salvation and the loss of it

[WIP]

Yes, but I think there's more to it. The side favoring loss of salvation usually comes up with the most disgusting scenario that can be imagined, and then ask, how can that person go to heaven? So it seems to me, anyway, that there is a lot of emotion driving that side of the argument.

I think there's way too much emotion and prideful heads driving both sides of the argument. Although I lean more toward the OSNAS persuasion, I am not totally convinced. Reading the arguments back and forth with all the sarcastic snippets and twisting of each others' presentations, I am not finding this discussion to be edifying very much at all.

 

[reba]

AMEN

 

[Nathan]

Christ only accepts those who believe.

Question is, can a person believe without Christ first accepting them?

 

[Kidron]

Question is, can a person believe without Christ first accepting them?

-
Is this some type of... "for those He foreknew He elected", kinda question thingy?, as i dont really understand exaclty what you are implying using your question, but i offered you what i think you are trying to say. ??????????????????????????????????<<<<<
Maybe you can be more clear?.. More Specific?

Other then that, Christ accepts everyone He died for on the Cross.
That would be everyone.
But not everyone will have HIM, by faith.

 

[Nathan]

-
Is this some type of... "for those He foreknew He elected", kinda question thingy?, as i dont really understand exaclty what you are implying using your question, but i offered you what i think you are trying to say. ??????????????????????????????????<<<<<
Maybe you can be more clear?.. More Specific?

Other then that, Christ accepts everyone He died for on the Cross.
That would be everyone.
But not everyone will have HIM, by faith.

No, its not a election thingy. Its more of not getting the cart before the horse thingy.

Mat 22:11-14
“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

We can only believe because He gives us the ability to believe. We have faith because He gives us faith.

The only reason a person will not believe is because they chose not to believe. People cannot no come to Him unless He first calls them, but when we come to Him after being called we cannot keep our 'righteousness' as the means for faith.

In other words, we cannot base our faith of something we once believed - but on something we do believe. He does not accept us because we believe, we believe because He accepts us.

 

[Cygnus]

FreeGrace said:

Christ only accepts those who believe.

In which Nathan replied back with:
Question is, can a person believe without Christ first accepting them?

Perhaps it happens at the same time...along with the required regeneration.

 

[reba]

Christ only accepts those who believe.

who does the believing

 

[FreeGrace]

I think there's way too much emotion and prideful heads driving both sides of the argument. Although I lean more toward the OSNAS persuasion, I am not totally convinced. Reading the arguments back and forth with all the sarcastic snippets and twisting of each others' presentations, I am not finding this discussion to be edifying very much at all.

If the promise of Jesus in John 120:28 is not about eternal security, what was His point?

 

[FreeGrace]

Question is, can a person believe without Christ first accepting them?

Jesus Christ died for all of humanity in the first place. How is that not "Christ not accepting them"?

 

[reba]

Jesus Christ died for all of humanity in the first place. How is that not "Christ not accepting them"?

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

so all humanity will be received unto Himself?

 

[FreeGrace]

We can only believe because He gives us the ability to believe.

He gave everyone the ability to believe. It's called a conscience (Rom 2:14,15), and knowing right from wrong (Isa 7:15,16).

We have faith because He gives us faith.

Does this mean He causes one to believe? If so, where does Scripture say so? Thanks.

The only reason a person will not believe is because they chose not to believe. People cannot no come to Him unless He first calls them

He has called Israel (Matt 23:37) and Gentiles (Rom 1:5 - Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

In other words, we cannot base our faith of something we once believed - but on something we do believe. He does not accept us because we believe, we believe because He accepts us.

This sounds like God is the cause of a person's believing. Please provide any Scripture that teaches this.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Christ only accepts those who believe."

who does the believing

This question surprises me. It would be human beings, of course. Who else could it be?

Well, there was no question mark, but it appears to be a question. If not, please clarify. Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

Jesus Christ died for all of humanity in the first place. How is that not "Christ not accepting them"?

Exactly

He already accepts us, we just need to believe it.

 

[reba]

I said this:
"Christ only accepts those who believe."

This question surprises me. It would be human beings, of course. Who else could it be?

Well, there was no question mark, but it appears to be a question. If not, please clarify. Thanks.

skipped the ? 2

It would be humans who draw back into perdition correct ?

Heb_10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Jesus Christ died for all of humanity in the first place. How is that not "Christ not accepting them"?"

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

so all humanity will be received unto Himself?

No. Humanity was reconciled (accepted) to God through Christ. 2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This is not salvation, but what Christ had to do to to satisfy His Father regarding the sin debt. Through reconciliation, God offers salvation through faith in His Son who paid the sin debt.

 

[FreeGrace]

Exactly

He already accepts us, we just need to believe it.

We need to believe that He died for us for salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Does this mean He causes one to believe? If so, where does Scripture say so? Thanks.

John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[reba]

Reconciliation to Him is not salvation ?

 

[Nathan]

He gave everyone the ability to believe. It's called a conscience (Rom 2:14,15), and knowing right from wrong (Isa 7:15,16).


Does this mean He causes one to believe? If so, where does Scripture say so? Thanks.


He has called Israel (Matt 23:37) and Gentiles (Rom 1:5 - Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.


This sounds like God is the cause of a person's believing. Please provide any Scripture that teaches this.

Jas 1:18
Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Jhn 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Eph 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

He does not cause us to believe, but He gives us the ability. If He did not give us the ability, then we could not.

Actually, we do not have a 'conscience' that enables us to believe. That would mean that we could 'do' something to receive salvation. Belief in Christ comes through faith - faith alone. It is not something we can 'muster' in ourselves, and only comes when the Spirit draws us. That is why it is written -

Heb 3:15
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

 

[Cygnus]

He does not cause us to believe, but He gives us the ability. If He did not give us the ability, then we could not.

Once you have been given the ability to believe...how could you not believe?