salvation and the loss of it

[Nathan]

To prune or cleanse sounds like a verse to dicipleship. To cast in to fire sounds like the discription for hell. John 15:1-17 seems to speak about both discipleship and letting go of Jesus.

As for John 10:28, I don't have an answer. There are theological answers pointing to predestination saying those who fall away were never saved to begin with, and if that's the truth, then it can be argued that no one knows their place in salvation untill we die or Jesus returns.

It's not a great answer, but it sl least tries to consider both kinds of verses that offer encouragememt and protection in Jesus's salvation, as well as the verses with stern warning of falling away from Jesus.

Your correct. The Bible never, ever, describes a person in Christ as burning - burning is always a description of eternal separation.

 

[WIP]

For those believers who turn away from the Lord, they WILL face God's promised discipline, which will not be pleasant, but painful. So they will surely suffer here on earth. I wouldn't in any sense compare that to an eternity in the lake of fire.

I'm not sure what the last part of your question means. Could you clarify, please?

If I truly did not want to spend eternity with God, having to look forward to a forced existence with Him would be a living hell here on earth. Likewise, if I truly did not want to spend eternity in heaven, to be forced to do so would be an eternity of a living hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

To prune or cleanse sounds like a verse to dicipleship. To cast in to fire sounds like the discription for hell. John 15:1-17 seems to speak about both discipleship and letting go of Jesus.

None of the verses speak of losing salvation.

Given your position here, what should one do with 1 Cor 3:14-15?
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Does one "escape through hell", if all references to fire, flames or burning refer to hell?

As for John 10:28, I don't have an answer.

Thanks for this honesty. But it's quite clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus said. That's eternal security.

There are theological answers pointing to predestination saying those who fall away were never saved to begin with, and if that's the truth, then it can be argued that no one knows their place in salvation untill we die or Jesus returns.

That's not biblical teaching. That's Calvinistic teaching. Which is different from biblical teaching.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"So they will surely suffer here on earth"

Heb 10:31 - It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

So there is not a scripture saying what you said..

If neither Heb 10:31 and 12:11 don't move one, I guess one will not be moved.

Just curious; why doesn't John 10:28 convince you of eternal security?

 

[FreeGrace]

God did not make Judas betray Jesus.

And I never even hinted that He did. What God actually DID was place Judas in that exact spot and time, knowing he would do what he did.

Acts 17:26,27
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

v.26 tells us WHERE and WHEN we are born and by WHOM.
v.27 tells us WHY God placed us where and when He did.

Judas betrayed Jesus on his own free will.

Yes he did. And God knew all along that he would, given the opportunity. Which God gave him.

God knew he would do it and prophesied about it. Judas was one of Gods chosen ones and he turned on Jesus. This is why it is said that it would be better for him if he had not been born.

Yes, that is what I believe as well.

Sheep are the context of John 10, you can't rewrite the passage just because you don't agree with what it says.

Is this actually a denial of a promise to recipients of eternal life?

Is this an insinuation that Jesus gives eternal life to sheep???

Do you not agree because you don't like the way it gives understanding to verse 28 and 29?

I agree with the clear words of Jesus; recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Eternal security could not be stated more clearly.

 

[FreeGrace]

If I truly did not want to spend eternity with God, having to look forward to a forced existence with Him would be a living hell here on earth.

OK, I agree that any believer who turns away from God will be miserable here on here. No doubt. However, wouldn't you agree that WHEN such a person enters eternity WITH God, and WITHOUT his old sinful human nature, his attitude will markedly improve?

Likewise, if I truly did not want to spend eternity in heaven, to be forced to do so would be an eternity of a living hell.

Not once you got there. Without the sinful human nature, heaven will be pure peace and love with God.

 

[dirtfarmer]

If I truly did not want to spend eternity with God, having to look forward to a forced existence with Him would be a living hell here on earth. Likewise, if I truly did not want to spend eternity in heaven, to be forced to do so would be an eternity of a living hell.

hello WIP, dirtfarmer here

What are the scriptures that states that God forces salvation on any one?

If a person doesn't want to spend eternity with God all they have to do is reject the convicting of the Holy Ghost until their death and they are assured place in the lake of fire. There is no other alternative. You will either burn in the lake of fire or bask in the glory of the Lord, there is no third option.

 

[Nathan]

And I never even hinted that He did. What God actually DID was place Judas in that exact spot and time, knowing he would do what he did.

Acts 17:26,27
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

v.26 tells us WHERE and WHEN we are born and by WHOM.
v.27 tells us WHY God placed us where and when He did.


Yes he did. And God knew all along that he would, given the opportunity. Which God gave him.


Yes, that is what I believe as well.


Is this actually a denial of a promise to recipients of eternal life?

Is this an insinuation that Jesus gives eternal life to sheep???


I agree with the clear words of Jesus; recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Eternal security could not be stated more clearly.

Did Judas have a choice to do what he did?

Do you believe God gives others the choice to betray Him, by preaching false gospels leading people away from the faith? Jesus prophesied of these.

Matthew 24
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Nathan]

OK, I agree that any believer who turns away from God will be miserable here on here. No doubt. However, wouldn't you agree that WHEN such a person enters eternity WITH God, and WITHOUT his old sinful human nature, his attitude will markedly improve?


Not once you got there. Without the sinful human nature, heaven will be pure peace and love with God.

The true Gospel says we have peace with God now.

Romans 5:1 (ESV)
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

A believer who turns from God does not have peace because they do not have Christ. Without Christ, they do not have salvation.

Hebrews 10:39 (ESV)
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

A false gospel says we can be alienated and hostile toward God while in Christ.

Colossians 1
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did Judas have a choice to do what he did?

Of course. He is just as accountable as any other human being. He was present and saw the miracles of Jesus. There is no excuse for his rejection of Jesus as the Messiah.

This is what Jesus said about His miracles in John 10:
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Do you believe God gives others the choice to betray Him, by preaching false gospels leading people away from the faith? Jesus prophesied of these.

If He isn't giving the choice to all false prophets, who's making those choices?

 

[FreeGrace]

The true Gospel says we have peace with God now.

We do. But is this a denial of God's painful discipline towards His rebellious children??

A believer who turns from God does not have peace because they do not have Christ.

This continues to NOT be shown from Scripture.

otoh, the opposite has been shown: those having believed, are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Just curious; why don't these verses convince you of eternal security?

Without Christ, they do not have salvation.

No one does. But once sealed, always sealed.

No one has shown otherwise. It remains an opinion only.

Hebrews 10:39 (ESV)
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

From the Greek, this is about physical life and death. Nothing eternal here.

A false gospel says we can be alienated and hostile toward God while in Christ.

Those who either don't understand the biblical teaching of fellowship or even outright deny it may come to such a conclusion.

So I must ask: since Paul commanded believers to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, are believers not alienated and hostile when they do this?

 

[gr8grace3]

FreeGrace......Lots and lots of great spiritual truths revealed to us in the last few pages. I consider it a privilege to log on and read your diligent study of His word and HIS TRUTH you present to us.

 

[Nathan]

We do. But is this a denial of God's painful discipline towards His rebellious children??


This continues to NOT be shown from Scripture.

otoh, the opposite has been shown: those having believed, are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Just curious; why don't these verses convince you of eternal security?


No one does. But once sealed, always sealed.

No one has shown otherwise. It remains an opinion only.


From the Greek, this is about physical life and death. Nothing eternal here.


Those who either don't understand the biblical teaching of fellowship or even outright deny it may come to such a conclusion.

So I must ask: since Paul commanded believers to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, are believers not alienated and hostile when they do this?

No, a believer who grieves the Spirit is not alienated and hostile toward God. In Christ that is taken away.

You are very quick to claim nothing has been proven from the Bible, but you are in that same boat. You have yet to prove that a person cannot deny and leave Christ.

I've shown it true by the very example of Judas(for one). Where is your proof? Where does it say a believer cannot turn away from Christ and leave Him?

 

[Nathan]

Revelation 14
6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
7 And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."
8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"

The call is being given even today. Do not forsake the faith in turning to worship the beast. Only in Christ is there salvation, do not be deceived.

 

[gr8grace3]

You are very quick to claim nothing has been proven from the Bible, but you are in that same boat. You have yet to prove that a person cannot deny and leave Christ.

I don't understand how you can ask this? He has proven that MANY, MANY believers have been caught up in this world and their pride and have denied Christ and have left Him...........what the point is, is Christ will NOT leave them. John 10:28.

Romans 8~~37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing in the future and nothing created (you and I are created) can separate us from Christ.

 

[Nathan]

I don't understand how you can ask this? He has proven that MANY, MANY believers have been caught up in this world and their pride and have denied Christ and have left Him...........what the point is, is Christ will NOT leave them. John 10:28.

Romans 8~~37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing in the future and nothing created (you and I are created) can separate us from Christ.

Exactly, Christ will not leave us - it is the persons own choice to leave Christ. What is being twisted is the idea that a person can leave Christ - yet not be separated from Christ. That is an oxymoron.

If a woman leaves her husband they are no longer together - regardless if he did not leave her. She leaves, that means they are seperated.

Your adding words to that passage. Nothing can separate us from the love of God - which is in Christ. The love of God is in Christ. If you leave Christ you leave the love of God. Nothing can seperate us from that love that is in Christ - not what you said. You should not try and change words written to fit your beliefs. It's not right. It does not say nothing can seperate us from Christ.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

None of the verses speak of losing salvation.

Given your position here, what should one do with 1 Cor 3:14-15?
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Does one "escape through hell", if all references to fire, flames or burning refer to hell?


Thanks for this honesty. But it's quite clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus said. That's eternal security.


That's not biblical teaching. That's Calvinistic teaching. Which is different from biblical teaching.

Well I'm unsure on that conclusion being that just a person's rewards being burned up in John 15. Actually unsure on both sides argued in this thread. You guys can battle it theologically. I was reading John and came on that chapter. Thought I would offer it, if it wasn't yet considered.

 

[Edward]

Has this been considered either?

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.../

v19 speaks of God taking someone out of the book of life, for whatever reason...so it is possible. So OSAS can not be absolutely true.

 

[WIP]

OK, I agree that any believer who turns away from God will be miserable here on here. No doubt. However, wouldn't you agree that WHEN such a person enters eternity WITH God, and WITHOUT his old sinful human nature, his attitude will markedly improve?

But aren't you making an assumption here?

edit: I suppose I could be as well because I have not yet entered heaven so I can't say with certainty but it does seem that the assumption that one would forget his/her desire to be out of heaven certainly could make it easier to accept the OSAS position from a human point of view.

 

[WIP]

hello WIP, dirtfarmer here

What are the scriptures that states that God forces salvation on any one?

If a person doesn't want to spend eternity with God all they have to do is reject the convicting of the Holy Ghost until their death and they are assured place in the lake of fire. There is no other alternative. You will either burn in the lake of fire or bask in the glory of the Lord, there is no third option.

Isn't this precisely what the OSNAS argument has been saying...one can reject and walk away from the gift of God?