Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Drew]

"Extremely" well stated!!!!

Well stated perhaps. But not Biblical, I suggest.

 

[Drew]

Drew said-----The fact that Paul asserts that all men have sinned does not, of course, mean that we cannot be transformed by God and then, through the Spirit, perform good works that ultimately save

Indeed. I did say this and am prepared to argue that this is the position that Paul embraces.

Grubal says-----Christ did not die for our sins, then turn around and expect us to "earn" our Salvation through "works."

Well, Paul says what he says!!

Why are you not answering the two questions I posed earlier today in post 134.

Let me be clear: I am not saying that we earn salvation through works that have their origin in our own unaided efforts. I am saying that it is the Holy Spirit working in us who produces the works by which we are judged, and consequently saved.

But Paul still means what he says:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Please answer the questions from post 134.

If you, or anyone, can explain to me how this text does not mean what it clearly says - that final salvation (eternal) life is based on "what we have done" - then by all means do so.

But I will not let this text drop - please deal with it.

 

[ivdavid]

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Question: In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?
My answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, please?

The same.

Question: In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?
My answer is "what they have done" or "persistence in doing good". What your answer, please?

The same.

we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.

I disagree.

Romans 2:6-8 speak of the principles of God's judgement. This is the way God will judge. And if we stop here, we are left with only justification by the law as stated in Rom 2:13. But we know that none are justified by the Law as stated in Rom 3:20, rather they are justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

Mentioning God's ways of judgement does not determine God's final ways of justification. Herein, I have no problem reconciling Rom 2 with my own beliefs on justification by imputed righteousness out of mercy/grace, and our sanctification unto holiness and good works.

 

[Drew]

Romans 2:6-8 speak of the principles of God's judgement. This is the way God will judge. And if we stop here, we are left with only justification by the law as stated in Rom 2:13. But we know that none are justified by the Law as stated in Rom 3:20, rather they are justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

I disagree and think you are placed in the exceedingly awkward position of having to explain how Paul is speaking hypothetically in Romans 2:6-7 - you appear to be saying that Paul is telling us how eternal life would be given, if it were not given on some other grounds.

Well, there is no evidence to support this, as I will argue in later posts.

For the present, I will say this:

What you appear to be suggesting means that, in Romans 2:6-7 Paul describes a coming judgement at which eternal life is granted based on good works, yet all the while believing nobody gets eternal life in that way. What kind of a confused and misleading writer would Paul have to be to do that? Does he given any indication at all, that he is describing a hypothetical path? No he does not. You have to read that in.

And people justify such a reading by claiming that Paul later denies "justification by works". Well he does, but when he refers to "works" in such statements, the context shows he is clearly talking about the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah - and not the category of good works. This is easy to show, but it will have to wait till later.

 

[ivdavid]

What you appear to be suggesting means that, in Romans 2:6-7 Paul describes a coming judgement at which eternal life is granted based on good works, yet all the while believing nobody gets eternal life in that way.

Depending on how you qualify "good works" here - and if it is what I hold to, I'd agree to the above statement as it's been stated. Though I'm pretty sure we are not referring to the same thing here semantically - but that's what we're here to discuss.

What kind of a confused and misleading writer would Paul have to be to do that?

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Just because it seems misleading to some, does not have to mean it is misleading to all, right?

Does he given any indication at all, that he is describing a hypothetical path?

You've acknowledged one of the reasons here - And people justify such a reading by claiming that Paul later denies "justification by works".

Well he does, but when he refers to "works" in such statements, the context shows he is clearly talking about the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah - and not the category of good works.

What's the difference between "good works" and "works of the Law", according to you?

 

[glorydaz]

Indeed. I did say this and am prepared to argue that this is the position that Paul embraces.


Well, Paul says what he says!!

Why are you not answering the two questions I posed earlier today in post 134.

Let me be clear: I am not saying that we earn salvation through works that have their origin in our own unaided efforts. I am saying that it is the Holy Spirit working in us who produces the works by which we are judged, and consequently saved.

But Paul still means what he says:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Please answer the questions from post 134.

If you, or anyone, can explain to me how this text does not mean what it clearly says - that final salvation (eternal) life is based on "what we have done" - then by all means do so.

But I will not let this text drop - please deal with it.

You and I have gone round and round with this text, and it would be so good to reach an agreement. We know the Bible does not contradict itself, and I'm sure you'd agree that Paul doesn't either. The problem, therefore, lies with us. In the past, I think I was only looking at one side of the coin, and I'm thinking you have been, as well. By explaining Romans 4 as a metaphor, it seems you may still be. Your persistance has forced me to look a little deeper.

First, we must see that Paul is speaking of only two groups of people. The first are those who seek for glory and honour and immortality, and, second, those who are contentious and do not obey the truth. There isn't a third group of people who are ordained to do good deeds because they have been saved through faith. So where do those people fit in? I submit it has to be in the first group.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Since the beginning, there have been those who have understood the eternal power of God. They have obeyed the dictates of their conscience as best they could...."patient continuance in well doing." They see the righteousness of God and "live by faith".

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

They were living by faith before they even knew what faith was. Which is, perhaps, why we see this...

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Nah! I think I'll just pass on it...

I know you will. Its not much to debate in that post is it ?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well stated perhaps. But not Biblical, I suggest.

I'm afraid I disagree with you, my friend...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I know you will. Its not much to debate in that post is it ?

I still choose to disagree with you. But, everyone has their own opinion to share. And you had your's on 100...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You and I have gone round and round with this text, and it would be so good to reach an agreement. We know the Bible does not contradict itself, and I'm sure you'd agree that Paul doesn't either. The problem, therefore, lies with us. In the past, I think I was only looking at one side of the coin, and I'm thinking you have been, as well. By explaining Romans 4 as a metaphor, it seems you may still be. Your persistance has forced me to look a little deeper.

First, we must see that Paul is speaking of only two groups of people. The first are those who seek for glory and honour and immortality, and, second, those who are contentious and do not obey the truth. There isn't a third group of people who are ordained to do good deeds because they have been saved through faith. So where do those people fit in? I submit it has to be in the first group.

Since the beginning, there have been those who have understood the eternal power of God. They have obeyed the dictates of their conscience as best they could...."patient continuance in well doing." They see the righteousness of God and "live by faith".

They were living by faith before they even knew what faith was. Which is, perhaps, why we see this...

As usual. Excellent truths...

 

[Drew]

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Just because it seems misleading to some, does not have to mean it is misleading to all, right?

Of course. But I see no reason whatsoever to not take Paul literally in chapter 2. You, like others, justify thinking that Paul is speaking hypothetically by asserting that, elsewhere, he denies salvation by good works.

But my point is that, in each of these cases where Paul denies salvation (justification) by "works", it is demonstrable that he is denying that one cannot be saved specifically by doing the works of the Law of Moses, that is, by being Jewish.

What you and others see as a denial of 'good works' justification, is instead a denial of justification that is only for Jews.

"What's the difference between "good works" and "works of the Law", according to you?

The works of the Law, for Paul, are the specific works of the Law of Moses, and only Jews can do such works precisely because the Law of Moses is for Jews and Jews only.

Good works, of course, are "general good moral actions".

Not the same thing at all.

 

[Drew]

I'm afraid I disagree with you, my friend...

This is now the second time I remind you.

Please answer the questions in post 134.

 

[Drew]

First, we must see that Paul is speaking of only two groups of people. The first are those who seek for glory and honour and immortality, and, second, those who are contentious and do not obey the truth.

Agree - In Romans this chunk of Romans 2, Paul has divided humanity into two groups: (1) those who "persist in doing good" and are given eternal life; and (2) those who "do evil" and are subject to wrath.

There isn't a third group of people who are ordained to do good deeds because they have been saved through faith. So where do those people fit in? I submit it has to be in the first group.

I agree - so if they are in the first group, they are saved, as Paul says, according to what they have done:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I see nothing in the rest of your post that comprises an argument as to why we should note take 2:6-7 just as it reads.

Be careful of begging the question - you appear to see "salvation by faith" as something that is not open to challenge. Well, that is precisely what we are debating.

The text says what it says!!! Whatever else is the case, we have to accept that those who are given eternal life are given that gift based on the good works their lives have manifested.

Please answer my two questions from post 137.

 

[lovely]

Drew, you said good works are 'general good moral actions'. I would define good works as following the Love laws, and we know love fulfills the law, and while I think it would include 'general good moral actions', it seems like it may be more than that too...like Godly sincere loving actions...action that is purposed, in a natural out-flowing of love kinda way, to promote the Gospel and be a picture of Christ to the receiver. I guess I'm wondering if that's what you mean too...since I would think that it falls into a good and moral action as well.

 

[Drew]

Drew, you said good works are 'general good moral actions'. I would define good works as following the Love laws, and we know love fulfills the law, and while I think it would include 'general good moral actions', it seems like it may be more than that too...like Godly sincere loving actions...action that is purposed, in a natural out-flowing of love kinda way, to promote the Gospel and be a picture of Christ to the receiver. I guess I'm wondering if that's what you mean too...since I would think that it falls into a good and moral action as well.

I am simply pointing out that the Law of Moses is a written code of laws given to Jews and Jews only. So no Gentile can do the "works" of the Law of Moses precisely because it is a set of laws given to Jews only. It is clear that Paul believes this - in the following text he explains that if salvation were based on the Law of Moses, only Jews could be saved:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one

And let me be clear: Just because I choose to believe Paul in Romans 2 where he asserts that final salvation is based on "good works" does not mean that I do not also believe that we are justified by faith.

I will try to explain why the "faith vs works" is a false choice in a later post.

 

[Mike]

This is now the second time I remind you.

Please answer the questions in post 134.

Drew, regarding Romans 2:6-7, I believe there is a difference between God's Judgment and the Salvation that comes only by faith in Christ. I see no contradictions by Paul in seeing the we will be Judged by our works, as these will determine our rewards in heaven; not whether we are granted heaven to begin with. I don't see that this verse speaks in support of your argument.

Do you believe we will be rewarded in heaven for the good that we do? In other words, will some enter heaven who don't do as much good as others? This is a tough one for your premise, but if some are Granted heaven with less rewards, how much good must they do to be Granted heaven in the first place? The one who understands Salvation by faith says "none". And that's easy to quantify. :yes

We do good works in response to His Love; not to earn it. That's my understanding.

 

[Lehigh3]

If one believes in salvation then that is because of faith in Christ.

I think through one's own personal relationship with the Lord, we find out what God's will is for us & what He would have us do. Our consciences (spirit mind) & hearts guide us along the way.

Good works should be a trait of a Christian. But salvation is a free gift. We don't earn our way for something that is free for all who thirst........

 

[Drew]

If one believes in salvation then that is because of faith in Christ.

I think through one's own personal relationship with the Lord, we find out what God's will is for us & what He would have us do. Our consciences (spirit mind) & hearts guide us along the way.

Good works should be a trait of a Christian. But salvation is a free gift. We don't earn our way for something that is free for all who thirst........

Please see post 134 and answer the two questions that are posed there.

 

[Drew]

Drew, regarding Romans 2:6-7, I believe there is a difference between God's Judgment and the Salvation that comes only by faith in Christ. I see no contradictions by Paul in seeing the we will be Judged by our works, as these will determine our rewards in heaven; not whether we are granted heaven to begin with. I don't see that this verse speaks in support of your argument.

Hello Mike:

Here is the text:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

It seems clear to me that it is eternal life itself - not "additional rewards" - that are granted according to "what they have done".

How do you read this text differently? Is it not clear that it is specifically eternal life that is the "thing that is given"?

And is it not equally clear that this eternal life is granted "according to what they have done" or, equivalently, according to "persistence in doing good"?

I am only taking Paul at his word here.

 

[Drew]

Do you believe we will be rewarded in heaven for the good that we do? In other words, will some enter heaven who don't do as much good as others?

Yes I do.

This is a tough one for your premise, but if some are Granted heaven with less rewards, how much good must they do to be Granted heaven in the first place? The one who understands Salvation by faith says "none". And that's easy to quantify. :yes

How does this challenge my premise? I am the one who is taking the text "as it reads" - we are given eternal life - that is exactly what Paul says - according to what we have done. This is, again, exactly what Paul says.

I can claim that we are given "additional rewards" as well. You, on the other hand, appear to have the task of explaining why Paul does not mean what he clearly asserts - that eternal life is granted according to "what we have done".

That is simply what the text actually says.