salvation and the loss of it

[Nathan]

-
"Faith cometh by HEARING" something, = while the Holy Spirit convicts.

This means that a person can know the truth, but refuse to accept the truth.
These are the Hebrews in the book of Hebrews, who "were once enlightened"...and "if we sin willfully, there remaineth no more sacrifice".
Its THOSE people.
People who are convicted, and KNOW, but refuse to take the next step......as they are ENLIGHTENED by the Holy Spirit, but "SIN WILLFULLY" = by Refusing the rest of the WAY.
Jesus said of these Hebrews and all like them...."If you believe NOT that i am the Messiah, you will die in your sins".
And John 3:36 explains it as well.

Can a spiritually dead person know the truth?

What do you mean refuse "the rest of the way"? They accept some, but refuse the rest?

 

[Nathan]

They were already believers. That's why they followed the Lord out of Egypt.

This is how Paul described it in 1 Cor 10:
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.


This is another assumption from Calvinists about regeneration preceding faith, yet without any evidence.


No. He was simply acknowledging that all revelation comes from God. Which humans either accept (believe) or reject. Freely.

This is what the Bible says about the order of believing and regeneration in Eph 2:
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

So, we have been 'made alive with Christ'. Then Paul equated being "made alive" with "by grace you have been saved". I see this as a clarification of what being "made alive" means. iow, those who have been made alive are saved.

Then, he wrote this:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Here, we see that we "have been saved, through faith". The faith must be present in to be saved through it.

So, from v.5 and v.8 we know that faith precedes regeneration.

God saved a people out of Egypt before they believed in Him as Lord. It was only after they crossed the sea is it said they believed in the Lord. He brought them out of the land of Egypt, just like Christ was made manifest to destroy the works of the devil. Christ did this before anyone believes.

1Jo 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Exo 14:30-31
Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. Israel saw the great power that the LORD used against the Egyptians, so the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

Your on the right track I think with the passage in Ephesians. The key is that He saved us while we were dead. In other words, He does not give us life - then say "ok now, choose me or else.....".

He saved us while we were dead. Made us alive. We can only believe because of the faith that He gives us. That faith is a gift, and without it we cannot believe. We have to first receive that faith, then we can believe. That is the order that Paul puts it in.

Tit 3:3-7
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Regeneration comes as a result of the Spirit in a persons life - He is the same Spirit that brings to us faith. Faith and regeneration go hand in hand, we believe because we are made able to believe - so that ALL the glory goes to Him.

 

[Nathan]

Hm. How would one explain what Paul wrote in Rom 4:
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”


The phrase "will flow rivers of living water" refers to the Holy Spirit, by the very next phrase: "now this He said about the Spirit".

The verses do not even remotely suggest that no one can believe until the Spirit is 'poured out'. Which actually refers to the future promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which wasn't available to OT saints. Yet Abraham believed in spite of that.


That happens to be point #1 in TULIP. Their view of total depravity is that man cannot believe unless he has first been regeneration.

Yet, there isn't any Scriptures that say that.


I believe that since Christ died for everyone, that everyone is able to believe the gospel promise of eternal life. And I don't believe these verses even suggest that God chooses who will believe.

It is John 6:45 that explains who comes to Jesus; though everyone has been taught by God, only those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Him.
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

Abraham was only able to believe God because God gave him that faith. Abraham did not believe, then God gave him the faith. Abraham 'exercised' the faith he was given - the same way we do. Hear the key - God came to Abraham first, Abraham believed in God second.

You keep trying to line me up with Calvinists for some reason. I am sure you have a point behind it, but you should also know that your belief in how eternal security is defined comes straight from the Calvinist doctrine.

So do you believe that Mankind is actually good?

There are many passages that state a person cannot come to God on their own volition. Both direct and indirect.

Psa 14:1-3
To the choirmaster. Of David.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

Do you think mankind just all of a sudden wills up enough 'good' in himself to desire God, to believe in Him?

You quote John 6:45, do you see that it is God who first comes to man - then man in response believes in Christ?

 

[Gregg T]

Once you have been given the ability to believe...how could you not believe?

By not exercising that ability.

 

[Gregg T]

Thief on the cross. Which came first, his belief or Christs salvation?

Or what about the OT saints . . . Were they saved by grace through faith?

 

[Nathan]

By not exercising that ability.

That's actually impossible. Everyone believes something. It's just a matter of what you believe.

What you believe is what you will find yourself doing.

 

[Nathan]

Or what about the OT saints . . . Were they saved by grace through faith?

Yep.

 

[FreeGrace]

God saved a people out of Egypt before they believed in Him as Lord. It was only after they crossed the sea is it said they believed in the Lord.

That's not what 1 Cor 10:1-5 says.

He brought them out of the land of Egypt, just like Christ was made manifest to destroy the works of the devil. Christ did this before anyone believes.

Please provide supporting verses for your claims.

Exo 14:30-31
Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. Israel saw the great power that the LORD used against the Egyptians, so the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

Applying your 'analysis' of this verse to another verse;
But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.” Num 20:12

This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. Deut 32:51

One could conclude that Moses lost his salvation, or was never saved. To "not trust" and "break faith" means no faith.

Regeneration comes as a result of the Spirit in a persons life - He is the same Spirit that brings to us faith. Faith and regeneration go hand in hand, we believe because we are made able to believe - so that ALL the glory goes to Him.

Mph 2:5 and 8 show that faith precedes being made alive, or being born again.

 

[FreeGrace]

Abraham was only able to believe God because God gave him that faith.

You've made this point several times, but have not provided any verses that says this.

Abraham did not believe, then God gave him the faith.

How are you using the word 'faith'; as a noun or verb. If as a verb, then believing and having faith are the same. But if as a noun, then 'faith' becomes what is believed.

You keep trying to line me up with Calvinists for some reason.

Only because of some of the things you've posted.

I am sure you have a point behind it, but you should also know that your belief in how eternal security is defined comes straight from the Calvinist doctrine.

No, it comes from what the Bible says about it.

So do you believe that Mankind is actually good?

No. Not at all. Mankind is totally depraved, which means unable to save themselves. But that doesn't mean they can't believe in their lost state.

There are many passages that state a person cannot come to God on their own volition. Both direct and indirect.

I disagree with this.

Psa 14:1-3
To the choirmaster. Of David.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

Please note in v.1 the subject of this section: "the fool who says, 'there is no God'." It's about atheists.

Do you think mankind just all of a sudden wills up enough 'good' in himself to desire God, to believe in Him?

It isn't about what one "wills up". It's about hearing the gospel and believing it as truth. Rom 10:
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

And this is where one believes from:
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

One believes from their own heart.

You quote John 6:45, do you see that it is God who first comes to man - then man in response believes in Christ?

Absolutely correct!! God has already made the first move. All that's left is for man to respond to God's promise.

 

[FreeGrace]

Gregg T said: ↑
By not exercising that ability.

That's actually impossible. Everyone believes something. It's just a matter of what you believe.

Do you believe everything you hear? I think that was his point. If you don't believe everything you hear, then it's those things that you don't accept or believe that you don't 'exercise that ability'.

What you believe is what you will find yourself doing.

Not exactly what Paul said about himself:
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. Rom 7

 

[Nathan]

That's not what 1 Cor 10:1-5 says.


Please provide supporting verses for your claims.


Applying your 'analysis' of this verse to another verse;
But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.” Num 20:12

This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. Deut 32:51

One could conclude that Moses lost his salvation, or was never saved. To "not trust" and "break faith" means no faith.


Mph 2:5 and 8 show that faith precedes being made alive, or being born again.

Where does 1 Corinthians 10 state they believed in God before He would save them?

 

[Nathan]

You've made this point several times, but have not provided any verses that says this.


How are you using the word 'faith'; as a noun or verb. If as a verb, then believing and having faith are the same. But if as a noun, then 'faith' becomes what is believed.


Only because of some of the things you've posted.


No, it comes from what the Bible says about it.


No. Not at all. Mankind is totally depraved, which means unable to save themselves. But that doesn't mean they can't believe in their lost state.


I disagree with this.


Please note in v.1 the subject of this section: "the fool who says, 'there is no God'." It's about atheists.


It isn't about what one "wills up". It's about hearing the gospel and believing it as truth. Rom 10:
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

And this is where one believes from:
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

One believes from their own heart.


Absolutely correct!! God has already made the first move. All that's left is for man to respond to God's promise.

Did Abraham approach God first, or did God approach Abraham? It's based on that I know that God called Abraham before Abraham believed.

Depending on how the word faith is used makes it a verb, noun, pronoun, adjective, etc.

When is the last time you heard of a dead person doing anything, much less a spiritual dead person being able to do something?

 

[Nathan]

Gregg T said: ↑
By not exercising that ability.

Do you believe everything you hear? I think that was his point. If you don't believe everything you hear, then it's those things that you don't accept or believe that you don't 'exercise that ability'.


Not exactly what Paul said about himself:
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. Rom 7

I either believe what I hear is true, or false. But I do believe what I hear, simply because I hear it. Everyone believes something.

Paul is contrasting his flesh with his spirit. Not the fact he is doing something he does not believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does 1 Corinthians 10 state they believed in God before He would save them?

That wasn't my claim. Here's the passage that shows that they were already saved.
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

But, to your question, Paul clarifies the chronology between believing and being saved in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The tense for 'believe' is aorist, which means a point in time, or simple occurrence. And "will be saved" is future tense, showing that being saved follows believing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did Abraham approach God first, or did God approach Abraham? It's based on that I know that God called Abraham before Abraham believed.

God has always acted first. We see that in the Garden of Eden, when the LORD approached the couple after they rebelled.

Depending on how the word faith is used makes it a verb, noun, pronoun, adjective, etc.

My question was how it was meant in your statement.

When is the last time you heard of a dead person doing anything, much less a spiritual dead person being able to do something?

I won't guess as to when you came to faith in Christ, but all the time before that moment, the Bible considered you "dead in your sins". That's spiritual death. Were you able to "do something" before you believed? Of course you were.

Spiritual death has nothing to do with function. It has everything to do with being separated from God. Except for Adam and Eve, all humans are born physically alive but spiritually dead. And the Lake of Fire is also called "the second death". That is permanent separation from God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I either believe what I hear is true, or false. But I do believe what I hear, simply because I hear it. Everyone believes something.

Recall the post:
Gregg T said: ↑
By not exercising that ability.

By your own admission that you either believe something is true or false is the example of how "the ability to believe" works. You simply didn't exercise your ability to believe when presented a choice.

When you do believe something to be true, you've exercised your ability to believe. And did.

Paul is contrasting his flesh with his spirit. Not the fact he is doing something he does not believe.

Correct.

 

[Nathan]

Recall the post:
Gregg T said: ↑
By not exercising that ability.

By your own admission that you either believe something is true or false is the example of how "the ability to believe" works. You simply didn't exercise your ability to believe when presented a choice.

When you do believe something to be true, you've exercised your ability to believe. And did.


Correct.

And when you believe something to be false you exercise that ability. :wink

Point is, you can't not believe. You either believe something is true or false - no middle ground.

 

[Nathan]

That wasn't my claim. Here's the passage that shows that they were already saved.
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

But, to your question, Paul clarifies the chronology between believing and being saved in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The tense for 'believe' is aorist, which means a point in time, or simple occurrence. And "will be saved" is future tense, showing that being saved follows believing.

We have already gone over the fact that the aorist tense is ambiguous to us who do not use the Greek language.

We have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved - many different angles of the result of Christs work on the Cross.

Point is, a person can only believe because they have been saved - and in that belief they will be saved.

Jhn 10:25-26
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

 

[Nathan]

God has always acted first. We see that in the Garden of Eden, when the LORD approached the couple after they rebelled.


My question was how it was meant in your statement.


I won't guess as to when you came to faith in Christ, but all the time before that moment, the Bible considered you "dead in your sins". That's spiritual death. Were you able to "do something" before you believed? Of course you were.

Spiritual death has nothing to do with function. It has everything to do with being separated from God. Except for Adam and Eve, all humans are born physically alive but spiritually dead. And the Lake of Fire is also called "the second death". That is permanent separation from God.

I was able to do something, but I was not able to seek God. No one seeks God unless God first calls them. That is the separation that sin caused. Man cannot cross that separation apart from the power of God giving them the ability.

Being spiritually dead means you have zero connection to God. He has to cross the separation, give you the ability to believe, then you can believe.

1Pe 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[FreeGrace]

And when you believe something to be false you exercise that ability. :wink

Of course. Which is the point.

Point is, you can't not believe. You either believe something is true or false - no middle ground.

And, what is your point? Either way, you're exercising an ability to believe, or reject.