Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[K2CHRIST]

Respectfully, I don't see how making choices has anything to do with it. As far as I can tell, all of the animals and even the bugs make choices.

Vanity corrupts the spirit, which alters the way we see things, which alters our choices, just as blindness and ignorance affects our choices.

For example, the spirit behind freewill is founded upon the belief that the will is not subject to any higher power, for how else is it concluded that it is free to determine it's own course? I even believe that this is what Satan believed within himself, when he said in his heart, that he will ascend his throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. And this is what he preached in the garden of Eden when he said we could disobey God and live. Freewill is vanity. See the prodigal son.

Can you not see how repentance has anything to do with it?

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

Luk 13:3 & Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Oh course God still has the say and the plan! So we might need to include the words "if perhaps", yet Jesus is God and it was Him who said "but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" Those are specifically God's words!! and so they must be true!!

WE HAVE CHOICES AND THOSE CHOICES DO INFLUENCE GOD! Perhaps a bug has a choice also, and perhaps a bug's choices influence others also. Some bugs really bother me and I kill them if I see them. Other bugs I like and I choice to look at them. What type of bug are we going to be in God's eyes? Are we going to bug God with our evil actions, or are we going to please God with our actions? The failure to see that it makes a difference is foolishness and a foolishness that is pointed our often in the Bible!!

We all have some vanity, but which person has more vanity, the person that says that God chooses so I don't see where I have to repent, or the person that see that I can make choices to please God to they turn to Him and choose to listen!!

There are things that we need to see. It is not wise to say "I don't see how making choices has anything to do with it". We can choose to repent, and those that wrote the Bible have made it clear repentance (which is our choice) is an importance choice to make, so "if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Repentance is an important choice for us to make, considering God said, "except ye repent, ye shall like wise perish."

Is it really not obvious that God takes our choices into consideration? Vanity has gotten in the way of a lot of people, and especially with those people unwilling to repent!

 

[Cygnus]

Can you not see how repentance has anything to do with it?

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

Luk 13:3 & Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Oh course God still has the say and the plan! So we might need to include the words "if perhaps", yet Jesus is God and it was Him who said "but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" Those are specifically God's words!! and so they must be true!!

WE HAVE CHOICES AND THOSE CHOICES DO INFLUENCE GOD! Perhaps a bug has a choice also, and perhaps a bug's choices influence others also. Some bugs really bother me and I kill them if I see them. Other bugs I like and I choice to look at them. What type of bug are we going to be in God's eyes? Are we going to bug God with our evil actions, or are we going to please God with our actions? The failure to see that it makes a difference is foolishness and a foolishness that is pointed our often in the Bible!!

We all have some vanity, but which person has more vanity, the person that says that God chooses so I don't see where I have to repent, or the person that see that I can make choices to please God to they turn to Him and choose to listen!!

There are things that we need to see. It is not wise to say "I don't see how making choices has anything to do with it". We can choose to repent, and those that wrote the Bible have made it clear repentance (which is our choice) is an importance choice to make, so "if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Repentance is an important choice for us to make, considering God said, "except ye repent, ye shall like wise perish."

Is it really not obvious that God takes our choices into consideration? Vanity has gotten in the way of a lot of people, and especially with those people unwilling to repent!

Sometimes a definition of repentance is required. Currently I see two of them..
1) Stop trying to save yourself and rely on Jesus....Turn from self salvation towards Jesus.

2) As a christian and you walk in Christ...you should be changing your ways and becoming more Christ like. Sanctification working.

I think a lot of people think repentance towards salvation is putting on their goody-two-shoes...when in reality it's doing it Gods way.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I don't have a problem with predestination, but I often have a problem with those preaching predestination instead of Jesus Christ. Certainly God knows what His plans are and brings them to past, but God also gave us a freewill to make choices. God must know what choices we will make, but we still make them. So we need to make good choices, regardless of whether God knew what we would do or not.

So God knew who would repent and seek Him and ask Him what to do? What does that have to do with us choosing to do that or not? You either do that or you don't, the choice is yours even if God knew, planned, and caused you to make it. So you can repent, and the Bible tells you to do that, and start seeking the Lord and by faith listen and do what He wants you to or not. Of you can say to yourself that God has already planned it so I don't have to seek God and concern myself with doing what is right or not. Hey, God knows if you were going to be that way or not also. So who did God choose and predestine to have life eternal, wasn't it those He made to seek and follow after Him?

We need to ask ourselves what type of person we are and stop making excesses to ourselves. And that is the problem I have with those preaching predestination instead of preaching Jesus Christ. Preaching predestination means telling people they are chosen and thereby excludes repentance and effort to try and be better. But God includes those who repent and do try to be better by seeking Him. So I preach Jesus Christ and seeking Him. Yeah, He knew who would seek Him and even made us and planned for us, but if you are included in His plan you will seek His voice and His personal instructions to you.

If you are indeed included in God's plan you will repent of your ways and turn to His ways. And if you are really counting on predestination to save you, are you not missing that personal relationship with God who says to repent and do things right according to what He personally tells you?

 

[K2CHRIST]

Sometimes a definition of repentance is required. Currently I see two of them..
1) Stop trying to save yourself and rely on Jesus....Turn from self salvation towards Jesus.

2) As a christian and you walk in Christ...you should be changing your ways and becoming more Christ like. Sanctification working.

I think a lot of people think repentance towards salvation is putting on their goody-two-shoes...when in reality it's doing it Gods way.

Is not repentance a turn from your ways? So I only see one definition of repentance and that is seeking God and doing what He wants, otherwise you never were turning from your ways (repenting).

So I would say that a person who repented is not changing His ways to become more like Christ, but rather is listening to and doing what Jesus Christ tells them so they are not doing there things but His. Thus they didn't change themselves but God changed them by given His instructions to them who now listen to Him and follow His instructions and not there own ways.

 

[Cygnus]

Is not repentance a turn from your ways? So I only see one definition of repentance and that is seeking God and doing what He wants, otherwise you never were turning from your ways (repenting).

So I would say that a person who repented is not changing His ways to become more like Christ, but rather is listening to and doing what Jesus Christ tells them so they are not doing there things but His. Thus they didn't change themselves but God changed them by given His instructions to them who now listen to Him and follow His instructions and not there own ways.

Now you're splitting hairs.
The first act of repentance is belief....the second act is what you speak of.

 

[Butch5]

What???

The word is only used twice in Scripture. Jesus uses it speaking of His return. The other occurrence is form Paul, who uses it metaphorically for water baptism, "the washing of regeneration". Remember Paul said that a Christian was to walk in "newness of life". Either wya both occur after one believes

 

[K2CHRIST]

Now you're splitting hairs.
The first act of repentance is belief....the second act is what you speak of.

Belief is belief. Repentance is turning from our ways to His ways. You may have to have some level of belief to repent, but perhaps no more than the size of a mustard seed, and we can probably all get that amount of belief. That amount of belief, as Jesus pointed out, is all the belief need to say to "this mountain" (which is the mountain of transfiguration where the Father spoke "This is My beloved Son in whom I am will pleased, "Listen to Him".) move. We can pray "Thy Kingdom Come" and get the King who has a kingdom, and then listen to that King and do what He says. Then we have turned from our ways to His. That is repentance, and I am not splitting hairs. We need to listen to Him and do what He says and not scoff at the possibility of listening to Him, thereby continuing in our ways.

 

[Cygnus]

Belief is belief. Repentance is turning from our ways to His ways. You may have to have some level of belief to repent, but perhaps no more than the size of a mustard seed, and we can probably all get that amount of belief. That amount of belief, as Jesus pointed out, is all the belief need to say to "this mountain" (which is the mountain of transfiguration where the Father spoke "This is My beloved Son in whom I am will pleased, "Listen to Him".) move. We can pray "Thy Kingdom Come" and get the King who has a kingdom, and then listen to that King and do what He says. Then we have turned from our ways to His. That is repentance, and I am not splitting hairs. We need to listen to Him and do what He says and not scoff at the possibility of listening to Him, thereby continuing in our ways.

From Got questions.

Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ.

 

[WIP]

Please note that personal views should be able to be supported by Scripture. Opinions come and go like the wind but the Truth is what we seek. Please consider the Forum Guidelines when posting.

 

[childeye]

Can you not see how repentance has anything to do with it?

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

Luk 13:3 & Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

I've noticed that you've said this in another post, "is not repentance a turn from your ways?". So if you mean a person should repent from thinking they have a freewill to choose to do whatever they please, while in fact they are in the kingdom of darkness and serve a false god, then I agree with you. To be in the Kingdom of Light, one must confess that the God of Light is Lord. The Kingdom of God resides in the heart of a person, for Jesus is the seed that grows there. Luke 17:21. The seed which is the Word, changes the heart and therefore changes the person, along with their thoughts, their desires, and finally their choices.

Oh course God still has the say and the plan! So we might need to include the words "if perhaps", yet Jesus is God and it was Him who said "but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" Those are specifically God's words!! and so they must be true!!

I'm certain that they are True.

WE HAVE CHOICES AND THOSE CHOICES DO INFLUENCE GOD! Perhaps a bug has a choice also, and perhaps a bug's choices influence others also. Some bugs really bother me and I kill them if I see them. Other bugs I like and I choice to look at them. What type of bug are we going to be in God's eyes? Are we going to bug God with our evil actions, or are we going to please God with our actions? The failure to see that it makes a difference is foolishness and a foolishness that is pointed our often in the Bible!!

We're spinning our wheels discussing that choices matter. Since I am discussing the thoughts and intentions that ultimately will determine our choice, I am not even debating against you that we make choices. And I acknowledge that our actions do matter since they affect others. But God knows the thoughts of our minds and the intentions of our hearts even before they manifest the completely predictable choice. Hence good bugs make good choices, and bad bugs make bad choices. What I think bugs God, is when a bug thinks that there is no false god ruling at the heart of the bad bug influencing his choices, and no True God ruling in the heart of the good bug influencing his choices. That is vanity, and that is freewill. It's the bugs that are either good or bad, the choices just reflect that. Matthew 12:33. I think to discuss choice, it is more a matter of flesh vs. spirit.

We all have some vanity, but which person has more vanity, the person that says that God chooses so I don't see where I have to repent, or the person that see that I can make choices to please God to they turn to Him and choose to listen!!

Vanity is when a person hears wisdom from God and they think it's them, and become enamored with themselves. It doesn't matter how much good they choose to do, since they do it out of vanity, without any consideration of thankfulness to God. Hence no humility, and no True worship of God. See the Pharisees looking down their noses at the sinners. So your question should be, Which person has more vanity, the person who thinks that God chooses the lowly and humble to speak to and hear wisdom, or the one who thinks we all choose to hear or not hear?

There are things that we need to see. It is not wise to say "I don't see how making choices has anything to do with it". We can choose to repent, and those that wrote the Bible have made it clear repentance (which is our choice) is an importance choice to make, so "if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Repentance is an important choice for us to make, considering God said, "except ye repent, ye shall like wise perish."

I was talking about vanity when I said that. But I don't even see repentance as a freely made choice/decision. First off, choice is simply too casual of a term to use about such a deep issue. True repentance requires a sincere sorrow. A person cannot be sorry for something they have done, unless they first see how it has hurt others. And we must have enough Love to even care whether or not we hurt someone. We don't choose to have love or not to. I believe that the call to repentance is the same as saying "you're all sinners, admit it and come to God in humility". This requires humility and honesty to accept. Matthew 5:3. Matthew 5:6. This is why the seed of the Word requires good soil, if it is to be productive and bear good fruit. Matthew 13:23.

Secondly and contrariwise, it's not a choice, because some people are too vain to even want to hear it, lest they be reproved and their self imagery be shattered. Finally, it is a choice/option, but only because the call to repent forces the issue. Once a person is called a sinner, he must out of sheer circumstance, consider whether it is true or not. That happens because an option is being made present, and not because the hearer volunteered to decide. But not everyone can even understand the Kingdom of God when it is presented, mush less make a knowledgeable choice. Matthew 13:19.

Is it really not obvious that God takes our choices into consideration? Vanity has gotten in the way of a lot of people, and especially with those people unwilling to repent!

As I said God, doesn't really take our choices into consideration, He knows the intentions and thoughts before the choice and He therefore already knows which way we will choose. The reason the choice matters is more for the record, but the intentions and thoughts that precede the choice definitely matter, and the subsequent action is the fruit thereof.

 

[childeye]

Is not repentance a turn from your ways? So I only see one definition of repentance and that is seeking God and doing what He wants, otherwise you never were turning from your ways (repenting).

So I would say that a person who repented is not changing His ways to become more like Christ, but rather is listening to and doing what Jesus Christ tells them so they are not doing there things but His. Thus they didn't change themselves but God changed them by given His instructions to them who now listen to Him and follow His instructions and not there own ways.

I have no doubt that you must be referring to the Holy Spirit of Truth Who guides us in all Truth when you speak of listening to God. I appreciate that you exhort people to choose to trust in Love. For God is Love and He is Spirit. When God speaks about our interaction with others, His voice is the voice that commands out of a compassion for others. We must worship Him as such, so as to love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. To love others as you would want to be loved, requires Love. But it should be emphasized that Love is a Spirit that doesn't appear and disappear in our hearts at our choosing.
Luke 10:33
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
You see this scripture above? The priest and the Levite, who both are deemed to be authority figures over the things of God, did not show compassion, but rather turned aside to avoid having to deal with compassion, while the Samaritan did not. This is the difference between good will and freewill. Love is all that counts in any act of goodwill.

1 Corinthians 13:1-5New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

 

[OzSpen]

Are you a universalist? All humankind will be saved?

Of course I'm not a universalist. That's a heretical doctrine. However, I'm a Titusian. I support the exegesis of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

It could be time for you to investigate the meaning of this verse in context. It DOES NOT teach Universalism.

Oz

 

[Cygnus]

Of course I'm not a universalist. That's a heretical doctrine. However, I'm a Titusian. I support the exegesis of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

It could be time for you to investigate the meaning of this verse in context. It DOES NOT teach Universalism.

Oz

The way you posted it sure sounded like you were.

 

[OzSpen]

The way you posted it sure sounded like you were.

Why don't you exegete the meaning of Titus 2:11 (ESV) in context and tell us its meaning?

 

[K2CHRIST]

I have no doubt that you must be referring to the Holy Spirit of Truth Who guides us in all Truth when you speak of listening to God. I appreciate that you exhort people to choose to trust in Love. For God is Love and He is Spirit. When God speaks about our interaction with others, His voice is the voice that commands out of a compassion for others. We must worship Him as such, so as to love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. To love others as you would want to be loved, requires Love. But it should be emphasized that Love is a Spirit that doesn't appear and disappear in our hearts at our choosing.
Luke 10:33
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
You see this scripture above? The priest and the Levite, who both are deemed to be authority figures over the things of God, did not show compassion, but rather turned aside to avoid having to deal with compassion, while the Samaritan did not. This is the difference between good will and freewill. Love is all that counts in any act of goodwill.

1 Corinthians 13:1-5New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Do we listen to the Lord? Is His the voice that "commands out compassion? Well yeah He does, but I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, at least not normally. It is a softer voice than that normally. It's more like "Karl would you go help that person or in that place. His voice really only comes across as a "command" when I haven't been listening to Him. The first time I head His voice it came as a "command" - which was "READ YOUR BIBLE". I then did that and I started listening to Him more and more, and we became friends. He is still my Lord but since God does want compassion His voice friendly like One who does have compassion. So His instructions, and He does give me instruction daily, are now hard to think of as "commands", and especially in the area of having compassion.

For example, three of us were praying for a man in a wheel chair recently. He had asked me to be there, We listened, we prayed and the Lord gave me specific instructions for praying on the side of them man, and to another for the feet of the man, and to the other man with us the legs of the man. So we all had instructions and them instructions were for healing, and some feeling miraculously did come back but certainly so much more was needed and hoped for.

So what about boasting, a person might say. Well if I am boasting it is in the Lord. Even my relationship and the instructions come from the Lord. Never-the-less I have choices to follow the Lord or not. I have a choice to listen to Him or not. So I do, but does that make me think I am some great man.

Jesus gives a record of people coming before Him on that day saying, there are worthless servant because they only did what He told them. And that is the way it is. He tells me to do things so I do them. Incredible things happen and so I tell people to listen and follow Him. Then someone will say that I am boasting and full of pride. Are they right? No, I am like the men that said they were worthless servant doing only what He told them. But those worthless men who only did what He told them were at least listening to Him and doing what He told them. So you can bet they knew what His voice of compassion sound like. It is a friendly small loving voice in which "command" doesn't really describe very well. At least it is that way to those that listen.

Paul mentioned something about boasting not being profitable but still necessary. I boast in the Lord even by my telling people to listen to Him. But if someone doesn't listen to Him are they going to listen to me telling them to listen to Him. My hope is that they will, so my boasting in Him is necessary. But if they are picking up His voice of compassion as "commands" instead of wise friendly instructions, it makes me wonder how much they are picking up His voice.

He once told me, "As instructions are givens to servants, wisdom to sons, jokes to friends, so 'I love you' is said to a bride."

The point is that how we stand with God has a lot to do with how He talks to us. I often hear Him tell me "I love you". That is not a "command", but there is lots of compassion in it. So I have a really hard time understanding why someone would write, "His voice is the voice that commands out of a compassion for others" That doesn't describe Him well at all.

And does " We must worship Him" describe my reason for worshiping Him. No, not at all. He never told me that I had to or must worship Him! He once told me, "Karl, I don't need you to worship me, but you should worship me. It's like a father who has a child that comes and sits on his lap. He does need the child to do that, but he loves it and it is a wise thing for the child to do. Because it is that thing that causes the father's love to shine forth on the child."

And while God is always with me, I still can ignore him and go my way, or I can seek Him and His words and follow Him. So what is the wisdom in saying, "Love is a Spirit that doesn't appear and disappear in our hearts at our choosing" He is Omni-present and the Kingdom of God is in our midst, but are we going to turn to Him or not. Because He loves us He gave us life and the ability to choose Him or not. And I would how much we do choose Him if we don't understand what it is like to actually hear His voice daily?

We can have a personal relationship with God, via our Lord Jesus Christ, which we can hear from via the Spirit of God which is the spirit of Christ. And if we get to know Him certainly we know He loves us not only as a servant, but as a son, a friend, and even as a bride. We hear Him tell us 'I love you', and He speaks softly to us. So where and how does a person come to think of His voice as commands and must worship? It just doesn't make sense to me anymore. It once would have made sense to me, but that was before I really got to know Him well.

We need to get to know the Lord. We need to seek His voice regularly. We need to choose to develop a close personal relationship with Him. We need to get to a point where we hear Him tell us He loves us regularly like a husband might talk to His bride that He loves.

 

[childeye]

So what about boasting, a person might say. Well if I am boasting it is in the Lord. Even my relationship and the instructions come from the Lord. Never-the-less I have choices to follow the Lord or not. I have a choice to listen to Him or not. So I do, but does that make me think I am some great man.

The issue is do men have a freewill or can God make a man choose a certain way? Or do men freely choose to be vain and not vain? Do men freely choose to have Love and not have Love? Do men freely choose to be good or evil? Can any person freely choose to believe or not believe in Jesus, or does God reveal His son when He chooses?

Paul is not suggesting that a person boasts because they listen to God in faithfulness. Paul is saying that no man can boast because God chooses to favor the lowly and the poor according to His Wisdom, so that He makes the lowly able to understand, what He hides from those who are esteemed as wise, learned and prudent in the eyes of the world. 1 Corinthians 1:27, James 2:5. He does this to show that true wisdom comes from God and not men's freewill choice, or to rephrase, according to His grace and not our works. See what Jesus says about it in this scripture. Matthew 11:25.

Jesus gives a record of people coming before Him on that day saying, there are worthless servant because they only did what He told them.

It means to me, I am nothing special because I only did what I should do. Good scriptural reference on the topic.

Paul mentioned something about boasting not being profitable but still necessary. I boast in the Lord even by my telling people to listen to Him.

Boasting in the Lord is not the same as boasting in one's own self. Just as trusting in God is not the same as trusting in Satan.

He once told me, "As instructions are givens to servants, wisdom to sons, jokes to friends, so 'I love you' is said to a bride."

I like that.

The point is that how we stand with God has a lot to do with how He talks to us. I often hear Him tell me "I love you". That is not a "command", but there is lots of compassion in it. So I have a really hard time understanding why someone would write, "His voice is the voice that commands out of a compassion for others" That doesn't describe Him well at all.

I'm sorry you didn't understand. I tried to qualify what I meant. Here is what I said, "When God speaks about our interaction with others, His voice is the voice that commands out of a compassion for others". Please notice that I am talking specifically about our interaction with others (How we treat our fellow man). Then I also further qualified what I meant, by providing a scripture describing exactly what I mean. Luke 10:33.

And does " We must worship Him" describe my reason for worshiping Him. No, not at all. He never told me that I had to or must worship Him! He once told me, "Karl, I don't need you to worship me, but you should worship me. It's like a father who has a child that comes and sits on his lap. He does need the child to do that, but he loves it and it is a wise thing for the child to do. Because it is that thing that causes the father's love to shine forth on the child."

Respectfully, again you misunderstand. I didn't say "we must worship Him", as you have indicated. I said "we must worship Him as such". That "as such", is pertaining to the voice of empathy and compassion for others within us. Hence God is Love, and how valuable is Love? Love is of the Highest value, and I qualified that too, with scripture, to show exactly what I mean. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. NIV.

God doesn't need our worship, this is true. But we need to treasure His Spirit as the most valued object of our desire. Hence we must worship Him for our sake, not His. Hence the command to Love God with all your heart mind and soul, is the greatest commandment.

And while God is always with me, I still can ignore him and go my way, or I can seek Him and His words and follow Him. So what is the wisdom in saying, "Love is a Spirit that doesn't appear and disappear in our hearts at our choosing"

1 John 4:8. God is Love, I hope you know this. The words in Italics simply state that we don't conjure God/Love out of thin air by our will. To rephrase, "we don't create God/Love at our discretion".

We need to get to know the Lord. We need to seek His voice regularly. We need to choose to develop a close personal relationship with Him. We need to get to a point where we hear Him tell us He loves us regularly like a husband might talk to His bride that He loves.

You'll get no argument from me about that. I'm simply arguing that we don't have a freewill according to the dictionary definition.

 

[Mike]

Of course I'm not a universalist. That's a heretical doctrine. However, I'm a Titusian. I support the exegesis of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

It could be time for you to investigate the meaning of this verse in context. It DOES NOT teach Universalism.

Oz

The way you posted it sure sounded like you were.

Oz has a valid point. I've seen you accuse or question others of universalism and that is a strong statement. You have no doubt read enough of him to know he does not support universalism. True universalism is heresy and isn't even permitted on CFnet. Based on the one statement that you drew your conclusion on, would you say 1 Timothy 2:4 preaches this theology? I'll answer for you. No, you wouldn't.

Kindly refrain from planting this notion in the camp of others unless they are blatantly stating that all will have salvation and no one will be lost. You are better than that.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz has a valid point. I've seen you accuse or question others of universalism and that is a strong statement. You have no doubt read enough of him to know he does not support universalism. True universalism is heresy and isn't even permitted on CFnet. Based on the one statement that you drew your conclusion on, would you say 1 Timothy 2:4 preaches this theology? I'll answer for you. No, you wouldn't.

Kindly refrain from planting this notion in the camp of others unless they are blatantly stating that all will have salvation and no one will be lost. You are better than that.

Thanks, Mike. That's very well stated and it confirms my position.

Oz

 

[K2CHRIST]

The issue is do men have a freewill or can God make a man choose a certain way? Or do men freely choose to be vain and not vain? Do men freely choose to have Love and not have Love? Do men freely choose to be good or evil? Can any person freely choose to believe or not believe in Jesus, or does God reveal His son when He chooses?

Ecc 2:1 "Vanity of vanities", say the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity

King Solomon in his wisdom understood all men had vanity, and that included Him. But He still had choices. They had the choice to listen to God or not. Solomon heard from the Lord and bought men words from God says to listen to God. He did that and knew that because He did listen to God.

Prov 8:1 Dos not wisdom call and understanding lift up her voice?

Prov 8:4 To you, O men, I call, and my voice is to the sons of men.

Prov 8:6 Listen, for I will speak noble things.

Prov 8:12 I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

Prov 8 :14 Counsel in mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding.

Prov 8:17 I love those who love me; and those who diligently seek me will find me.

Prov 8:32 Now therefore, O son, listen to Me.

So all theses Scriptures and so much more telling men to listen and some think we don't have a choice to listen or not? What sense does that make? None.

 

[childeye]

Ecc 2:1 "Vanity of vanities", say the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity

King Solomon in his wisdom understood all men had vanity, and that included Him. But He still had choices. They had the choice to listen to God or not. Solomon heard from the Lord and bought men words from God says to listen to God. He did that and knew that because He did listen to God.

Prov 8:1 Dos not wisdom call and understanding lift up her voice?

Prov 8:4 To you, O men, I call, and my voice is to the sons of men.

Prov 8:6 Listen, for I will speak noble things.

Prov 8:12 I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

Prov 8 :14 Counsel in mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding.

Prov 8:17 I love those who love me; and those who diligently seek me will find me.

Prov 8:32 Now therefore, O son, listen to Me.

So all theses Scriptures and so much more telling men to listen and some think we don't have a choice to listen or not? What sense does that make? None.

Respectfully, you have misunderstood many things I say, and while it could be asserted that for some reason you have freely chosen not to hear me, yet in all honesty before God, I know that you have not freely chosen to do so. You have listened to me willingly and courteously, and yet you have not heard what I say so as to understand it. Respectfully and forthrightly, it appears to me that you don't actually understand what Freewill means and the implications thereof.

Prov 8:12 I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion. I have even given scripture showing God hiding valuable wisdom from otherwise wise and prudent people, and revealing it to little children, so that little children can sometimes know better than those who are wise and prudent adults. Hence my moniker childeye. My point was to show that people don't choose to listen or not listen in a scenario where God is hiding information from some, and revealing it to others.. Information is the knowledge that we reason upon, we then make our conclusions based upon that information, and ultimately decide accordingly. Vanity should be curtailed by such revelation that God can do this. But rather than agree that God is able to change what people will choose according to His power illustrated by this scripture and many more, instead, in vanity many overlook this, and instead insist that we still make the choice to listen and not listen as though this is applicable in a situation where God hides and reveals wisdom.

People who insist that they have a freewill, and that all people do, tend to conflate choice with choice, without even realizing it. For the term 'choice' has two different meanings, with only one meaning being applicable to proceeding from the will of the person. The two different meanings are choice/option, and choice/decision. In the moral purview, there is a choice/decision between the two directions/options. But since there is no such thing in the moral purview as a freely made option/choice, the existence of good and evil cannot be proof that the will of the person who decides between the two is a freewill. So it is, that freewill believers tend to convince themselves that they and others have a freewill by conflating the term choice/option with choice/decision. Respectfully, above it appears that you do this very thing, by saying that since there is a choice/option to listen or not listen, then it makes no sense that we don't have a freewill. Or as you said concerning King Solomon, "he still had choices", as if therefore it must necessarily follow that his will is free.

But you and I do agree that all men are subject to vanity and that is enough Truth, to then prove that men do not have a freewill. For if you recall, I have earlier pointed out, that the reason why people choose not to listen to the call to repentance is because of this vanity.
Vanity alters the will and corrupts the way a person sees things and the thought process. To think that I can voluntarily choose to not listen to God, and miss nothing, is vanity. This is somewhat hard to ponder due to semantics. For to think I might inadveratantly choose to not listen to God and miss something very important, is humility.