romans 9 study

[Eventide]

If you read Matthew 19 and compare it with Matthew 25 we see that when the Lord comes again in His glory... that His Apostles (Peter, James, John, etc) will also sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL..

Yup, plain as day in the scriptures.. just as plain as the limitless OT scriptures pertaining to the future repentance and restoration of that nation.

 

[Elijah674]

If you read Matthew 19 and compare it with Matthew 25 we see that when the Lord comes again in His glory... that His Apostles (Peter, James, John, etc) will also sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL..

Yup, plain as day in the scriptures.. just as plain as the limitless OT scriptures pertaining to the future repentance and restoration of that nation.

There are very few denominations ;) 'Who Says' pretty much as he does, (on this one subject) at least so far they seem close? Israel will be the ones made up of ALL saved. Old Israel's HOUSE (Matt. 23:38) was cut OFF with an Matt. 25:10 SHUT DOOR. It is the REMNANT from there on who make up Israel, the 12 Tribes to boot!

Yet, what has not been brought to view yet, is that the LAND WAS PROMISED! It did not sin, huh! So it is after ALL is Finished, the 1000 years of Earth's DESOLATION that the Heavenly City will 'then' be settled down at that promised land.

OK: The population of today agree mostly with your [posted] thinking? Now, ask yourself where satan's last antichrist leader (the pope) would be the most successful located from? And we are already in Matt. 24:21's time of great & increasing TRIBULATION. (if one does not agree, they soon will) So we need to go on into the verses to follow... 'and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very ellect.'

And where did Christ do His work from while He were on earth??? And the antichrist?? Eccl. 3:15

Now, which class of these two, will find this to be the most DECEIVING?? The majority ones who are already being taken in? or the very few mentioned who are not, even if they might not have it all together as of yet? (Rom. 8:14 )

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

There are very few denominations ;) 'Who Says' pretty much as he does, (on this one subject) at least so far they seem close? Israel will be the ones made up of ALL saved. Old Israel's HOUSE (Matt. 23:38) was cut OFF with an Matt. 25:10 SHUT DOOR. It is the REMNANT from there on who make up Israel, the 12 Tribes to boot!

Yet, what has not been brought to view yet, is that the LAND WAS PROMISED! It did not sin, huh! So it is after ALL is Finished, the 1000 years of Earth's DESOLATION that the Heavenly City will 'then' be settled down at that promised land.

OK: The population of today agree mostly with your [posted] thinking? Now, ask yourself where satan's last antichrist leader (the pope) would be the most successful located from? And we are already in Matt. 24:21's time of great & increasing TRIBULATION. (if one does not agree, they soon will) So we need to go on into the verses to follow... 'and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very ellect.'

And where did Christ do His work from while He were on earth??? And the antichrist?? Eccl. 3:15

Now, which class of these two, will find this to be the most DECEIVING?? The majority ones who are already being taken in? or the very few mentioned who are not, even if they might not have it all together as of yet? (Rom. 8:14 )

--Elijah

This must be SDA speak because as usual I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Who Says]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

That's not what the mystery is according to the Apostle to the GENTILES... they mystery is that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. and I hope you know that Israel is the only nation on this earth which is not considered GENTILE.. we also know that Jerusalem (the city of the great King) will be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled..



.

That they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES comes in merely is sayng that is only part of the reason.

That is all I will say here because that is important to see.

That they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES comes in means "that is only part but not all of the reason."

That they are blinded in part means "partly because" or "partly for the reason that".

It does not mean that is the entire reason.

That is all I am going to say here because that is important to see.

If it was all of the reason Paul would not have said "in part".

But the idea as you think of it makes it all of the reason.

 

[Elijah674]

This must be SDA speak because as usual I have no idea what you're talking about.

Just stay tuned, & hang around planet earth (don't give up the Ghost.. DIE) and you will very soon know a little more!;)

And No, SDA do not claim me!:waving

--Elijah

 

[Who Says]

There are very few denominations ;) 'Who Says' pretty much as he does, (on this one subject) at least so far they seem close? Israel will be the ones made up of ALL saved. Old Israel's HOUSE (Matt. 23:38) was cut OFF with an Matt. 25:10 SHUT DOOR. It is the REMNANT from there on who make up Israel, the 12 Tribes to boot!

Yet, what has not been brought to view yet, is that the LAND WAS PROMISED! It did not sin, huh! So it is after ALL is Finished, the 1000 years of Earth's DESOLATION that the Heavenly City will 'then' be settled down at that promised land.

OK: The population of today agree mostly with your [posted] thinking? Now, ask yourself where satan's last antichrist leader (the pope) would be the most successful located from? And we are already in Matt. 24:21's time of great & increasing TRIBULATION. (if one does not agree, they soon will) So we need to go on into the verses to follow... 'and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very ellect.'

And where did Christ do His work from while He were on earth??? And the antichrist?? Eccl. 3:15

Now, which class of these two, will find this to be the most DECEIVING?? The majority ones who are already being taken in? or the very few mentioned who are not, even if they might not have it all together as of yet? (Rom. 8:14 )

--Elijah

Not using the fleshly nation of Israel does not keep there from being a spiritual nation. That fleshly seed was put in the ground and dies. You know scripture at 1 Cor 15: 36-38,

Now tie this in: Romans 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Who is that seed? In that it says "a seed" it is evident isn't it. And I know you know it is Christ.

So that one seed is all that was left. But that one seed was a jew and an Israelite. So what are those who he sires life through him?

And there is where our new nation of Israel, the Israel of God, is born.


Think about it. I know you already know it if you just allow yourselves to think about it.

No one is hating that flesh and blood Israel by saying their salvation comes as our own. The high minded hating was those Gentiles not desireing to preach to that nation because that they had it in their head that it was completely cast off.

 

[Who Says]

If you read Matthew 19 and compare it with Matthew 25 we see that when the Lord comes again in His glory... that His Apostles (Peter, James, John, etc) will also sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL..

Yup, plain as day in the scriptures.. just as plain as the limitless OT scriptures pertaining to the future repentance and restoration of that nation.

Indeed. And the 12 tribes being judged are not in Christ or they would not be being judged.

They are all in this world who like you and i seek to "prevail with God" for the gift of salvation. And that includes members of that fleshly nation, which nation has no possible way of knowing where all those 12 tribes are and even who is a member of what tribe.

So the meaning has to surround the meaning of the name "Israel" which means "prevails with God".

God is the final judge of who of us that have ran this race acheive the victory. God is the final judge (which judgment he commits to his Son) as to who out of all of us have proved to prevail.

 

[Who Says]

The only reason I bother to address this matter is that we are to be judged as individuals each one according to our individual works. (Revelation 2:23)

No nation of this world is being saved as a nation in its entirety and that of the nations which are saved will first have to give up their fleshly pride. And that is not different for that fleshly Israel.

Not receiving the mark of the beast (as beast pictured nations in the OT) is heavily related to not getting sucked into fleshly pride in the heritages of our fleshly nations. Those nations are all a part of the beast.

So I speak of this subject to try to help some open their eyes that they do not get the mark of the beast by throwing their support in with these fleshly nations and their goals, including that fleshly nation that calls itself Israel as we see today.

 

[Drew]

Notice how Paul is grieving for his fleshly brothers. He clearly sees many or most of them as in jeopardy of completely loosing their salvation. Else his grieving would be a lack of faith and we know Paul did not lack faith.

Then he says: Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

He thus revealed their condition which grieved him. They were as a nation genuinely accursed from Christ. And this after all of the advantage they had as he again highlights in verses 5 and 6 as he did at Romans chapter 3 which I explained in my prior post.

I agree, and while I did not read your prior post, I would strongly agree that Romans 3 does indeed "foreshadow" Romans 9 in its treatment of how the nation of Israel has "failed".

Now why do I say as a nation? Because Paul goes on to show us that there is yet some among them who God yet intends to save. So in speaking about them collectively as he did in verses 1-3 he has to mean in the general sense of the nation of his brothers.

Again, I agree. Paul is indeed making a "national" argument about Israel in Romans 9. And in so doing, and as you say, we should not imagine that Paul thinks that each and every Jew will be lost.

If you follow this through carefully and deliberately connecting Paul's thoughts and keeping his theme flowing as I am showing you here, you will see that in Romans 9-11 Paul is not at all talking about God giving that fleshly nation any priority over any other nation of this earth

I totally agree. But, as I think you will agree it gets a bit tricky at the end of chapter 11 where Paul writes about "all Israel" being saved.

I am convinced that, just as in Galatians, Paul uses the term "Israel" to refer to the church.

This is where overly-simplistic analyses fail - the kind that insist that the term "Israel" must always denote the nation of Israel. This is clearly not always the case - it can be easily shown that, at times, Paul uses the term "Israel" to refer to the Jew + Gentile church.

 

[Who Says]

I agree, and while I did not read your prior post, I would strongly agree that Romans 3 does indeed "foreshadow" Romans 9 in its treatment of how the nation of Israel has "failed".


Again, I agree. Paul is indeed making a "national" argument about Israel in Romans 9. And in so doing, and as you say, we should not imagine that Paul thinks that each and every Jew will be lost.


I totally agree. But, as I think you will agree it gets a bit tricky at the end of chapter 11 where Paul writes about "all Israel" being saved.

I am convinced that, just as in Galatians, Paul uses the term "Israel" to refer to the church.

This is where overly-simplistic analyses fail - the kind that insist that the term "Israel" must always denote the nation of Israel. This is clearly not always the case - it can be easily shown that, at times, Paul uses the term "Israel" to refer to the Jew + Gentile church.

Amen to all you said here. The only point I will add is that this trickiness at the end of chap 11 is only that we need to see Paul is saying "all Israel" in the sense of what he said here: Romans 9:6 ¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And the next few verses theren in chap 9 tie in to show an Israelite is who God decrees an Israelite at any given time from among who he wants when he chooses to do so.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If our sire of life (our father who gives us life) is a life giving spirit we in a spiritual way
become whatever he is. And he is an Israelite and a Jew. But showing that fleshly designation does not matter it becomes as though we have no nationality at all in Christ. He is Israel who prevails with God by virtue of having kept that Law and in whom we now prevail with God by virtue of his ransom and priestly intercession for us. That is the Israel of God.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I showed you the progression of this theme in my earlier posts on Romans chapter two and three. This theme is upheld in everything Paul says.

 

[Eventide]

Indeed. And the 12 tribes being judged are not in Christ or they would not be being judged.

In case you missed the point.. the Apostles will be sitting upon twelve thrones and they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel...

So there we have it in plain english... Christ sitting upon the throne of His glory when He will be King over all the earth in that Day... and His Apostles sitting upon twelve thrones and judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

How can this be ignored..?

The Revelation tells us that there will be 12,000 sealed from each of the twelve tribes.. and this number is contrasted to the multitude which could not be numbered..

Israel will be restored as the head of the nations, when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

There can be no odoubt about it.. because it's in the living and powerful word of God.

 

[Drew]

Amen to all you said here. The only point I will add is that this trickiness at the end of chap 11 is only that we need to see Paul is saying "all Israel" in the sense of what he said here: Romans 9:6 ¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Exactly.

 

[Drew]

In case you missed the point.. the Apostles will be sitting upon twelve thrones and they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel...

So there we have it in plain english... Christ sitting upon the throne of His glory when He will be King over all the earth in that Day... and His Apostles sitting upon twelve thrones and judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

How can this be ignored..?

No one is ignoring this. I suggest that, as is the case in Galatians, at the beginning of Romans 9, and at the end of Romans 11, Paul is using the term "Israel" to refer to the church, not to the nation of Israel.

Sorry for the length of the following:

Although it is perhaps a tad confusing, Paul works with two "Israel" categories:

1. National Israel - the genetic descendents of Abraham;

2. "True" Israel - a set of people, containing both Jew and Gentile, who are marked out by one thing only - they believe the gospel of Christ;

Here are examples of Paul making statements about "national" Israel:

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel

1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

So Paul clearly has "national" (or ethnic) Israel in mind as a distinct category.

Now here are texts which speak of "true" Israel:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Those who are "of the law" are the members of national Israel - the Jews. And Paul is here stating that Abraham's offspring includes any person - Jew or Gentile - who has the faith of Abraham.

Now Paul makes it clear that these people are the "true" family of Abraham, even though he is fully aware that Abraham also has a "genetic" family. Why is Paul being so confusing? Why not simply call this "Jew+Gentile" family (that he refers to in the text above) the "true" people of God? Why does he insist of defining them to be Abraham's children, when he knows very well that the reader will be inclined to think of the Jews as Abraham's children?

Many contend that Paul does not see the Jew + Gentile family of believers as a “true†Israel, or as any kind of Israel. On such a view, Abraham is merely a kind of “example†of those who are justified by faith – he is not in any sense a father of a Jew + Gentile version of Israel. Well if that is so, Paul has been obscure or misleading – to characterize the Jew + Gentile family of faith as Abraham’s offspring, a category that begs the reader to see an allusion to Israel. After all, it is Abraham who is the patriarch of the nation of Israel.

Furthermore, if Paul does not see the Jew + Gentile family of faith as a “true†Israel, then he is being even more misleading than this. Even though it will be vigorously denied, Romans 4 (from which the above text is extracted) is an extended reflection on the establishment of the covenant. If Paul really does not see the Jew+Gentile family of faith as an “Israelâ€, it would be misleading indeed for Paul to talk of the Jew + Gentile family of faith as Abraham’s offspring in the middle of a reflection of covenantal promises to Abraham.

But even more telling, as we see in Romans 4 to 8, Paul believes that covenant promises, summarized in Romans 9:4, and seemingly made to Abraham in his role as father of national Israel, were in fact never made to national Israel at all, but rather made to Abraham in his role as father of "true" Israel.

Paul cannot afford to get rid of the connection to Abraham in his identification of the true people of God. If he did, he would not be able to argue, as he does in Romans 4 to 8, that promises made to Abraham are actually the inheritance of the true people of God.

And here is another reference to "true" Israel:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

Although Paul does not use the term "Israel" here, he is clearly saying that the "true" people of God - that is the true Israel - are a group other than those who are traditionally held to be the people of God - national Israel.

And, of course, there are Jews in both groups. One can be a member of national Israel and a member of true Israel. Paul is one example.

 

[Who Says]

In case you missed the point.. the Apostles will be sitting upon twelve thrones and they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel...

So there we have it in plain english... Christ sitting upon the throne of His glory when He will be King over all the earth in that Day... and His Apostles sitting upon twelve thrones and judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

How can this be ignored..?

The Revelation tells us that there will be 12,000 sealed from each of the twelve tribes.. and this number is contrasted to the multitude which could not be numbered..

Israel will be restored as the head of the nations, when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

There can be no odoubt about it.. because it's in the living and powerful word of God.

NO, I did not miss that point. Those 12 natural Jewish Apostles are merely foundation stones upon which the temple is built of both Jews and Gentiles who do that judging with Christ. See Ephesian 2: 13-22 and compare 1 Peter 2:4-10

That Revelation tells us that there will be 12,000 sealed from each of the twelve tribes merely means the victors out of all those in this earth who sought to "prevail with God" for the promise to be co-king/priests with Christ. Those 12,000 out of each are the ones that ran that race successfully. The rest will have their salvation in becoming the subjects under the rule of that government.

 

[Who Says]

And, of course, there are Jews in both groups. One can be a member of national Israel and a member of true Israel. Paul is one example.

I shortened your statement to give my responce but I just wanted to say how well thought out and stated your entire post is. That is the kind of clarity we all need to see.

 

[Elijah674]

Who Says says in part:
Not receiving the mark of the beast (as beast pictured nations in the OT) is heavily related to not getting sucked into fleshly pride in the heritages of our fleshly nations. Those nations are all a part of the beast.

So I speak of this subject to try to help some open their eyes that they do not get the mark of the beast by throwing their support in with these fleshly nations and their goals, including that fleshly nation that calls itself Israel as we see today.[/QUOTE]

I can mostly agee with that. The land of Israel is going to be a mighty deceiptive place to watch. The parable of Matt. 25 is quoted by some, yet, not with much understanding. The parable is explained from verse 5-on, (in Matt. 10) but verse 15 finds the END TIME judgement for the ex/house, with these ones found even by far the worse than those of S & G. (even see verse 23 ibid & remember that Christ was there at that time already, and speaking!)

Also these of verse 5 & 6 along with the ones who did hear, 'were' the REMNANT few ones who made up the start of the Acts Church. (same Virgin Doctrines even. Matt. 23:2-3 + verse 23) But, which stayed put & who followed Christ [out] & left as Christ's extended Remnant Israel!

And Matt. 25 has the MIDNIGHT CRY given to old Israel, and a GOING [OUT] to meet Christ OUTSIDE, + the CLOSED Door for the judged 'HOUSE' of Isa. 5:3 'BETWIXT ME & MY VINEYARD'! (and again as in old posts, 70AD is the LOUD CRY OF SLAUGHTER, not the Midnight CRY given in the last warning seen here to the Old Apostate fold.

And when folks get into Daniel & the combination of the midst of the week's Midnight Cry, & 70 AD, they need to understand that it was 39 years later & the fold was already judged lost. Yet, inside this Israel/fold/house, Christ gave opportunity for the ones of Matt. 23:15's ignorant converts as in the previous 39 years start, as individuals to still flee! So in effect, NOT ONE CHRISTIAN DIED IN THAT SLAUGHTER!

And for today??? Both Christ + Paul doubled up the Eccl. 3:15 Truth, telling us that it would not be the 'exact' same, for both TOLD US THAT IT ALL WOULD BE CUT SHORT IN RIGHTOUSNESS! See Gen. 41:32 + Acts 3:19. (+ no more 39 years ahead)

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

NO, I did not miss that point. Those 12 natural Jewish Apostles are merely foundation stones upon which the temple is built of both Jews and Gentiles who do that judging with Christ. See Ephesian 2: 13-22 and compare 1 Peter 2:4-10

They certainly won't be natural.. they'll be resurrected and ruling and reigning with Christ.

That Revelation tells us that there will be 12,000 sealed from each of the twelve tribes merely means the victors out of all those in this earth who sought to "prevail with God" for the promise to be co-king/priests with Christ. Those 12,000 out of each are the ones that ran that race successfully. The rest will have their salvation in becoming the subjects under the rule of that government.

Thanks for your opinion on the matter but I'll stick with what the word of God actually says.. that they're from the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Drew]

Thanks for your opinion on the matter but I'll stick with what the word of God actually says.. that they're from the twelve tribes of Israel.

Things are not that simple. The word of God is full of complex literary forms that are not to be taken at face value.

It is crystal clear - sometimes references to "Israel" are really coded references to the church.

Do you deny this?

 

[Eventide]

It is crystal clear - sometimes references to "Israel" are really coded references to the church.

Do you deny this?

Absolutely.. Israel means Israel.. the church means the church.. that's why they have different names.. just as GENTILE always means GENTILE.. which is all nations except Israel..

 

[Drew]

Absolutely.. Israel means Israel.. the church means the church.. that's why they have different names.. just as GENTILE always means GENTILE.. which is all nations except Israel..

Did you read my lengthy post - it shows that Paul does not operate as per your expectations. In summary, we have Paul clearly understanding that Abraham is a father in two senses:

1. He is father of national Israel;
2. He is father of "true" Israel - the Jew + Gentile family of faith.

You muzzle Paul when you impose such rigid interpretive schemes - insisting that "Israel" must always denote the nation of Israel.