Salvation by faith alone/only?

[glorydaz]

And some things are best left unsaid as the same be said about your position. But that does nothing to advance good conversation or a good understanding of Scripture.

Referring to others' positions as being legalistic or one's own position as "even a child or the simplest of men can understand it," is not only condescending, they are caricatures which makes them much easier to dismiss. Doing proper theology and gaining a deeper understanding of Scripture is hardly ever as easy as most make it out to be.

You're correct. I shouldn't have said I didn't have the guts, but as far as the Gospel being simple able to be understood by children or the simplest of men....it's a common and truthful saying, not a negative slur.

When someone tells me the Gospel is too complicated, that's exactly what I say to them, and none have been offended up until now. Myself, I've said many times, "Explain that again, I'm a simple person." Believers should work on not being so easily offended, life would go a lot smoother.

These are just of few of the verses I've shared over the years, including we're to be "SIMPLE concerning evil."

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me.

The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

 

[glorydaz]

You are again falling into the trap of "false dichotomy" First of all, God grants eternal life to whomever HE desires. According to Sacred Scriptures, that includes BOTH the person of faith and good deeds. One without the other is without the promise God has granted to those who obey Him in loving faith. There is no need to separate faith from works, and frankly, the Bible very clearly points out the necessity of both.

No one here is stating that one's keeping of the Mosaic Law is salvific, so this is a non-sequitar. Salvation is a gift, so keeping the Law cannot earn salvation. Not because no one can keep the Law, but because salvation is simply a gift! That's it. Simple as that. No one can obligate God. Even those who keep the Law. And those who truly keep the spirit of the Law do not obligate God.



A false analogy. We have a forgiving God, so God can "refloat the boat"... NOWHERE does the Bible state that one must be perfect in fulfilling the Law to rely upon God to grant His mercy. This is an invention that does great injustice to the text to support a false theology. If one relies on God's mercy, why on earth would one depend on perfectly fulfilling the Law??? As such, you miss the point on what "I am a merciful God" means...



Never said it did. NO ONE HERE said it does...

It rests upon God's mercy. I made that clear in my last post that you appear to think is meaningless...



Nor is one expected to. :p

Please cite me one Scripture citation that God requires that man perfectly fulfill the Law! Why the false statements here? They lead to false conclusions. God does not require that man perfectly fulfill the Law if He has chosen to save that man.



Man needs a savior, but his point has nothing to do with perfection... Romans 2 has pagans entering eternal life. WHO thinks that pagans are perfectly fulfilling the Law????????? :biglol

Where does Paul mention perfection as a requirement? But somehow, that's what you get from Romans 2?



It's pretty clear, but you aren't getting it. I am sorry, but you are captive to a false theology that is not found in the verses in question. Nor can you provide any to back it up. It is simply the "game plan" that you accept without question...

Paul is very clearly stating that Gentiles are entering eternal life based upon what they do - being righteous in God's eyes for their obedience, while some Jews are not. Why? NOT because the Gentiles achieve perfection! God has granted mercy to those who obey Him and the Law written on their hearts. NOTE CAREFULLY. WHO is writing that law? God. YES, we need a savior, since NO ONE can obey the Law WITHOUT God. God even saves pagans, if it is His will. However, WITH God's grace, pagans have entered the Kingdom while Jews with the written code are not.

THAT is perfectly clear...

Regards

Good grief, Joe. False dichotomy, false analogy, false theology....let it go. I have never, nor has anyone else said we are to keep the law 100%. No one can, that's the point. What was said, over and over, is that to be justified by law....any law...it WOULD HAVE TO BE FOLLOWED 100 %, without failing in even one point. How you turned that around to what you have above is beyond me. I'm not into playing games with you, Joe. I thought we were past that and could discuss the scripture like two adults. Perhaps not......

 

[glorydaz]

Galatians 1
"6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

This book has always amazed me. Paul addresses the church in Galatia with such exhausted frustration, because he saw how they were grinding God's offer of Salvation through faith in His Son. They wanted so much to add to Christ's sacrifice on the cross!

This reminds me of a prisoner who's been set free, yet they choose to stay in their own self-made prison. They lock the door from freedom and spend all day/all night by themselves in torcher chamber trying mightily to pay that debt that had already been paid, because they cannot bring themselves to put all their own efforts aside and accept what He has done. Would that we could all release ourselves from this pursuit of our own merit, and simply thank God that we have nothing but the faith He has Placed in our hearts. I believe Paul would be astonished today that the whole of God's Word would be sidetracked so profoundly by a misunderstanding of a line or two.

Praise the Lord. That was like a fresh drink of water in a parched land.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal, Galatians does not answer my question. No one is saying that righteousness comes from the law. Because someone follows the Law does not mean that they THINK they are being saved by that. One can obey the Law with humble heart, trusting that God is righteous and will reward him, but not taking it for granted or presuming it (like some of the "I believe, so God owes me" types).

Have you not read the Psalms? Read Psalm 119. You will find out how the truly righteous live and fulfill the Law. Such a one does not trust in his own ability.

Now, again, please point out where the Scriptures say that one must follow the Law 100% of the time to be saved...

Regards

Fran----Galations 3:10-12 reads:

Galatians 3:10-12
King James Version
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Fran-----Now, again, please point out where the Scriptures say that one must follow the Law 100% of the time to be saved...
Grubal-----As the above Scripture states, (11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.)
(12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.)

Verse 12 tells us that, the law will not save us, but the man that believes it will, must obey them (live in them)

Verse 11 states, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God," So we know that a man cannot be saved by obeying the law...In conclusion the answer to your question is, man "cannot "obey" the law and be saved..."The just shall live by faith"

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You are again falling into the trap of "false dichotomy" First of all, God grants eternal life to whomever HE desires. According to Sacred Scriptures, that includes BOTH the person of faith and good deeds. One without the other is without the promise God has granted to those who obey Him in loving faith. There is no need to separate faith from works, and frankly, the Bible very clearly points out the necessity of both.

No one here is stating that one's keeping of the Mosaic Law is salvific, so this is a non-sequitar. Salvation is a gift, so keeping the Law cannot earn salvation. Not because no one can keep the Law, but because salvation is simply a gift! That's it. Simple as that. No one can obligate God. Even those who keep the Law. And those who truly keep the spirit of the Law do not obligate God.



A false analogy. We have a forgiving God, so God can "refloat the boat"... NOWHERE does the Bible state that one must be perfect in fulfilling the Law to rely upon God to grant His mercy. This is an invention that does great injustice to the text to support a false theology. If one relies on God's mercy, why on earth would one depend on perfectly fulfilling the Law??? As such, you miss the point on what "I am a merciful God" means...



Never said it did. NO ONE HERE said it does...

It rests upon God's mercy. I made that clear in my last post that you appear to think is meaningless...



Nor is one expected to. :p

Please cite me one Scripture citation that God requires that man perfectly fulfill the Law! Why the false statements here? They lead to false conclusions. God does not require that man perfectly fulfill the Law if He has chosen to save that man.



Man needs a savior, but his point has nothing to do with perfection... Romans 2 has pagans entering eternal life. WHO thinks that pagans are perfectly fulfilling the Law????????? :biglol

Where does Paul mention perfection as a requirement? But somehow, that's what you get from Romans 2?



It's pretty clear, but you aren't getting it. I am sorry, but you are captive to a false theology that is not found in the verses in question. Nor can you provide any to back it up. It is simply the "game plan" that you accept without question...

Paul is very clearly stating that Gentiles are entering eternal life based upon what they do - being righteous in God's eyes for their obedience, while some Jews are not. Why? NOT because the Gentiles achieve perfection! God has granted mercy to those who obey Him and the Law written on their hearts. NOTE CAREFULLY. WHO is writing that law? God. YES, we need a savior, since NO ONE can obey the Law WITHOUT God. God even saves pagans, if it is His will. However, WITH God's grace, pagans have entered the Kingdom while Jews with the written code are not.

THAT is perfectly clear...

Regards

Fran says----- First of all, God grants eternal life to whomever HE desires.

Grubal-----God sent His Son to die for the sins of ALL mankind. God desires that ALL should come to repentance and receive His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. He hasn't just "chosen" a few and damned the others.

Fran----- that includes BOTH the person of faith and good deeds. One without the other is without the promise God has granted to those who obey Him in loving faith. There is no need to separate faith from works, and frankly, the Bible very clearly points out the necessity of both.

Grubal----Good deeds plays no part when we first come to Christ after hearing the word preached...We come as lost sinners...Good deeds (works/fruits) only manifest after the, indwelling/sealing of the Spirit...After we are "born-again Spiritually." The good deeds/works/fruits come from the influence of the Holy Spirit within us...

Fran----- Not because no one can keep the Law, but because salvation is simply a gift! That's it. Simple as that. No one can obligate God. Even those who keep the Law. And those who truly keep the spirit of the Law do not obligate God.

Grubal-----Galations 3:11 says--- But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” According to God's word, no one is justified by the law. Nor can they, because they will be unable to keep the "whole law" The "just" shall live by "faith."

Fran-----Paul is very clearly stating that Gentiles are entering eternal life based upon what they do - being righteous in God's eyes for their obedience,

Grubal----Gentiles are entering "eternal" life, because, they put their faith in a risen Savior. And were subsequently, born again and placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. incidentally, that's how the Jews receive eternal life as well...In this age of Grace...

I really don't believe, hardly anyone, really believes that, obeying the law gets them saved. Yet, that's what your arguing about. (with all due respect) Surely "glorydaz" isn't proclaiming that, at all...

 

[Drew]

Drew says----- At the end, the "test" for getting eternal life is the presence of these works.

Grubal-----There is no such (litmus) test for eternal life. It's simply, is your name written in the "Book of Life" and have you been covered by the blood of Christ at the cross through your faith ?

And what does Paul say?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is really an emperor has no clothes scenario - you guys simply do not honour the plain sense of the text:

I will now repeat the key phrase to drive home the point:

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

Does Paul say "according to something other than what they have done"?

You, apparently, believe precisely this.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

And what does Paul say?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is really an emperor has no clothes scenario - you guys simply do not honour the plain sense of the text:

I will now repeat the key phrase to drive home the point:

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

Does Paul say "according to something other than what they have done"?

You, apparently, believe precisely this.

Read Revelation 20: 11&15 and find out what happens!!! You apparently are, fascinated with this one verse, and are basing it on your eternal destination. So I won't discuss alternative interpretation with you on this subject any more. I wish you the best though, and hold no hard feelings...You believe you've found the truth and I won't try and change your mind about this issue. I except your truth as yours and respect you for it...

 

[Drew]

Galatians 1
"6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

This book has always amazed me. Paul addresses the church in Galatia with such exhausted frustration, because he saw how they were grinding God's offer of Salvation through faith in His Son. They wanted so much to add to Christ's sacrifice on the cross!

This reminds me of a prisoner who's been set free, yet they choose to stay in their own self-made prison. They lock the door from freedom and spend all day/all night by themselves in torcher chamber trying mightily to pay that debt that had already been paid, because they cannot bring themselves to put all their own efforts aside and accept what He has done. Would that we could all release ourselves from this pursuit of our own merit, and simply thank God that we have nothing but the faith He has Placed in our hearts. I believe Paul would be astonished today that the whole of God's Word would be sidetracked so profoundly by a misunderstanding of a line or two.

You are obviously begging the question. There is nothing in this text that challenges the position that God will grant eternal life "according to what they have done" - just as Paul says in Romans 2!!!.

Again:

1. The person who, in the present, and by faith alone, accepts Jesus as Lord, thereby embracing Jesus' victory on the cross, is given the Holy Spirit;

2. That Holy Spirit then generates all sorts of good works;

3. At the end, the "test" for getting eternal life is the presence of these works.

Mike: Please answer this simple question: What do these sentences mean?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

And more specifically, what does "according to" mean in the English language.

 

[Drew]

Read Revelation 20: 11&15 and find out what happens!!! You apparently are, fascinated with this one verse, and are basing it on your eternal destination.

Do you believe "this particular verse" (Romans 2:6-7):

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Yes or no - do you believe it?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Do you believe "this particular verse" (Romans 2:6-7):

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Yes or no - do you believe it?

Like I mentioned earlier, I respect your thoughts on this subject but, will not discuss it further with you...Perhaps we can discuss another subject, another time. Just not this one OK...

 

[francisdesales]

Good grief, Joe. False dichotomy, false analogy, false theology....let it go. I have never, nor has anyone else said we are to keep the law 100%. No one can, that's the point.

That point is inconsequential and never made!!!! WHO CARES about whether someone can keep the Law 100% of the time or not! Paul isn't concerned with that. You PRESUME that IF someone could keep the law 100% of the time, they could be justified by the Law. Does Paul ever make that argument??? Does Paul ever suggest that "if someone could keep the law 100%, they would be self-justified - but no one can"?????

YOU are making that statement and pretending it comes from Sacred Writ.

That is why I mention false dichotomy. Bringing it up in regards to Romans 2 is inconsequential, because Paul is not making a hypothetical statement about perfect law-following. WHO believes that Gentiles were following the Law perfectly? YET, they were entering eternal life, according to Paul. They WERE obeying the Law, according to Paul. Nowhere does he state anything about perfection, so I wonder why you even mention this. Unless you are reading into Scriptures your theology.

I'm not into playing games with you, Joe. I thought we were past that and could discuss the scripture like two adults. Perhaps not......

I see. Because I disagree with your understanding of Romans 2, I am obviously not an adult...

yes, I can see nothing has changed...

 

[francisdesales]

Fran----Galations 3:10-12 reads:

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Fran-----Now, again, please point out where the Scriptures say that one must follow the Law 100% of the time to be saved...
Grubal-----As the above Scripture states, (11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.)

I still see nothing about following the Law 100% will earn salvation.

The Law has no power to grant anything. How could perfect law following grant salvation, since salvation is something given only by God in His mercy??? The law can grant NOTHING. NO ONE can obligate God. Even 100% law following. That very fact defuses your entire argument. Perfect law following does not obligate God, so the point is inconsequential (and not Paul's point - which I will succinctly state soon)

In conclusion the answer to your question is, man "cannot "obey" the law and be saved..."The just shall live by faith"

But not for the reasons you detail. God justifies. We don't justify ourselves. This says NOTHING about whether one COULD obey the Law 100%. Recall that Paul says he obeyed it "perfectly"...

Even if we DID obey the law 100%, that would not justify ourselves. This states nothing about whether someone CAN fulfill the law.

The point is WHO is justifying? Is it one's own efforts or is it God?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Fran says----- First of all, God grants eternal life to whomever HE desires.

Grubal-----God sent His Son to die for the sins of ALL mankind. God desires that ALL should come to repentance and receive His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. He hasn't just "chosen" a few and damned the others.

Eternal life is granted conditionally by God. It is AVAILABLE to all, but it is not "won" by all. God desires all to be saved, but He also desires that man maintain their free will, using our actions as a basis to provide mercy. And some choose to remain in sin.

Fran----- that includes BOTH the person of faith and good deeds. One without the other is without the promise God has granted to those who obey Him in loving faith. There is no need to separate faith from works, and frankly, the Bible very clearly points out the necessity of both.

Grubal----Good deeds plays no part when we first come to Christ after hearing the word preached...We come as lost sinners...Good deeds (works/fruits) only manifest after the, indwelling/sealing of the Spirit...After we are "born-again Spiritually." The good deeds/works/fruits come from the influence of the Holy Spirit within us...

First, the act of coming to God is a good deed... No one just "sits there and does nothing" - the very act of becoming baptized and proclaiming Jesus as Lord is a "work", a "deed".

But I am speaking about entering eternal life, not about redemption of sin. The two are not necessarily synonymous. A person can be redeemed from sin many years ago and fall away, making a shipwreck of their faith. Scriptures very clearly note that God judges our good deeds, does it not? Good deeds moved by God's Spirit and our faith?

Fran-----Paul is very clearly stating that Gentiles are entering eternal life based upon what they do - being righteous in God's eyes for their obedience,

Grubal----Gentiles are entering "eternal" life, because, they put their faith in a risen Savior.

How do the Gentiles "put their faith in a risen Savior" that they know nothing about??? That is not what Paul says. No mention of "faith in Jesus" is mentioned in Romans 2. Clearly, Paul is speaking of Gentiles who have not "officially" converted to Christianity, because Romans 2 states that they don't have the written Law, only the law in their hearts. Gentile Christians DID know of the written Law!!! So Paul cannot be talking about Gentile converts.

I really don't believe, hardly anyone, really believes that, obeying the law gets them saved. Yet, that's what your arguing about. (with all due respect) Surely "glorydaz" isn't proclaiming that, at all...

He is confused on the point of Paul in Romans 2, interjecting his theology onto the text. I am afraid you are guity of the same thing.

I am arguing the opposite of what you accuse me of! Over and over, I have stated that even perfect law following does not win salvation. I have asked you over and over for proof of the necessity for perfect law following to win salvation. Are you having a difficult time reading that in my posts? I would suggest you read them more carefully. The entire argument about "100% law following" made by you and glorydaz misses the point Paul is making! It is inconsequential, an invention of what falls under "man's justice".

NO ONE CAN justify themselves. That is my point That is Paul's point.

Now, if someone obeyed the Law, (happens over and over again in Scriptures) salvation could be mercifully granted BY GOD. Not by successfully following the Law, but by God's desire to grant mercy. God grants the gift of eternal life to those who obey Him - not because He owes them, but because God is righteous and merciful...

How difficult is this to understand???

Either God justifies or we (try) justify ourselves...


Regards

 

[Drew]

A question for all, except fds (unless he wants to answer it as well).

Consider this couplet of statements:

The employer “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in working hard seek the company's best interest, he will give a raise.

What is the criteria for getting a raise?

This is a very simple question. Please answer it.

 

[glorydaz]

That point is inconsequential and never made!!!! WHO CARES about whether someone can keep the Law 100% of the time or not! Paul isn't concerned with that. You PRESUME that IF someone could keep the law 100% of the time, they could be justified by the Law. Does Paul ever make that argument??? Does Paul ever suggest that "if someone could keep the law 100%, they would be self-justified - but no one can"?????

YOU are making that statement and pretending it comes from Sacred Writ.

I'm not "pretending" anything. Paul said, those who are of the "works" of the law are under a curse, because they would have to be a "doer" of ALL THINGS which are written in the law. He's says it's "evident" no man can. Can you read these verses some other way?

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in [/b]all things[/b] which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

I'm not "pretending" anything. Paul said, those who are of the "works" of the law are under a curse,

Those are people Christ did not die for. All for whom He died, He redeemed them by His blood from the curse of the Law , because He was made a curse for them, or in their behalf Gal 3:13

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[Drew]

Reba nailed it.

The topic of Romans 2 is:
Who really are the people of God?

That may be so, but Paul says what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

It is incorrect to argue thus:

1. The general theme of a chapter, or a block of text is "X";

2. Therefore, everything that is expressed in that block of text must be some sort of direct articulation of X.

I agree - in Romans 2, Paul is indeed talking about who the true people of God are. But, he says this within that treatment:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Sinthesis, what is the basis for being declared righteous, according to this specific statement, notwithstanding that we appear to agree on the general theme of the chapter as a whole?

We are perhaps not that far apart - I have repeatedly said that "good works that save" can only arise in the life of the person who has placed faith in Jesus.

But Paul says what he says - this statement, and the ones in 2:6-7 clearly declare that the criteria for awarding eternal life is "good works".

according to what they have done

according to what they have done

according to what they have done


"According to" means what it means! If Paul wanted to say that the criteria for eternal life was "good works", he could not have stated this more clearly than through this phrase:

according to what they have done

I will address the rest of your post, in particular, the Corinthians text, later.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That point is inconsequential and never made!!!! WHO CARES about whether someone can keep the Law 100% of the time or not! Paul isn't concerned with that. You PRESUME that IF someone could keep the law 100% of the time, they could be justified by the Law. Does Paul ever make that argument??? Does Paul ever suggest that "if someone could keep the law 100%, they would be self-justified - but no one can"?????

YOU are making that statement and pretending it comes from Sacred Writ.

That is why I mention false dichotomy. Bringing it up in regards to Romans 2 is inconsequential, because Paul is not making a hypothetical statement about perfect law-following. WHO believes that Gentiles were following the Law perfectly? YET, they were entering eternal life, according to Paul. They WERE obeying the Law, according to Paul. Nowhere does he state anything about perfection, so I wonder why you even mention this. Unless you are reading into Scriptures your theology.



I see. Because I disagree with your understanding of Romans 2, I am obviously not an adult...

yes, I can see nothing has changed...

Fran----- You PRESUME that IF someone could keep the law 100% of the time, they could be justified by the Law. Does Paul ever make that argument??? Does Paul ever suggest that "if someone could keep the law 100%, they would be self-justified

Grubal-----Someone was able to keep the "whole" law, and that was Christ our Saviour...His righteousness is imputed to us when we become "a child of God."

 

[mondar]

glory



Those are people Christ did not die for. All for whom He died, He redeemed them by His blood from the curse of the Law , because He was made a curse for them, or in their behalf Gal 3:13

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The reason I post is because of the quote of Galatians 3:13. I find that particular text to be a very exciting and interesting text. It is simply fascenating what Paul is doing. Paul quotes a passage (off the top of my head it is from Deuteronomy), and the quote has no context in the OT. It brings up a question, why would Moses even bother to place a statement like this in Deuteronomy. The Jewish law never prescribed capitol punishment by crucifixion. The Jewish OT law method of capitol punishment was stoning. Why then does Deuteronomy suddenly speak of people being hung on a tree as under a curse? The reason is obvious to Paul. Paul writes that the reason for this a-contextual statement in Deuteronomy is that this curse alludes to Jesus Christs substitutionary death.

glorydaz is right when he says that the people who do not do the whole law are under a curse. However, this did not start with the law of Moses, it started with Adam. God cursed man in original sin. We have been a cursed race since Eden. In justification, faith is the only human requirement mentioned in the NT. So then without faith, one is under the curses mentioned by glorydaz. The people under the blood of Christ are under the blessings mentioned by savedbygrace57 in that God redeems his people from this curse by his substutitionary death.

However, there are two separate issues. One is the extent and power of the atonement, the other is the human requirements. While I would agree that the atonement actually does save, this thread is about the issue of the human requirements of faith, or are their requirements of something more then faith?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That point is inconsequential and never made!!!! WHO CARES about whether someone can keep the Law 100% of the time or not! Paul isn't concerned with that. You PRESUME that IF someone could keep the law 100% of the time, they could be justified by the Law. Does Paul ever make that argument??? Does Paul ever suggest that "if someone could keep the law 100%, they would be self-justified - but no one can"?????

YOU are making that statement and pretending it comes from Sacred Writ.

That is why I mention false dichotomy. Bringing it up in regards to Romans 2 is inconsequential, because Paul is not making a hypothetical statement about perfect law-following. WHO believes that Gentiles were following the Law perfectly? YET, they were entering eternal life, according to Paul. They WERE obeying the Law, according to Paul. Nowhere does he state anything about perfection, so I wonder why you even mention this. Unless you are reading into Scriptures your theology.



I see. Because I disagree with your understanding of Romans 2, I am obviously not an adult...

yes, I can see nothing has changed...

Fran-----WHO believes that Gentiles were following the Law perfectly? YET, they were entering eternal life, according to Paul. They WERE obeying the Law, according to Paul. Nowhere does he state anything about perfection, so I wonder why you even mention this. Unless you are reading into Scriptures your theology.

Grubal-----The Gentiles were entering eternal life because they were putting their faith in Christ, and becoming "born-again Spiritually." Not because they were following the law. For if they fell short in one area of the law, they were guilty of breaking the whole law...Therefore, it was a fruitless attempt and bound to fail...