Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Drew]

Do the good workers all get the same raise?

All right, let me rephrase to make the question even more structurally similar to the actual passage:

A question for all, except fds (unless he wants to answer it as well).

Consider this couplet of statements:

The employer “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in working hard seek the company's best interest, he will give a $ 1000 raise.

What is the criteria for getting a raise?

This is a very simple question. Please answer it.

 

[glorydaz]

All right, let me rephrase to make the question even more structurally similar to the actual passage:

A question for all, except fds (unless he wants to answer it as well).

Consider this couplet of statements:

The employer “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in working hard seek the company's best interest, he will give a $ 1000 raise.

What is the criteria for getting a raise?

This is a very simple question. Please answer it.

I'd say, you'd have to read the surrounding verses (fine print if you will) that says, "This offer is void if you've been caught stealing out of the till."

 

[glorydaz]

You did not answer my question. Was Jesus self-justifying Himself because of "perfect Law following"? Re-read Philipians 2:1-10 again...

NO ONE self-justifies themselves... Is this really such a difficult concept??? :eeeekkk

By the way, God's righteousness is not imputed to us. Righteousness is imputed to us.

Regards

Yes, Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping. Phil. doesn't say otherwise. Jesus is called the JUST ONE and didn't need to avail Himself of the free gift.

Nowhere do I find ANYTHING about what you claim - that one who perfectly OBEYS the Law EARNS salvation - theoretically even! The only thing a person can "earn" is eternal damnation. You cannot, even with perfect obedience, earn salvation. You are saying something that is not in the text!

Salvation is entirely a gift. Even for the perfect follower of the Law. Does the Bible state that God OWES any perfect follower of the Law anything? If so, then salvation is no longer a gift, but wages (Romans 4:4).

Jesus followed the law of God perfectly, and He did it without sin. Jesus is the only "doer of the law", and as you can see from this verse, the "doers of the law" are justified.

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jesus said, "I do ALWAYS those things that please Him," and I "keep His sayings."

29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Yet without SIN.

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Drew]

In justification, faith is the only human requirement mentioned in the NT.

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Here is the problem that I believe you face:

Assuming that you take "the law" here to denote the Law of Moses, there are clear statements later in Romans that one cannot be justified by the Law of Moses. Fine, we agree that such statements are present. But you still need to explain why Paul would write what he writes here in Romans 2. If Paul had prefaced this statement with any kind of qualifier to the effect "what I am about to tell you about justification by the Law of Moses" is something unattainable, then you would be in the clear. But there is no such qualifier and you have the challenge of explaining the very odd rhetorical style of Paul asserting what is not the case as though it is - that you can be justified by the Law of Moses - before proceeding to tell us what is the case, namely that you cannot be justified in this way.

And the challenge for me is:

To make the case that "the law" here is not the Law of Moses. And make that case I can, as I hope to do in later posts.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping. Phil. doesn't say otherwise.

WHERE on earth are you getting this from??? :o

DID you read the Scriptures that I pointed out??? It doesn't sound like you did. But let me post it for others who are more open to reading Scriptures...

Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves: Each one not considering the things that are his own, but those that are other men's. For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names.
Phil 2:3-9 (DRA)

Good gravy, how could you miss the kenosis in this statement? Why did God highly exalt him? For HUMBLING HIMSELF! Not for self-justifying himself through perfect law following. You appear to have a GRAVE misunderstanding of what was accomplished by Christ. In addition, it seems you'll ignore Scriptures to keep this mirage of a theology afloat...

Jesus is called the JUST ONE and didn't need to avail Himself of the free gift.

Is not Jesus the One Who grants the gift of salvation, since He is the One Who judges??? You present a false dilemna.

That Jesus is "the just one" does not mean no one else can be called just or righteous. Do a word search on "righteous" and see how often it applies to other people...

 

[glorydaz]

By the way, God's righteousness is not imputed to us. Righteousness is imputed to us.

Regards

And where does this righteousness come from if not from God? Jesus Christ is the Just One. His Righteousness is "accounted" to us, credited...if that's a better word for you. We don't become as righteous as Jesus was until we're glorified, since we're still in this body, but it's His righteousness that God looks at when He sees us. We're clothed in the righteous robe of Christ.

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

It's not our righteousness, that's for sure.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[francisdesales]

I'd say, you'd have to read the surrounding verses (fine print if you will) that says, "This offer is void if you've been caught stealing out of the till."

AGAIN AND AGAIN, I ask you, where does Romans 2 or ANYWHERE suggest that "this offer is void if caught - disobeying the Law"???

You are again ascribing to salvation by law following. Salvation is ONLY ONLY ONLY given as a gift. Perfect Law following, if and when done, would suggest a WAGE PAID. Even the perfect law follower MUST DEPEND UPON GRACE!!!

You continue to miss the boat...

Salvation is a gift. It can NEVER be something earned, even by a perfect law follower.

 

[francisdesales]

And where does this righteousness come from if not from God? Jesus Christ is the Just One. His Righteousness is "accounted" to us, credited...if that's a better word for you. We don't become as righteous as Jesus was until we're glorified, since we're still in this body, but it's His righteousness that God looks at when He sees us. We're clothed in the righteous robe of Christ.

It's not our righteousness, that's for sure.

No, we do not possess our OWN righteousness. However, WE don't ontologically possess God's own righteousness. We are given a gift of righteousness, based upon God's judgment. God IS righteousness. We are not, nor do we "have" that righteousness that EXISTS. Our righteousness depends upon our response and God's granting of the gift.

 

[Drew]

Yes, Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping.

I disagree. In fact, I suggest that Jesus intentionally broke the Law of Moses in order to declare its imminent abolition. When Jesus claims to make people pure, this symbolically challenges the Law of Moses which required people to go to the temple to be purified.

Yes, there are texts which declare that Jesus was obedient. But I suggest the thing Jesus was "obedient to" was not the Law of Moses, but rather the covenantal role of Israel.

 

[Drew]

I'd say, you'd have to read the surrounding verses (fine print if you will) that says, "This offer is void if you've been caught stealing out of the till."

The text in question is not a statement of an offer, which can then be duly qualified as you suggest

It is instead a statement of what will be the case: a raise will be given to those who "work hard for the company".

The best you can do, I think, is to say that the boss knows that zero persons will get a raise.

So then the problem you face is this: Why would the employer agree to reward people according to "good work" if he knows it is impossible to do so.

This is the problem in the actual text - you have placed Paul in the very odd position of saying "those who persist in doing good will get eternal life" and yet knowing that there will be zero such persons.

I suggest that competent persons would not make such a claim.

 

[Drew]

No, we do not possess our OWN righteousness. However, WE don't ontologically possess God's own righteousness. We are given a gift of righteousness, based upon God's judgment. God IS righteousness. We are not, nor do we "have" that righteousness that EXISTS. Our righteousness depends upon our response and God's granting of the gift.

Agree. Even though probably most (Protestant) Christians believe that we are imputed with God's (or Christ's) righteousness, the Bible does not actually teach such a doctrine.

 

[glorydaz]

WHERE on earth are you getting this from??? :o

DID you read the Scriptures that I pointed out??? It doesn't sound like you did. But let me post it for others who are more open to reading Scriptures...

Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves: Each one not considering the things that are his own, but those that are other men's. For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names.
Phil 2:3-9 (DRA)

Good gravy, how could you miss the kenosis in this statement? Why did God highly exalt him? For HUMBLING HIMSELF! Not for self-justifying himself through perfect law following. You appear to have a GRAVE misunderstanding of what was accomplished by Christ. In addition, it seems you'll ignore Scriptures to keep this mirage of a theology afloat...



Is not Jesus the One Who grants the gift of salvation, since He is the One Who judges??? You present a false dilemna.

That Jesus is "the just one" does not mean no one else can be called just or righteous. Do a word search on "righteous" and see how often it applies to other people...

So what do you plan on doing with the scripture that tells us "the doer of the law is justified before God?'

Was Jesus the only perfect doer of the law, or not?

Certainly, anyone can be called righteous, but no one is righteous except God and Jesus Christ.
There is no "word search" out that there will change the truth of the Holy Scripture.

Jesus is the only one who has ever kept the whole law perfectly.

I'll have to leave this one for the readers to decide for themselves. As for me, there is no doubt.

 

[glorydaz]

I disagree. In fact, I suggest that Jesus intentionally broke the Law of Moses in order to declare its imminent abolition. When Jesus claims to make people pure, this symbolically challenges the Law of Moses which required people to go to the temple to be purified.

Yes, there are texts which declare that Jesus was obedient. But I suggest the thing Jesus was "obedient to" was not the Law of Moses, but rather the covenantal role of Israel.

WHAT? Jesus intentionally "broke" the Law....any Law?

He certainly clarified some laws when He was here, but really, you have got to be kidding, right?

 

[Drew]

Good gravy, how could you miss the kenosis in this statement? Why did God highly exalt him? For HUMBLING HIMSELF! Not for self-justifying himself through perfect law following.

I agree that Jesus did not "justify Himself by perfect law-following". But I would want to generalize on what you say here. I think the broader "obedience" that Jesus manifested was, as per a recent post, His obedience to the covenantal role of Israel - Jesus takes on the destiny that Israel did not fulfill, that is, to be a blessing to the world.

And He does this by going to the cross.

 

[Drew]

WHAT? Jesus intentionally "broke" the Law....any Law?

He certainly clarified some laws when He was here, but really, you have got to be kidding, right?

I am certainly not kidding.

In several of the gospel accounts, Jesus declares all foods clean.

This is a direct, clear, and unambiguous challenge to the Law of Moses which declared that certain foods are indeed unclean.

And I can predict what will happen - people will transform that clear statement into something it is not, just like what is being done with texts like Romans 2:6-7.

 

[glorydaz]

No, we do not possess our OWN righteousness. However, WE don't ontologically possess God's own righteousness. We are given a gift of righteousness, based upon God's judgment. God IS righteousness. We are not, nor do we "have" that righteousness that EXISTS. Our righteousness depends upon our response and God's granting of the gift.

Yes, righteousness exists. It doesn't just float around out there.
Righteousness has to be attatched to someone, or it's meaning is lost.

It's the righteousness of God through faith, as the Scripture tells us. Correct?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Where does Romans 2 mention that Gentiles put their faith in Jesus Christ? Any suggestion of that anywhere? Please stop inventing things to put in Scriptures. It is getting tiring correcting all of these assumptions.

Paul is talking about Gentiles who never heard of Jesus of Nazareth, since they were not aware of the written Law. EVERY Christian, Jew or Gentile, will have heard of the Mosaic Law!!! Plainly, Paul is talking about Gentiles who hear of the law written on their hearts, not with their ears.

Regards

Fran-----Where does Romans 2 mention that Gentiles put their faith in Jesus Christ? Any suggestion of that anywhere? Please stop inventing things to put in Scriptures. It is getting tiring correcting all of these assumptions.

Grubal----What possible reason would "anyone" have to "prove" that faith in Jesus is mentioned or not, in Roman 2?? What would it prove either way?? Paul was sent to the Gentiles. There's plenty of Scripture that speaks to the truth of Gentiles having to put their faith in Christ...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

And where does this righteousness come from if not from God? Jesus Christ is the Just One. His Righteousness is "accounted" to us, credited...if that's a better word for you. We don't become as righteous as Jesus was until we're glorified, since we're still in this body, but it's His righteousness that God looks at when He sees us. We're clothed in the righteous robe of Christ.

It's not our righteousness, that's for sure.

BIG amen brother!!!

 

[glorydaz]

You are really desperate to force the Scriptures through the "seive" of your theology, aren't you. Please. Just read what is there...


Paul is not making a statement about inability to do the Law. HE HIMSELF stated that he, at one time, followed the Law perfectly. Then realized it did not earn him anything. Let's look at Paul's thought on this:

For we are the circumcision, who in spirit serve God; and glory in Christ Jesus, not having confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other thinketh he may have confidence in the flesh, I more, Being circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to the law, a Pharisee: According to zeal, persecuting the church of God; according to the justice that is in the law, conversing without blame. But the things that were gain to me, the same I have counted loss for Christ.

Several things to point out...

1. Paul perfectly followed the law.

Really, Joe. I'm surprised you didn't point out the part in red. I'm sure you'd have realized that Paul was talking about himself when he was "unconverted." Obviously, he was not a "doer of the law" when he persecuted the church of God....unless, of course, you believe that God commanded him to do so. This is why Jesus had to clarify the law for the Jews. They had adulterated it. "Thou shalt murder or bear false witness." Surely persecuting the church of God involved some such action.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I disagree. In fact, I suggest that Jesus intentionally broke the Law of Moses in order to declare its imminent abolition. When Jesus claims to make people pure, this symbolically challenges the Law of Moses which required people to go to the temple to be purified.

Yes, there are texts which declare that Jesus was obedient. But I suggest the thing Jesus was "obedient to" was not the Law of Moses, but rather the covenantal role of Israel.

Your a "braver" man than I, to accuse Christ of "disobeying" the law on purpose...