Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Sinthesis]

My positions are only contradictory to those who insist, without Biblical justification, that the following is not possible:

A person who places faith in Jesus in the present is given the Holy Spirit. That Spirit then transforms the person into the kind of person who manifests good works (persists in doing good) and is then, in the future, awarded eternal life based on those good works.

But, of course, this is indeed possible.

So my positions are clearly not contradictory. And, in fact, I assert that the material in italics is a terse summary of Paul's position.

The basis for eternal life is not one's good works, but Jesus.
I would modify your statement this way:

A person who places faith in Jesus in the present is given the Holy Spirit. That Spirit then transforms the person into the kind of person who manifests good works (persists in doing good) and is then, in the future, given eternal life, and awarded authority in the eternal based on those good works.

 

[glorydaz]

My positions are only contradictory to those who insist, without Biblical justification, that the following is not possible:

A person who places faith in Jesus in the present is given the Holy Spirit. That Spirit then transforms the person into the kind of person who manifests good works (persists in doing good) and is then, in the future, awarded eternal life based on those good works.

But, of course, this is indeed possible.

So my positions are clearly not contradictory. And, in fact, I assert that the material in italics is a terse summary of Paul's position.

Oops, you've just stated the faith in the present results in good works (after faith), and then eternal life is given in the future. When looking at what something is based on, it must go back to the first instance (faith), not anything that transpires in between. Faith comes first and is, therefore, the basis.

Example (albeit a poor one). A great deal of money, spent well, buys lots of good stuff. Is that good stuff because of the money or the good spending? The basis is the money. Good spending does no good if there's no money to begin with. That's kinda like a kid choosing what to buy from a catalogue....show me the money.

 

[Sinthesis]

Example (albeit a poor one). A great deal of money, spent well, buys lots of good stuff. Is that good stuff because of the money or the good spending? The basis is the money. Good spending does no good if there's no money to begin with. That's kinda like a kid choosing what to buy from a catalogue....show me the money.

There is something profound in that example.:yes

Hag 2:8 - The silver [is] mine, and the gold [is] mine, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Are you going to spend the life God gave you buying good stuff or garbage?

 

[glorydaz]

The basis for eternal life is not one's good works, but Jesus.
I would modify your statement this way:

A person who places faith in Jesus in the present is given the Holy Spirit. That Spirit then transforms the person into the kind of person who manifests good works (persists in doing good) and is then, in the future, given eternal life, and awarded authority in the eternal based on those good works.

Pretty good, but I like mine better.


Actually, though, eternal life goes back to the basis of faith in Christ (with accompanying Holy Spirit), so good works are still in the middle. Isn't this fun?

 

[glorydaz]

There is something profound in that example.:yes

Hag 2:8 - The silver [is] mine, and the gold [is] mine, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Are you going to spend the life God gave you buying good stuff or garbage?

Ooh, I like it....good stuff or garbage.

 

[glorydaz]

Good works NEVER bring about God's mercy and forgiveness. That's ONLY done through the work of Christ on the cross and subsequent Resurrection...

Amen....God's mercy and forgiveness are really the basis for eternal life.
Without those we'd have no faith to begin with, and nothing (no one) to put our faith in.

 

[Drew]

Really? Someone is denying the truthfullness of what Paul has written here?

I certainly agree with Paul, and it's clear as a bell what he's saying. It seems to me that you're the one who's upset because you don't see the word faith in his statement. Faith is the centerpiece of Paul's discussion...must he use it in every sentence for it to be there?

The problem you face is this: I suggest that you do not have an answer to this specific question:

What was Paul trying to communicate to his readers when he penned these specific words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Please answer this question. Please do not tell me what you believe the larger argument is - tell me what the purpose of this specific text is.

 

[Drew]

Context is EVERYTHING. And we MUST keep ONE general rule, and that is, Christ's finished work on the cross takes
precedence over ALL our interpretation of other Scripture. We must first decide if (other Scripture) coincides with Christ's work on the cross if it doesn't, then it's not because Scripture contradicts, it's OUR interpretation that's off...

You are not answering my question. Again:

Do you believe this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Drew]

I tend to shorten most of the user names you fixed yours!

I am surprised that you agree with Sinthesis' analysis of my position. The transcript of the thread shows that he (she?) is not correctly representing my position.

 

[Drew]

Grubal-----Salvation is based upon the "finished" work of Christ on the cross...We cannot depend on our works to please God.

I will "tolerate" this misrepresentation of my clearly expressed position on this issue at least a little while longer.

GM: I have been crystal clear about this - it is not 'our works' that save, it the works that the Holy Spirit produces in us that save.

May I ask, what denomination your affiliated with ?

I do not really belong to any denomination.

In any event, I suggest the matter is to be settled by a complete, careful exegesis of the scriptures, not on "denominational" considerations.

 

[Free]

My positions are only contradictory to those who insist, without Biblical justification, that the following is not possible:

A person who places faith in Jesus in the present is given the Holy Spirit. That Spirit then transforms the person into the kind of person who manifests good works (persists in doing good) and is then, in the future, awarded eternal life based on those good works.

But, of course, this is indeed possible.

So my positions are clearly not contradictory. And, in fact, I assert that the material in italics is a terse summary of Paul's position.

So you believe then that it is possible for a believer to resist becoming "the kind of person who manifests good works," and therefore ultimately lose their salvation?

 

[glorydaz]

The problem you face is this: I suggest that you do not have an answer to this specific question:

What was Paul trying to communicate to his readers when he penned these specific words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Please answer this question. Please do not tell me what you believe the larger argument is - tell me what the purpose of this specific text is.

Drew, you're like a dog with a bone. (which is not a bad thing)

The purpose of this specific text is show what the children of God look like or what they have done in comparison to the children of wrath. He speaks before and after this verse about exactly that.

Before....Those led to repentance....child of God

"Romans 2:4"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Before...Those who harden their heart...child of satan

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

After....child of God

"7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"

After....child of satan

"8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"

As I said earlier, you're taking this verse out of context.

 

[Drew]

So you believe then that it is possible for a believer to resist becoming "the kind of person who manifests good works," and therefore ultimately lose their salvation?

Yes, I believe this is indeed possible.

 

[Drew]

Drew, you're like a dog with a bone. (which is not a bad thing)

The purpose of this specific text is show what the children of God look like or what they have done in comparison to the children of wrath. He speaks before and after this verse about exactly that.

I politely suggest you are not honouring the actual text.

Paul says that certain people will be given eternal life - yes or no?

After you answer in the affirmative - which you clearly must - I will have another question for you.

 

[glorydaz]

I politely suggest you are not honouring the actual text.

Paul says that certain people will be given eternal life - yes or no?

After you answer in the affirmative - which you clearly must - I will have another question for you.

Yes, certain people can be given eternal life.

 

[Free]

Drew, you're like a dog with a bone. (which is not a bad thing)

The purpose of this specific text is show what the children of God look like or what they have done in comparison to the children of wrath. He speaks before and after this verse about exactly that.

Before....Those led to repentance....child of God

Before...Those who harden their heart...child of satan

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

After....child of God

After....child of satan

As I said earlier, you're taking this verse out of context.

On the contrary, Paul is talking about judgement:

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS":
Rom 2:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. (NKJV)

Clearly Paul is contrasting the hypocritical judgement of man compared to the impartial and true judgement of God.

The result of God's judgement is that all "who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality" and "who works what is good," will receive "eternal life" and "glory, honor, and peace." In the same way, "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" and "every soul of man who does evil," will receive "indignation and wrath," "tribulation and anguish."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You are not answering my question. Again:

Do you believe this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Your answer can only be answered one way, and that is, You're taking "ONE" verse out of context, and building a doctrine around that one verse... Paul is speaking about a particular person who has placed his faith (trust,belief) in Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. And has been indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and therefore, has the ability (by the indwelling Spirit) to be, persistent in doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality. You have to look at the whole picture not just one particular verse of Scripture, it does not work that way...All of the saved will be given eternal life, all of the unsaved will go to everlasting punishment separated from God...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I will "tolerate" this misrepresentation of my clearly expressed position on this issue at least a little while longer.

GM: I have been crystal clear about this - it is not 'our works' that save, it the works that the Holy Spirit produces in us that save.


I do not really belong to any denomination.

In any event, I suggest the matter is to be settled by a complete, careful exegesis of the scriptures, not on "denominational" considerations.

Drew----- I have been crystal clear about this - it is not 'our works' that save, it the works that the Holy Spirit produces in us that save.

Grubal-----The Holy Spirit does indeed produce good works within us. But where you go wrong is, those same work's do not "save" us. We are saved by Christ's atonement on the cross for ALL of mankind. Works never save.

Galatians 2:16 says, " "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes, I believe this is indeed possible.

Such a man was never saved to begin with...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I will "tolerate" this misrepresentation of my clearly expressed position on this issue at least a little while longer.

GM: I have been crystal clear about this - it is not 'our works' that save, it the works that the Holy Spirit produces in us that save.


I do not really belong to any denomination.

In any event, I suggest the matter is to be settled by a complete, careful exegesis of the scriptures, not on "denominational" considerations.

You say you don't "really" belong to any denomination. Which means you are inspired (if just a little bit) by some denomination correct ? If you don't wish to divulge this info it's OK. But, it would help the conversation along to let people know....Then again it's up to you...