S P E C I A L ?

On repentance, faith, and walking the walk, those are effects of salvation, not it's cause. God and God alone is the cause of salvation. It's all about Him.

Right... God does all that for Y O U and not for all... S P E C I A L ..

Everyone needs to feel special right.. and this is the Calvinist version..

 

[Christ_empowered]

Its quite alright to disagree with Calvinism if you feel so inclined. Its not OK to use below-the-belt attacks on individual Calvinists (fellow Christians, mind you) instead of making an actual point.

Calvinism isn't about being "special"; its an explanation, based on a pretty good interpretation of the Bible, of why some are saved while many continue on the "wide road" that leads to destruction.

Also, your idea that Calvinists choose Calvinism b/c they have some need to feel "special" is the worst sort of watered-down psychobabble explanation of a widely held, Bible-based belief system I have heard in a while. If you have a point, please make it. Otherwise, at least refrain from presuming to know what makes Calvinists "tick" and engaging in below-the-battle attacks on people who, just like you, are trying to live for the Lord.

 

[Eventide]

Its quite alright to disagree with Calvinism if you feel so inclined. Its not OK to use below-the-belt attacks on individual Calvinists (fellow Christians, mind you) instead of making an actual point.

Calling them 'sepcial' is below the belt tactics.. lol..

Calvinism isn't about being "special"; its an explanation, based on a pretty good interpretation of the Bible, of why some are saved while many continue on the "wide road" that leads to destruction.

Based on a good interpretation of the bible..? ? Now that's funny.. God chooses them for absolutely no reason, then ENABLES them to REPENT, BELIEF, take up their cross.. all that good stuff.. while not allowing that for all men.. and that's NOT SPECIAL ? ?

Are you kidding me..?

Why don't YOU explain how that's NOT special..

Also, your idea that Calvinists choose Calvinism b/c they have some need to feel "special" is the worst sort of watered-down psychobabble explanation of a widely held, Bible-based belief system I have heard in a while. If you have a point, please make it. Otherwise, at least refrain from presuming to know what makes Calvinists "tick" and engaging in below-the-battle attacks on people who, just like you, are trying to live for the Lord.

I didn't say that's why they choose Calvinism... imo this is just what the multitudes are being taught today.. .that God chose them and that they're the elect... that's why you have Calvinists always talking about how they're the elect without ever mentioning the ONE who IS the elect..

 

[RoadDebris]

No, I'm just telling it like it is.. and you evidently can't handle it.

Ok, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you weren't aware of how intellectually dishonest it is when you do that. I stand corrected. It's wilful disingenuous. Doesn't lend much credibility to your point of view (IMO).

Example, you ask?

LOL.. what a joke.. God chooses you for no reason, enables you to believe (while not affording that to others), and you're telling me that THAT isn't S P E C I A L ?

Straw man. I gave you God's reasoning. He does it for the same reason he choose Abraham, Isaac, King David, and Peter: for His own glory. Not their glory, not my glory, His glory.

Right... God does all that for Y O U and not for all... S P E C I A L ..

If He did it for all then all would be saved. The Bible is pretty clear when it says few will be saved.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Luke 13:24

Everyone needs to feel special right.. and this is the Calvinist version..

Reformed Theology is founded on rational precepts, not emotionalism.

 

[Eventide]

Ok, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you weren't aware of how intellectually dishonest it is when you do that. I stand corrected. It's wilful disingenuous. Doesn't lend much credibility to your point of view (IMO).

So telling the truth about what Calvinism teaches is dishonest to you.. I would probably feel the same way if I believed these things..

Straw man. I gave you God's reasoning. He does it for the same reason he choose Abraham, Isaac, King David, and Peter: for His own glory. Not their glory, not my glory, His glory.

Well then you can thank your lucky stars that He chose you for no reason other than His own glory.. too bad for the others right.. they're not going to be as lucky as you elected ones..

If He did it for all then all would be saved. The Bible is pretty clear when it says few will be saved.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Luke 13:24

What difference does it make.. if God doesn't unconditionally elect them and then enable them to believe.. they're just out of luck..

Reformed Theology is founded on rational precepts, not emotionalism.

S P E C I A L . . .

 

[RoadDebris]

So telling the truth about what Calvinism teaches is dishonest to you.. I would probably feel the same way if I believed these things..

Putting a straw man argument forward as an imitation of what I'm saying is intellectually dishonest.

Example, you ask?

Well then you can thank your lucky stars that He chose you for no reason other than His own glory.. too bad for the others right.. they're not going to be as lucky as you elected ones..

Wow! That statement says so much about your point of view. First of all, Reformed Theology has nothing to do with astrology or chance. Total straw man. But more importantly, that you mock the most fundamental aspect of existence, the glorification of God, shows just how askew your theology is. There is no motive higher than the glorification of God. It's the very purpose for which you were created.

What difference does it make.. if God doesn't unconditionally elect them and then enable them to believe.. they're just out of luck..

Again, straw man. Here's what one of the worlds leading Reformed theologians says about luck:

“In a universe governed by God there are no chance events. Indeed, there is no such thing as chance. Chance does not exist. It is merely a word we use to describe mathematical possibilities. But chance itself has no power because it has no being. Chance is not an entity that can influence reality. Chance is not a thing. It is nothing.” - R. C. Sproul

Luck is antithetical to Reformed Theology