salvation and the loss of it

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What is your definition of "disbelief"? What "mark' did God set upon the children of Israel? How do we profane the rest that God gives us? How is that we can't lose salvation, but we can turn from it? Do you believe that we can turn from Satan without turning to God?

Disbelief - to not believe.

Ok, seriously though, disbelief as it relates to Christ is to not believe He is the ONLY means of salvation. If you believe it's Him plus something you did, well, that means He is not the only means. There are a lot of people who think it was because of a prayer they said that God will base their eternal dwelling place on.

Disbelief is quite literally anything other than faith in Christ and His salvation in you, not because you did something, but because He is in you.

The mark between God and His people is rest. Was back then, in the form of the sabbaths - and it is today, in the form of Christ. They showed that they had the mark back then by temembering the sabbath. We show the mark we have by remembering Christ.

I hope the parallel is showing here? We profane Gods rest by disbelief. Mankind is made to want to do something to please or think he is pleasing God. So we will always want to 'do' something to earn our salvation. Some people 'check' off that todo box, and move on.....

Losing something means you don't know where it is. Turning from something means you purposefully do not care for it anymore.

You are either walking with God, or following satan. There is no middle ground. You turn from one to the other.

 

[Nathan]

Some might say you're actually saved before you even believe. God regenerates you..grants you the ability to come to Christ...to believe.

Some might say you don't even have to believe.

I'd say all three sayings have some truth, but are not the truth.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Disbelief - to not believe.

Ok, seriously though, disbelief as it relates to Christ is to not believe He is the ONLY means of salvation. If you believe it's Him plus something you did, well, that means He is not the only means. There are a lot of people who think it was because of a prayer they said that God will base their eternal dwelling place on.

Disbelief is quite literally anything other than faith in Christ and His salvation in you, not because you did something, but because He is in you.

The mark between God and His people is rest. Was back then, in the form of the sabbaths - and it is today, in the form of Christ. They showed that they had the mark back then by temembering the sabbath. We show the mark we have by remembering Christ.

I hope the parallel is showing here? We profane Gods rest by disbelief. Mankind is made to want to do something to please or think he is pleasing God. So we will always want to 'do' something to earn our salvation. Some people 'check' off that todo box, and move on.....

Losing something means you don't know where it is. Turning from something means you purposefully do not care for it anymore.

You are either walking with God, or following satan. There is no middle ground. You turn from one to the other.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What does it mean "to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart"? Romans 10:9-10, " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." In Luke we have an example: Luke 18;13-14 " And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

2 Corinthians 5:17, " Therefore is any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." What are the "old things" and what does "are passed away" mean?

Salvation comes while were are still sinners according to Romans 5:8, " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

When we believe in our heart that Christ died for us were are made a new creature. In order to be made new the old has to pass away; it is not a "remodeling" job; we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, because of salvation, not because of anything that we do.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What does it mean "to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart"? Romans 10:9-10, " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." In Luke we have an example: Luke 18;13-14 " And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

2 Corinthians 5:17, " Therefore is any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." What are the "old things" and what does "are passed away" mean?

Salvation comes while were are still sinners according to Romans 5:8, " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

When we believe in our heart that Christ died for us were are made a new creature. In order to be made new the old has to pass away; it is not a "remodeling" job; we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, because of salvation, not because of anything that we do.

You really pose good questions, I like that you think about things.

To confess with the mouth, means you really believe in your heart.

Luke 6:45 (ESV)
The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

If a person did not really believe, then they would not truly confess.

The old things that have passed away is the slavery to sin, and all that it requires us to do.

Ephesians 4
17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds.
18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!-
21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,
22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Our new creation is in Christ, but that does not mean the old man and the world do not still try and lead us away. Gods seed is in us who believe, and just like a seed grows into a plant, so too God word grows in us.

We see that those who's soil is less than perfect, who's heart is not being 'worked' for the plant to grow, the plant can become dead due to heat and choked due to other things growing with it - so too the word of God will die if there is no depth of root or because of other desires in our heart.

We are soil, He is the farmer. We can't change our hearts but He can - and will if we submit. We simply need to abide in Him.

John 15:4 (ESV)
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

 

[Kidron]

-
The only people who believe you can lose your salvation, are in fact the only people who dont actually understand it.
Some of them are so self-righteous they never will give all the Credit for Salvation to God who performed it,.... while some of them will eventually realize they are trying to save themselves instead of trusting in Christ alone who has achieved it for them, and they "get the revelation" of 'God's Grace".

 

[Cygnus]

-
The only people who believe you can lose your salvation, are in fact the only people who dont actually understand it.
Some of them are so self-righteous they never will give all the Credit for Salvation to God who performed it,.... while some of them will eventually realize they are trying to save themselves instead of trusting in Christ alone who has achieved it for them, and they "get the revelation" of 'God's Grace".

"are in fact the only people who dont actually understand it."....interesting thought.

 

[Kidron]

"are in fact the only people who dont actually understand it."....interesting thought.

-
Who are those who reject Grace = that reject OSAS?
Only those who try to merge works with Grace to keep themselves saved.
These are "fallen from Grace".........in other words they are trying to help Jesus and the Cross out with their works, or they are substituting their own works totally, (Legalism) in place of the "Gift of Righteousness" = that IS the ONLY means that God uses to make us acceptable to Himself.

If you ask someone who Rejects OSAS (Grace Rejectors)....."why do you think that the same good works you can do before you are saved, that didnt save you, would keep you saved if you do them after Jesus saves you?

Their answer?......"im a cow looking at a gate with my eyes wide shut in confusion".

 

[Nathan]

-
The only people who believe you can lose your salvation, are in fact the only people who dont actually understand it.
Some of them are so self-righteous they never will give all the Credit for Salvation to God who performed it,.... while some of them will eventually realize they are trying to save themselves instead of trusting in Christ alone who has achieved it for them, and they "get the revelation" of 'God's Grace".

I agree. That's why we should be as Paul instructed Timothy.

2 Timothy 2:24 (ESV) 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

2 Timothy 2:25 (ESV) 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

2 Timothy 2:26 (ESV) 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

 

[Nathan]

-
Who are those who reject Grace = that reject OSAS?
Only those who try to merge works with Grace to keep themselves saved.
These are "fallen from Grace".........in other words they are trying to help Jesus and the Cross out with their works, or they are substituting their own works totally, (Legalism) in place of the "Gift of Righteousness" = that IS the ONLY means that God uses to make us acceptable to Himself.

If you ask someone who Rejects OSAS (Grace Rejectors)....."why do you think that the same good works you can do before you are saved, that didnt save you, would keep you saved if you do them after Jesus saves you?

Their answer?......"im a cow looking at a gate with my eyes wide shut in confusion".

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that to reject grace is equivalent to rejecting OSAS.

Even some in the OSAS camp believe in salvation by works. Some hold to a salvation based on what they did at one time in the past.

 

[ezrider]

To confess with the mouth, means you really believe in your heart.

Luke 6:45 (ESV)
The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Just to add to the thought of what comes out of the mouth.....

Matthew 12:36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 15:17-18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

James 3:1-10
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

 

[Nathan]

Just to add to the thought of what comes out of the mouth.....

Matthew 12:36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 15:17-18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

James 3:1-10
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Amen

It's so easy to not consider the magnitude of words spoken(and written).

I think we don't realize that the mouth is the main form of communicating with each other(our fingers for us forum ones). Communication is in effect a reproductive 'organ' of our brain. We should consider that what we say is reproduced in the mind of the ones who hear. In turn, it effects the way they think.

 

[dirtfarmer]

You really pose good questions, I like that you think about things.

To confess with the mouth, means you really believe in your heart.

Luke 6:45 (ESV)
The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

If a person did not really believe, then they would not truly confess.

The old things that have passed away is the slavery to sin, and all that it requires us to do.

Ephesians 4
17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds.
18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!-
21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,
22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Our new creation is in Christ, but that does not mean the old man and the world do not still try and lead us away. Gods seed is in us who believe, and just like a seed grows into a plant, so too God word grows in us.

We see that those who's soil is less than perfect, who's heart is not being 'worked' for the plant to grow, the plant can become dead due to heat and choked due to other things growing with it - so too the word of God will die if there is no depth of root or because of other desires in our heart.

We are soil, He is the farmer. We can't change our hearts but He can - and will if we submit. We simply need to abide in Him.

John 15:4 (ESV)
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

If we are the soil, then we can't be the plant or even a branch.

As I have stated before; We have salvation from the penalty of sin and also from the power of sin, but what we haven't yet received salvation from, is the presence of sin. We are left in the world but we are not of this world and sin no longer has dominion over us, the believer. We are kept by the power of God and His Son has "prepared" a place that we will go to so that we won't be in the presence of sin. We were sinners not because we commited sins, but we commit sins because we are sinners.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

If we are the soil, then we can't be the plant or even a branch.

As I have stated before; We have salvation from the penalty of sin and also from the power of sin, but what we haven't yet received salvation from, is the presence of sin. We are left in the world but we are not of this world and sin no longer has dominion over us, the believer. We are kept by the power of God and His Son has "prepared" a place that we will go to so that we won't be in the presence of sin. We were sinners not because we commited sins, but we commit sins because we are sinners.

Well the branch is a completely different analogy/parable. But your correct, we are not the plant, that is the word of God in us.

Mark 4:14 (ESV) 14 The sower sows the word.

I agree with you on the differences in salvation. Very well put.

It's the mere fact that the presence of sin is still with us that we should understand it can lead us away - however, it is ONLY because we want it to.

Sin has no power over us. So when we sin, as believers, it is because we choose too. We were set free from its slavery. It's not anyone, or anything, that leads us from God - it's ourselves.

That sin, that we desire and pursue, can grow to choke out the life in us. When we sin by denying the discipline of God(heat of trials), it can wither that life in us.

Don't get the idea that that means God word dies. See, the seed is the word of God - it 'dies' in us, and from it 'new' life emerges. It's that new life that 'can' die - if sin is not kept in check.

Once we come to glory then, as you said, we will no longer be in the presence of sin and therefore will have no desire.

 

[Nathan]

Well the branch is a completely different analogy/parable. But your correct, we are not the plant, that is the word of God in us.

Mark 4:14 (ESV) 14 The sower sows the word.

I agree with you on the differences in salvation. Very well put.

It's the mere fact that the presence of sin is still with us that we should understand it can lead us away - however, it is ONLY because we want it to.

Sin has no power over us. So when we sin, as believers, it is because we choose too. We were set free from its slavery. It's not anyone, or anything, that leads us from God - it's ourselves.

That sin, that we desire and pursue, can grow to choke out the life in us. When we sin by denying the discipline of God(heat of trials), it can wither that life in us.

Don't get the idea that that means God word dies. See, the seed is the word of God - it 'dies' in us, and from it 'new' life emerges. It's that new life that 'can' die - if sin is not kept in check.

Once we come to glory then, as you said, we will no longer be in the presence of sin and therefore will have no desire.

This was a huge struggle for me when I first believed. Any time I saw sin I wondered just how that was going to not going to be a bad thing in heaven.

Once I realized that there will be no sin there, no desire, no temptation - then I realized that I won't 'mess up' in heaven.

Can't wait to be there!

 

[Papa Zoom]

This was a huge struggle for me when I first believed. Any time I saw sin I wondered just how that was going to not going to be a bad thing in heaven.

Once I realized that there will be no sin there, no desire, no temptation - then I realized that I won't 'mess up' in heaven.

Can't wait to be there!

You and me both! Romans 7:24 English Standard Version
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

 

[chessman]

Once I realized that there will be no sin there, no desire, no temptation - then I realized that I won't 'mess up' in heaven.

What makes you think there will be no sin or desire to sin in Heaven?

 

[Nathan]

You and me both! Romans 7:24 English Standard Version
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

:yes

Praise God, with our minds we serve the law of God, and our flesh the law of sin.

I'll admit......sometimes I get those mixed up.....I'm always in awe of the grace of God at those times.

 

[Nathan]

What makes you think there will be no sin or desire to sin in Heaven?

Revelation 21&22, among other passages here and there.

Most relavent is;

Revelation 21:4 (ESV) 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

 

[chessman]

Revelation 21&22, among other passages here and there.

Most relavent is;

Revelation 21:4 (ESV) 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

I can see where this passage (of Scripture) says there will be no more death, crying, pain, or mourning. But it doesn't say anything about no more "desire to sin".

Are you aware of any passage of Scripture that directly says there will be no more desire to sin in Heaven?

If not, how did you come to that conclusion? James 1:15 coupled with the later book containing Revelation 21:4, maybe?

 

[Nathan]

I can see where this passage (of Scripture) says there will be no more death, crying, pain, or mourning. But it doesn't say anything about no more "desire to sin".

Are you aware of any passage of Scripture that directly says there will be no more desire to sin in Heaven?

If not, how did you come to that conclusion? James 1:15 coupled with the later book containing Revelation 21:4, maybe?

I think it would have to be because of everything listed in that verse, but death is a key element - as you showed, death is a result of sin.

If God is there, and we will see His face, then there is no possible way for sin to be there in any shape or form.

The 'desire' to sin comes from our flesh. Since that will be no more, but a new flesh - then there will be no desire.

And of course, temptation comes from the lawless one, and there is no doubt he won't be there.

As far as specific verses, Daniel prophesied of such;

Daniel 9:24 (ESV)
"Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

When sin 'ends' then it is no more.

Do you believe there will be sin in heaven?