Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

You must be JOKING!!! You state that no one can satisfy the Law except Jesus. By this twisted logic, God apparently didn't grant mercy until the New Testament era!!!! :eeeekkk

You apparently are clueless on what "mercy" means and how it is dispensed by God. Mercy doesn't await for the "law to be satisfied". Have you not read ANY parables of Jesus? Have you read, for example, the parable of the Prodigal Son? The wicked servant? WHEN did the master forgive that great debt? Only after that servant obeyed the Law???

God grants mercy without SOMEONE having to "earn it". Have you read the Old Testament??? Where do we have the Father awaiting man to "behave" before mercy is dispensed?

Didn't Jesus give His life while we were STILL IN SIN???

When is this going to sink in?

Even perfect works does not earn salvation.


Regards

When you say,"Even perfect works does not earn salvation." You are 100% correct. In essence there is "nothing we can do to earn salvation." Salvation was and is, God's free gift to the world because of His love. He "offers it to all of mankind" through the sacrificial death of His Son on the cross. All He asks of us, is that we believe. (put our faith, trust) other than that, Christ did all the work...

 

[francisdesales]

As I said, Joe, you were focused on Romans 2:6-7

I am not "focused on Romans 2:6-7". Perhaps you are thinking of Drew.

However, I have asked you for Scriputral data from ANYWHERE that backs up your ideas on "100% law following = salvation earned" or "man is self-justified by perfect law following". OR that "man cannot follow the Law", as I cite Paul's Phillipian citation. I don't have to "focus on Romans 2" to prove that.

ONLY. Grubal was stating a principle, taking Paul's words before and after those two verses.

Stop being a "cheerleader. It's unbecoming. Nowhere in the entire Romans 2 is "Jesus" or "faith" mentioned! You are blindly backing up someone and then making yourself look silly with such statements.

Gentile pagans are not entering eternal life because of 'faith in Jesus', as Grubal claimed, since they don't know Jesus through the Gospel. How can such a Gentile have 'faith' in someone they never heard of? The passage speaks 'loud and clear' on how such are saved - by God granting mercy to those who obey the Law written on the heart through their deeds. Written their by God's Word and Spirit. But faith in JESUS?

The Spirit can blow where He wills, and THROUGH JESUS, that pagan CAN obey the Law. This is part of the mystery of God's will of election. But one must have the Gospel preached to have faith IN Jesus. You hardly can have faith in someone you don't know of. Faith in God would be more applicable here.

Are you suggesting that those Gentiles listening to their conscience did not come by faith in Christ? That would leave out a lot of OT saints including Abraham.

I think you got that backwards. It HAD to be "their conscience" by which they came to faith, since they had not heard the Gospel. Abraham had faith in God, working through the Word of God and His Spirit. Jesus had not yet come in the flesh, and so the faith of Abraham rested upon the idea that God would fulfill His promise to send a Savior and to build a "nation" upon him. The "faith" was in God's righteousness to fulfill that promise, not in Jesus' work on the cross.

Any Gentile (such as Abraham) that comes to God through Christ does not "know" Christ or the Gospel in the manner that we do when we hear the Word. But they certainly are called and led by the same Spirit (that they cannot identify as those who are knowledgeable about God's revelation)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

When you say,"Even perfect works does not earn salvation." You are 100% correct.

Whew, what a difference a day makes... That includes "hypothetical 100% law following"...

In essence there is "nothing we can do to earn salvation." Salvation was and is, God's free gift to the world because of His love. He "offers it to all of mankind" through the sacrificial death of His Son on the cross. All He asks of us, is that we believe. (put our faith, trust) other than that, Christ did all the work...

Your last two sentences seem to disagree. "Christ did all the work" and "we believe".

Believing is a work, according to Jesus...

And of course, everyone understands that faith without works is DEAD... ;)

If so, we have some other "work" to do, ourselves... Not to earn anything, but as proof of our faith. God's mercy is granted to those who have faith working in love. Faith alone is dead.

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I am not "focused on Romans 2:6-7". Perhaps you are thinking of Drew.

However, I have asked you for Scriputral data from ANYWHERE that backs up your ideas on "100% law following = salvation earned" or "man is self-justified by perfect law following". OR that "man cannot follow the Law", as I cite Paul's Phillipian citation. I don't have to "focus on Romans 2" to prove that.



Stop being a "cheerleader. It's unbecoming. Nowhere in the entire Romans 2 is "Jesus" or "faith" mentioned! You are blindly backing up someone and then making yourself look silly with such statements.

Gentile pagans are not entering eternal life because of 'faith in Jesus', as Grubal claimed, since they don't know Jesus through the Gospel. How can such a Gentile have 'faith' in someone they never heard of? The passage speaks 'loud and clear' on how such are saved - by God granting mercy to those who obey the Law written on the heart through their deeds. Written their by God's Word and Spirit. But faith in JESUS?

The Spirit can blow where He wills, and THROUGH JESUS, that pagan CAN obey the Law. This is part of the mystery of God's will of election. But one must have the Gospel preached to have faith IN Jesus. You hardly can have faith in someone you don't know of. Faith in God would be more applicable here.



I think you got that backwards. It HAD to be "their conscience" by which they came to faith, since they had not heard the Gospel. Abraham had faith in God, working through the Word of God and His Spirit. Jesus had not yet come in the flesh, and so the faith of Abraham rested upon the idea that God would fulfill His promise to send a Savior and to build a "nation" upon him. The "faith" was in God's righteousness to fulfill that promise, not in Jesus' work on the cross.

Any Gentile (such as Abraham) that comes to God through Christ does not "know" Christ or the Gospel in the manner that we do when we hear the Word. But they certainly are called and led by the same Spirit (that they cannot identify as those who are knowledgeable about God's revelation)

Regards

Better be careful Fran, if one of the moderators were to read what you said here (personal attacks) it would "behoove" them to crack down on you. Because your getting awfully nasty my friend!!!!

 

[reba]

Better be careful Fran, if one of the moderators were to read what you said here (personal attacks) it would "behoove" them to crack down on you. Because your getting awfully nasty my friend!!!!

I read this with a smile?

 

[glorydaz]

Gentile pagans are not entering eternal life because of 'faith in Jesus', as Grubal claimed, since they don't know Jesus through the Gospel. How can such a Gentile have 'faith' in someone they never heard of? The passage speaks 'loud and clear' on how such are saved - by God granting mercy to those who obey the Law written on the heart through their deeds. Written their by God's Word and Spirit. But faith in JESUS?

The Spirit can blow where He wills, and THROUGH JESUS, that pagan CAN obey the Law. This is part of the mystery of God's will of election. But one must have the Gospel preached to have faith IN Jesus. You hardly can have faith in someone you don't know of. Faith in God would be more applicable here.

I think you got that backwards. It HAD to be "their conscience" by which they came to faith, since they had not heard the Gospel. Abraham had faith in God, working through the Word of God and His Spirit. Jesus had not yet come in the flesh, and so the faith of Abraham rested upon the idea that God would fulfill His promise to send a Savior and to build a "nation" upon him. The "faith" was in God's righteousness to fulfill that promise, not in Jesus' work on the cross.

Any Gentile (such as Abraham) that comes to God through Christ does not "know" Christ or the Gospel in the manner that we do when we hear the Word. But they certainly are called and led by the same Spirit (that they cannot identify as those who are knowledgeable about God's revelation)Regards

Drat, I'll have to disagree with you once again, Joe.

Jesus Christ created everything, and has been around from the beginning - The great I AM.
There is, and has always been, only one way to salvation... and that is by grace through faith in Christ (the coming Messiah to those before the cross).

Before Abraham was a Jew, he was a gentile, and he came by faith. The Word tells us of many gentiles in the OT who were saved the same way. Most were way before the nation of Israel came into being. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, don't forget.

Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

All the prophets have witnessed of Him.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Through God's grace the revelation of Jesus Christ has appeared to all men. They, too were looking for the glorious apppearing of Jesus Christ.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

There is nothing new under the sun, Joe. No, they didn't have the indwelling spirit the way we do, but it was still salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

However, I have asked you for Scriputral data from ANYWHERE that backs up your ideas on "100% law following = salvation earned" or "man is self-justified by perfect law following". OR that "man cannot follow the Law", as I cite Paul's Phillipian citation.

I've given scripture and challenged yours, but you don't hear. There's not much point in trying to tell you the same thing you didn't accept before.

I think you got that backwards. It HAD to be "their conscience" by which they came to faith, since they had not heard the Gospel. Abraham had faith in God, working through the Word of God and His Spirit. Jesus had not yet come in the flesh, and so the faith of Abraham rested upon the idea that God would fulfill His promise to send a Savior and to build a "nation" upon him. The "faith" was in God's righteousness to fulfill that promise, not in Jesus' work on the cross.

This verse isn't just talking about the Gospel that came after Christ, but the Gospel that came before. Notice Isaiah...he was preaching the same gospel....the same faith. Before Peter and Paul there were prophets preaching Jesus Christ, the coming Saviour. You can go to the OT and read all about Jesus.

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The gospel was preached to Abraham...

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The Gospel has been preached to all of creation. It's always grace through faith in Christ.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[francisdesales]

Better be careful Fran, if one of the moderators were to read what you said here (personal attacks) it would "behoove" them to crack down on you. Because your getting awfully nasty my friend!!!!

What personal attacks?

Is this your new strategy of coming to terms with your inability to effectively argue your point? Pretend you are offended and claim you never wrote something, when you did? Calling you out on it and I am to blame? And then pointing out that Romans 2 does not mention Jesus or faith, yet, somehow, Glorydaz "sees" you are correct?

:p

Let me know when you are ready to discuss issues, OK?

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus Christ created everything, and has been around from the beginning - The great I AM.

Actually, the proper terminology is that God created THROUGH His Word. When speaking of such things, we should be more careful.

Jesus was not known as Jesus until the Incarnation. Thus, how He was known by Abraham was quite different than how Peter or Paul knew Him. That is rather self-evident, unless you are suggesting that the Word of God became incarnate before becoming Jesus?

There is, and has always been, only one way to salvation... and that is by grace through faith in Christ (the coming Messiah to those before the cross).

I disagree, it is faith in God, not the Messiah. The Jews did not consider that the Messiah would be God Himself, in the flesh. That was why Christianity was so different from Judaism. What one would call a "cognitive dissonance".

Before Abraham was a Jew, he was a gentile and he came by faith.

Faith in God and the promise. Not faith in Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.

The Word tells us of many gentiles in the OT who were saved the same way.

Yes, by faith in God. Just as Romans 2 discusses. Faith in God expressed by good deeds (although faith is not mentioned in Romans 2, we can presume that their works were endowed with faith, since works alone are not salvific, clearly pointed out in the Minor Prophets throughout)

Most were way before the nation of Israel came into being. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, don't forget.

Eh? Scriptures please. The PLAN was laid out before the foundation of the world, not the act! That is self-evident, as well...

Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad.

The day of Jesus means the day of the coming of the Messiah. He had faith that God's promises would be fulfilled. I don't see where Jesus is implying that Abraham saw Jesus dying on the cross...

All the prophets have witnessed of Him.

Witnessed to the Messiah... Even the entire OT Scriptures can be read with Christ as its center.

Through God's grace the revelation of Jesus Christ has appeared to all men. They, too were looking for the glorious apppearing of Jesus Christ.

Hyperbole... You think that one of the Apostles sailed to Canada in the first century??????? 'All men" here is an indication that the Gospel has spread - but not taken literally!

No, they didn't have the indwelling spirit the way we do, but it was still salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Sorry, you are misunderstanding the Scriptures. People don't have faith IN CHRIST until they have heard of Him... THINK about this. You think someone in ancient Corinth was aware of Jesus dying on the cross BEFORE ANY Christian came to preach the Gospel? Or better, how about an Indian in the Southwest America? Was such a potential person "preached about faith in Christ"???

I am really sorry to burst your bubble, but Paul is not stating that in Romans 2.

What they have faith in, prior to preaching, is faith in God. A God that they CAN know, to some degree, as PAUL tells us in Romans 1! Some such do seek Him out, by the work of God's Word and Spirit within them. It is made known, made visible by their good deeds. But they are unaware of the knowledge of this God to the degree as if it was preached to them. Otherwise, it would make no sense to even PREACH the Gospel in the first place, if "all men were granted grace through faith in Christ".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I've given scripture and challenged yours, but you don't hear. There's not much point in trying to tell you the same thing you didn't accept before.

You have done no such thing. Nowhere have you answered my request to show me from Scriptures your claims that one must be perfect to receive "earn" salvation. Nor that God awaits the perfect Law follower before granting Mercy. Among other things. Merely stating things is not an example of proof.

What Scriptures have you given that backs up your claim? Maybe I missed it. I think what has happened is that you are confusing your theology with the Bible, PRESUMING that what you have been taught is effectively backed up by Scriptures. However, a closer examination reveals otherwise.

This verse isn't just talking about the Gospel that came after Christ, but the Gospel that came before. Notice Isaiah...he was preaching the same gospel....the same faith.

The "Gospel" you are now speaking of is on salvation by faith, but not salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was not "known" before the first century, correct? The faith of the Jews, or any Gentile of good faith, was in God, the creator of the universe, a God that one can know and is self-evident through creation. It is a start, but man can know God by rational thought. The Greeks, especially, were able to "know" God through philosophy, such as the idea of Logos, which Christians borrow in their subsequent writings. Man can also know God through their conscience - the Law written on the heart, the Law that directs us to do things that our "fleshy minds" would not want to do.

But this is not yet "faith in Jesus Christ", as you assume. Most men of faith were ignorant of Jesus Christ, although Jesus (or more properly, the Word of God) worked in their hearts.

Before Peter and Paul there were prophets preaching Jesus Christ, the coming Saviour. You can go to the OT and read all about Jesus.

They (OT prophets) weren't preaching "Jesus Christ" as we know Him. Have you READ the OT? They were preaching the promise of God to His people. They could never have GUESSED what God had in store for them... Why do you think Jesus was so very subtle with referring to Himself as God?

Jesus is never mentioned directly in the OT. That Jesus is the "heart" of the OT is based upon faith and reading the OT through the Christian mindset.

Regards

 

[ivdavid]

Do any of you have an explanation as to why Paul would write something that he simply does not believe?

I was trying to get there through this post#356 of mine. I think you missed it.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You have done no such thing. Nowhere have you answered my request to show me from Scriptures your claims that one must be perfect to receive "earn" salvation. Nor that God awaits the perfect Law follower before granting Mercy. Among other things. Merely stating things is not an example of proof.

What Scriptures have you given that backs up your claim? Maybe I missed it. I think what has happened is that you are confusing your theology with the Bible, PRESUMING that what you have been taught is effectively backed up by Scriptures. However, a closer examination reveals otherwise.



The "Gospel" you are now speaking of is on salvation by faith, but not salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was not "known" before the first century, correct? The faith of the Jews, or any Gentile of good faith, was in God, the creator of the universe, a God that one can know and is self-evident through creation. It is a start, but man can know God by rational thought. The Greeks, especially, were able to "know" God through philosophy, such as the idea of Logos, which Christians borrow in their subsequent writings. Man can also know God through their conscience - the Law written on the heart, the Law that directs us to do things that our "fleshy minds" would not want to do.

But this is not yet "faith in Jesus Christ", as you assume. Most men of faith were ignorant of Jesus Christ, although Jesus (or more properly, the Word of God) worked in their hearts.



They (OT prophets) weren't preaching "Jesus Christ" as we know Him. Have you READ the OT? They were preaching the promise of God to His people. They could never have GUESSED what God had in store for them... Why do you think Jesus was so very subtle with referring to Himself as God?

Jesus is never mentioned directly in the OT. That Jesus is the "heart" of the OT is based upon faith and reading the OT through the Christian mindset.

Regards

Fran---- Nowhere have you answered my request to show me from Scriptures your claims that one must be perfect to receive "earn" salvation.

Grubal-----We are made perfect through Christ. Glorydaz never suggested a person had to be perfect to earn salvation. You distorted his view. You've also done that with me...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You have done no such thing. Nowhere have you answered my request to show me from Scriptures your claims that one must be perfect to receive "earn" salvation. Nor that God awaits the perfect Law follower before granting Mercy. Among other things. Merely stating things is not an example of proof.

What Scriptures have you given that backs up your claim? Maybe I missed it. I think what has happened is that you are confusing your theology with the Bible, PRESUMING that what you have been taught is effectively backed up by Scriptures. However, a closer examination reveals otherwise.



The "Gospel" you are now speaking of is on salvation by faith, but not salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was not "known" before the first century, correct? The faith of the Jews, or any Gentile of good faith, was in God, the creator of the universe, a God that one can know and is self-evident through creation. It is a start, but man can know God by rational thought. The Greeks, especially, were able to "know" God through philosophy, such as the idea of Logos, which Christians borrow in their subsequent writings. Man can also know God through their conscience - the Law written on the heart, the Law that directs us to do things that our "fleshy minds" would not want to do.

But this is not yet "faith in Jesus Christ", as you assume. Most men of faith were ignorant of Jesus Christ, although Jesus (or more properly, the Word of God) worked in their hearts.



They (OT prophets) weren't preaching "Jesus Christ" as we know Him. Have you READ the OT? They were preaching the promise of God to His people. They could never have GUESSED what God had in store for them... Why do you think Jesus was so very subtle with referring to Himself as God?

Jesus is never mentioned directly in the OT. That Jesus is the "heart" of the OT is based upon faith and reading the OT through the Christian mindset.

Regards

Fran----What Scriptures have you given that backs up your claim? Maybe I missed it. I think what has happened is that you are confusing your theology with the Bible, PRESUMING that what you have been taught is effectively backed up by Scriptures. However, a closer examination reveals otherwise.

Grubal-----Glorydaz, didn't even suggest such an "absurd" doctrine...How do you expect him to give you Scriptures and give opinions on a "distorted" premise??

 

[glorydaz]

I disagree, it is faith in God, not the Messiah. The Jews did not consider that the Messiah would be God Himself, in the flesh. That was why Christianity was so different from Judaism. What one would call a "cognitive dissonance".

Oh, a "cognitive dissonance", huh?

That's a little over my head, but this isn't.


There are hundreds of quotes I could give that would prove you are mistaken in what you say.
There really is no point discussing this with you if you can't even be convinced by Scripture.

I'll just leave you with these.

God Himself...born of a virgin.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us)

Faith in God and the promise. Not faith in Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.

Sure sounds like redemptive work to me, and His hanging on a tree is also there.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Cognitive dissonance---- is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. Mighty big $5 dollar word!!!

 

[WIP]

Please, let's keep our comments objective to the topic of the thread and avoid personal innuendo that may be construed as insult or sarcasm.

 

[Drew]

I am not "focused on Romans 2:6-7". Perhaps you are thinking of Drew.

Probably. And while I have not read some of the more recent posts, I will wager that no one has given any kind of reasonable account as to while why Paul would write this:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

....when he in fact does not believe this.

The "you have to read the broader context" argument does not work precisely because no reasonable person would assert the opposite of what he is trying to argue for in that broader context.

Unless, of course, the material was appropriately qualified (e.g. if Paul had introduced chapter 2 with some sort of "I am about to tell you about a path to salvation that is not achievable" statement.

And, of course, he makes so such statement.

When people suggest I am focused on this verse, I suggest the real issue is that they do not have a plausible explanation for the presence of this text and "wish it would go away".

But, here is another text that I suggest those who deny final salvation by deeds will need to sweep under the rug as well:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

By context, the issue here is eternal life.

Another clear assertion that good deeds matter in respect to final salvation.

 

[Drew]

I was trying to get there through this post#356 of mine. I think you missed it.

I did miss it. No time now, but I will read your material carefully and get back to you.

 

[Drew]

Nowhere have you answered my request to show me from Scriptures your claims that one must be perfect to receive "earn" salvation.

Agree.

It appears to commonly believed that if final salvation were granted according to deeds, no one could qualify on that basis precisely because one would need to be perfect in terms of doing good deed.

Well, that is kind of like believing that the Bible says "Cleanliness is next to Godliness". Such a statement appears nowhere in the Bible, even though many people believe it does.

Likewise, there is not one single statement in the scriptures asserting that a "good works" standard for salvation would require perfection.

 

[glorydaz]

Agree.

It appears to commonly believed that if final salvation were granted according to deeds, no one could qualify on that basis precisely because one would need to be perfect in terms of doing good deed.

Well, that is kind of like believing that the Bible says "Cleanliness is next to Godliness". Such a statement appears nowhere in the Bible, even though many people believe it does.

Likewise, there is not one single statement in the scriptures asserting that a "good works" standard for salvation would require perfection.

Actually, scripture has been given, but you guys seem to have skipped right over those verses in your excitement to refute what I (and other people) have said. I will take the time to repost those, but I have my granddaughter here this evening and a game of Yahtzee is calling.