Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

Drew, regarding Romans 2:6-7, I believe there is a difference between God's Judgment and the Salvation that comes only by faith in Christ. I see no contradictions by Paul in seeing the we will be Judged by our works, as these will determine our rewards in heaven; not whether we are granted heaven to begin with. I don't see that this verse speaks in support of your argument.

Do you believe we will be rewarded in heaven for the good that we do? In other words, will some enter heaven who don't do as much good as others? This is a tough one for your premise, but if some are Granted heaven with less rewards, how much good must they do to be Granted heaven in the first place? The one who understands Salvation by faith says "none". And that's easy to quantify. :yes

We do good works in response to His Love; not to earn it. That's my understanding.

AMEN!!!

 

[Sinthesis]

This is not what Paul actually writes. I will ask you the same questions I asked another poster. Here is the text again:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Question: In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?

My answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, please?

Question: In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?

My answer is "what they have done" or "persistence in doing good".

What your answer, please?

When we read what Paul actually writes - and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.

Drew,
You error in claiming the "basis" for salvation is "our" works. They are not "our" works, but the works of the Holy Spirit which are accounted to us. Only God is good, thus only God's works are good. We can only "do" good if we submit our human will to God. Belief and faith are gifts from the Holy Spirit available to all, which mark those who have lain down their own will before God. This is not an act, but a surrender of action; inaction through which God operates to fill the void through Grace. Thus final salvation is based on how we actually gave up our life to live a life as Christ would. "Persistence in doing good" is an artifact of giving your life to your rightful master, God.

 

[glorydaz]

These are those who received Christ as Lord and Savior by faith, and have been "Born-again. The one's that didn't receive Christ are the one's that will not get eternal life...

The basis is a combination of the "characteristics" that are present in the "Born-again Spirit filled Christian...

Excellent point, Grubal. In order to see that, one must consider v. 8 as strongly as v. 7. Those who by patient continuance in well doing AS OPPOSED TO those who do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness. These are characteristics of the children of God vs. the children of the devil. This isn't about one's good deeds at all, but about whose children they are.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Salvation is based upon the "finished" work of Christ on the cross...We cannot depend on our works to please God. The Bible says, faith is what pleases God, not works. Works are "secondary" to our faith. And we only bring forth fruit/works because of the Holy Spirit that indwells within us...

Amen....Christ's finished work on the cross.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew,
You error in claiming the "basis" for salvation is "our" works. They are not "our" works, but the works of the Holy Spirit which are accounted to us. Only God is good, thus only God's works are good. We can only "do" good if we submit our human will to God. Belief and faith are gifts from the Holy Spirit available to all, which mark those who have lain down their own will before God. This is not an act, but a surrender of action; inaction through which God operates to fill the void through Grace. Thus final salvation is based on how we actually gave up our life to live a life as Christ would. "Persistence in doing good" is an artifact of giving your life to your rightful master, God.

"Surrender of action: inaction through which God operates to fill the void through Grace."......I love that, nicely put!

 

[reba]

Drew,
You error in claiming the "basis" for salvation is "our" works. They are not "our" works, but the works of the Holy Spirit which are accounted to us. Only God is good, thus only God's works are good. We can only "do" good if we submit our human will to God. Belief and faith are gifts from the Holy Spirit available to all, which mark those who have lain down their own will before God. This is not an act, but a surrender of action; inaction through which God operates to fill the void through Grace. Thus final salvation is based on how we actually gave up our life to live a life as Christ would. "Persistence in doing good" is an artifact of giving your life to your rightful master, God.

They are not "our" works, but the works of the Holy Spirit which are accounted to us.

I tend to shorten most of the user names you fixed yours!

 

[Webb]

Hi Sinthesis

Right! Anything God tells us to do is not a work of human righteousness or of working or buying or bargaining or earning our way into heaven but rather a work of God and of God alone----John 6:29.

 

[Drew]

Paul doesn't say eternal life is based on good works, but that a continuance in well doing is the outward manifestion of faith.

No.

This is simply not what the text actually says. How can we have a proper discussion if you do not accept what the text is clearly saying?

I actually agree that "persisting in doing good" is the outward manifestation of faith. But Paul is quite clear here - it is this "persistence" in doing good that is the basis for granting eternal life, even if we both agree that it is - to use your phrase - "the outward manifestation of faith".

glorydaz, I do not want to appear condescending, but how can you possibly read the following sentences and not conclude that the author is asserting that the basis, the grounds if you will, of getting eternal life is how we live:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If you read this statement to 1000 people who understand english, but have no religious bias whatsoever, they will all agree that the writer is asserting that this "God" person will grant eternal life based on, yes, behaviour - persistence in doing good.

Faith is nowhere mentioned here!!

I happen to agree with you that only those who have faith will "persist in doing good".

But the text says what it says: it is specifically those who persist in doing good who will get eternal life.

 

[Drew]

Drew,
You error in claiming the "basis" for salvation is "our" works. They are not "our" works, but the works of the Holy Spirit which are accounted to us.

You are obviously not familiar with my position on this matter.

I have, in many threads, been as clear as clear can be that, yes, it is not "our" works that save - it is the works generated by the Holy Spirit that save. I have clearly stated this once more in this very thread!

I want to be crystal clear about this: I believe that saving good works can only be done through the action of the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is given as an act of pure grace, by faith alone.

My position on this matter is clear.

 

[glorydaz]

No.

This is simply not what the text actually says. How can we have a proper discussion if you do not accept what the text is clearly saying?

I actually agree that "persisting in doing good" is the outward manifestation of faith. But Paul is quite clear here - it is this "persistence" in doing good that is the basis for granting eternal life, even if we both agree that it is - to use your phrase - "the outward manifestation of faith".

glorydaz, I do not want to appear condescending, but how can you possibly read the following sentences and not conclude that the author is asserting that the basis, the grounds if you will, of getting eternal life is how we live:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If you read this statement to 1000 people who understand english, but have no religious bias whatsoever, they will all agree that the writer is asserting that this "God" person will grant eternal life based on, yes, behaviour - persistence in doing good.

Faith is nowhere mentioned here!!

I happen to agree with you that only those who have faith will "persist in doing good".

But the text says what it says: it is specifically those who persist in doing good who will get eternal life.

Drew, this is what happens when you take one verse out of context. There is always grave danger in that, and your obsession with this verse is a good example of why one should not ever do so. Paul is explaining before and after this verse exactly what his meaning is.

Those same 1000 people could read that God hates Esau and insist then that God is not Love and hates certain people. We have one poster on this board who does that all the time. It's a danger, my friend.

 

[glorydaz]

You are obviously not familiar with my position on this matter.

I have, in many threads, been as clear as clear can be that, yes, it is not "our" works that save - it is the works generated by the Holy Spirit that save. I have clearly stated this once more in this very thread!


My position on this matter is clear.

Then why can't we let this verse stand on it's plain meaning as fits the whole Word of God? Paul is comparing the children of God who will persist in well doing to the children of the devil who persist in unrighteousness.

 

[kjb1769]

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves:​

​

​

​

it is the gift of God:​

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Drew]

Drew says-----God “will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Are you serious?

These are the words of Paul, not me!

Again:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Grubal says-----These are those who received Christ as Lord and Savior by faith, and have been "Born-again. The one's that didn't receive Christ are the one's that will not get eternal life...

I agree with this, but that is not what we are talking about.

We are talking about what Paul is saying in Romans 2:6-7.

The fact that I agree with Paul that only those who are born-again through faith will get eternal life does not mean that I then turn around and disagree with this statement of Paul's:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Do you, or do you not agree with this statement of Paul's?

You, like many others, appear to come to this text already committed to the notion that if we are saved by faith, it cannot also be the case that the "test" of the reality of that faith, and therefore the basis for the awarding of eternal life, is "good works".

And yet that is precisely what Paul says here - it is those who persist in "doing good" that get eternal life.

 

[Drew]

Then why can't we let this verse stand on it's plain meaning as fits the whole Word of God? Paul is comparing the children of God who will persist in well doing to the children of the devil who persist in unrighteousness.

Because that is not what the text actually says!

The text is not simply such a comparison! It is a clear, unambiguous assertion that God gives eternal life to those who persist in doing good ,whatever else it may say.

 

[Drew]

Drew says----- In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?

Grubal----- The basis is a combination of the "characteristics" that are present in the "Born-again Spirit filled Christian...

Are you reading the actual text? Here it is again:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will ask again, what does this text say is the basis for getting eternal life.

You have answered that it is:

a combination of the "characteristics" that are present in the "Born-again Spirit filled Christian.

Where is such a thing asserted in this text?

 

[Drew]

Drew says-----When we read what Paul actually writes and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.

Grubal-----Salvation is based upon the "finished" work of Christ on the cross...We cannot depend on our works to please God.

I have never denied what you are saying, although I concede you would have needed to read all my posts to understand this.

I am not denying that faith is needed to be saved and that it assures final salvation (unless the person entirely turns their back on the faith). I have also clearly asserted that it is not "our works" that save - the works that will be the basis for our final salvation are those generated in us by the Spirit.

But, unlike you it seems, I also believe these words:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The Bible says, faith is what pleases God, not works. Works are "secondary" to our faith. And we only bring forth fruit/works because of the Holy Spirit that indwells within us...

True enough, but Romans 2:6-7 still says what it says!

I suggest that, in the Romans 2 text, it is clear that Paul is asserting that, at the end, it is how we have lived, whether we have persisted in doing good, that will be the basis for the awarding of eternal life.

Again, why do not agree with the clear implication of Romans 2:6-7?

 

[glorydaz]

God hated Esau....therefore, God hates some people. Is that what you believe, Drew?

Once again, you're taking the verse out of context. You must take the verses that surround it. Paul is not saying what you're claiming. It is a comparison between the godly and the ungodly. I have a feeling you will hang onto this verse until the Lord takes you home and explains it in detail.

 

[Drew]

I believe the real problem here is this:

People correctly believe that one we put our faith in Jesus, our final salvation is basically assured. Fine - this idea is asserted all over the place in the New Testament. I entirely accept this idea.

But then such people make a Biblically unjustified, and otherwise illogical move - they assume that believing the above is incompatible with also believing that, at the final judgement, it will be our "deeds" that are the basis of salvation, which is what Paul is clearly asserting in Romans 2:6-7.

But there is no incompatiblility if we allow the following (which Paul asserts elsewhere anyway): The person who accepts Christ by faith, and faith alone, is then given the Spirit, and the Spirit then transforms that person into one who produces the good works that will be the basis of the awarding of salvation at the final judgement.

At the end of the day, we need to accept the truthfulness of Romans 2:6-7.

 

[Drew]

God hated Esau....therefore, God hates some people. Is that what you believe, Drew?

Once again, you're taking the verse out of context. You must take the verses that surround it. Paul is not saying what you're claiming. It is a comparison between the godly and the ungodly. I have a feeling you will hang onto this verse until the Lord takes you home and explains it in detail.

I am simply believing what Paul is saying.

You, and others, are placed in the extremely challenging position of explaining why Paul would say that people are given eternal life based on persistence in doing good (equivalently, "what they have done", from verse 6), when he does not really believe this!!!

Does that not strike you as odd? Where is the evidence that Paul does not really believe this? Has he prefaced the statement with a "this is how you would be saved if it were not for salvation by faith" disclaimer?

In my last post, I have explained precisely how what Paul says here is not incompatible with his other statements about salvation by faith.

I see not one shred of evidence to believe that Paul does not mean exactly what he says here.

And, yes, I believe the statement about Jacob and Esau.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No.

This is simply not what the text actually says. How can we have a proper discussion if you do not accept what the text is clearly saying?

I actually agree that "persisting in doing good" is the outward manifestation of faith. But Paul is quite clear here - it is this "persistence" in doing good that is the basis for granting eternal life, even if we both agree that it is - to use your phrase - "the outward manifestation of faith".

glorydaz, I do not want to appear condescending, but how can you possibly read the following sentences and not conclude that the author is asserting that the basis, the grounds if you will, of getting eternal life is how we live:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If you read this statement to 1000 people who understand english, but have no religious bias whatsoever, they will all agree that the writer is asserting that this "God" person will grant eternal life based on, yes, behaviour - persistence in doing good.

Faith is nowhere mentioned here!!

I happen to agree with you that only those who have faith will "persist in doing good".

But the text says what it says: it is specifically those who persist in doing good who will get eternal life.

The basis and foundation of our "Salvation" is ONLY, Christ, and Him crucified. We must interpret Scripture on this, number one premise. If we don't, then we get lost in the misrepresentation of other Scripture. We are NOT saved by, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, AND our works. It's one way or the other, and Jesus said it best, "I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by me...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I have never denied what you are saying, although I concede you would have needed to read all my posts to understand this.

I am not denying that faith is needed to be saved and that it assures final salvation (unless the person entirely turns their back on the faith). I have also clearly asserted that it is not "our works" that save - the works that will be the basis for our final salvation are those generated in us by the Spirit.

But, unlike you it seems, I also believe these words:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


True enough, but Romans 2:6-7 still says what it says!

I suggest that, in the Romans 2 text, it is clear that Paul is asserting that, at the end, it is how we have lived, whether we have persisted in doing good, that will be the basis for the awarding of eternal life.

Again, why do not agree with the clear implication of Romans 2:6-7?

Again, Paul is referencing the "characteristics" of a TRUE believer in Christ, and NOT referencing works in general...The main focus is, "Christ and Him crucified, for you and I and every human being..."