Salvation by faith alone/only?

[reba]

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Num 19:19 And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:

Lev 14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:

I know this is not the same a baptizem IMO it shows why some folks might understand the sprinkling. I would rather be baptized with a cup of water over my head, so to speak, in a desert then not baptized at all.

When we speak of His death and burial we today are not buried as He was.

 

[ivdavid]

I disagree with your statement - that a perfect follower of the law does not require mercy.

What has the perfect follower of the law transgressed, for him to require mercy? The very concept of mercy arises only when there is a transgression of disobedience. I'd refer to Romans 11:32 here.

Also, please provide a working definition of mercy that you subscribe to.

but the point is, that a Divine Being is not REQUIRED to be "just" by the Western Christian definition, BY DEFINITION.

I disagree. Why must this be so according to any definition? God must necessarily be Just, for Him to be God. If God were not required to be Just, then you're saying He could be unjust and that would simply break down the very definition of God's nature - thereby not being a possibility. I'm not quite sure how you meant that - I'd really like you to clarify.

God is not bound by the Law. He binds Himself.

I think you're again deriving this from "God is not required to be Just" - and I'm here saying God cannot deny His own nature - and it's in His nature to be Just - and therefore God is necessarily Just all the time. Besides, what He promises... He must fulfill. And God has promised life to all who do His commandments - so, if one does His commandments, God must grant him life. But this is the very works salvation that you're railing against.

I don't understand what you mean by "God binds Himself" - does God have a choice not to be Just and does He then bind Himself to one particular choice? I'm saying that God cannot even consider a choice of being unjust - so where does the concept of "God binding Himself" arise?

God says "obey My Commandments", but He doesn't say "you must obey them perfectly, without fail".

This doesn't address the point I'm making. God did say in Lev 18:5 that if one does His commandments, such a one would be granted life. Take the phrase, "does His commandments" to mean whatever you want. And then tell me if Lev 18:5 can indeed result in life?

Consider looking at the Psalms...There is no understanding of gaining salvation by "my own works". There is an understanding of gaining salvation by mercy through faith in God.

True words of a regenerated believer in God sound like those in the Psalms.

Let us try and resolve the confusion here - simply tell me how you've understood Lev 18:5 - does "doing the commandments" there refer to man's own works or man's works of synergy with God?

God didn't "need" to send Jesus to the cross! That is probably the basis of your mistaken idea on "perfect Law following".....An incorrect notion of why Jesus gave His life on the cross.

Wasn't able to entirely follow you there. God does not tolerate the slightest sin without rendering it its due - this is the manifestation of His being Just by nature. Now I'd agree that God need not justify sinners, but given that He has chosen to have mercy upon whom He will, He is now required to send Jesus to the cross - God cannot justify sinners and still remain Just without Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

"And what is the correct notion of why Jesus gave His life on the cross, according to your belief framework?"

Continued...

 

[ivdavid]

... Continuing,

We know, by revelation, that salvation is a gift.

In my initial post to you, I'd written two paragraphs on distinguishing between the old covenant where salvation was a wage - and the new covenant where salvation is a gift. I can't find where you've addressed these - if you haven't, I'd like you to and if you have, I'd like you to point me to them.

The Bible does not tell us that mercy is always unconditional. Mercy is granted to those who make a semblance of conversion/repentance.

Since mercy is what leads one to conversion/repentance, it still is not conditional.

I have a very simple view of the law of works - it has a conditional "if...then" clause -
"If you(man) do this....then I(God) will do this. If you don't do this...then I will do that"
The above is the old covenant.

The new covenant goes like this -
"I(God) will do this in you(man) and consequently you will do this."

Here, the law of faith has an evidential "if...then" clause -
"if you do this(good)....then it is evidence of God doing this in you"

So, every single statement that you construe to be a conditional "if..then" clause, I'd read as an evidential "if..then" clause.

If salvation is UTTERLY a gift, and no gift is merited conditionally...

The secondary "condition" would be the "merit" seen through some conversion or repentance.

A gift ceases to be a gift if it is made conditional on merit - I don't quite see this the same way you're seeing it.

Isn't faith a "work", according to Jesus?

That's the beauty of John 6:28-29. Jesus states a paradox. When people come to Him and ask Him what they must do to be saved - He essentially says they're to do nothing but to rest on what He does and what He does alone. Even such resting on Him(faith) is not exercised out of man's own works, hence we claim that faith too is given of God and is not of ourselves.

 

[glorydaz]

Sure... You are stating it and don't even realize it. Still...

Stop and think for a minute here. I don't just make blind accusations. I have read your posts carefully. Have you, from MY point of view? Step outside of your box for a second and bear with me here, my friend.

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE STATE THAT GOD'S RIGHTEOUS LAW REQUIRES PERFECTION???? You state you never said that, but indeed, you are, over and over again. Let's follow the logic to its conclusion...

Plain and simple. "Your theology" requires a perfect Law follower before God grants mercy. Over and over, you tell me that "no one can perfectly fulfill the Law", which makes perfection a requirement, does it not? Thus, again, the requirement of Jesus Christ, the "perfect Law follower".

In "your theology", God is waiting for that perfect Law follower - Jesus Christ. Correct??? THEN and ONLY THEN is it POSSIBLE for God to grant mercy, since now, His "righteous requirements" are met. Correct? Justice must be met, and only met by the perfect Law Follower. Apparently, there is some "Law" that binds God, Who must await that righteous Law follower FIRST! Only such perfection is God's justice met.

This very idea changes the center of gravity from GOD granting mercy to MAN earning it by perfection. Yes. Indeed. I have even been told by you that the Father DOES owe Jesus, even AFTER I cite Philippians 2 and the ultimate example of kenosis provided by our Lord.

I'm sorry, Joe, but I have to break your posts down into bite-sized pieces.

God's righteous law does require perfection....only the doer of the law is justified. You say, "Your theology" requires a perfect Law follower before God grants mercy", but Jesus Christ IS God's mercy to man. Without Jesus dying in our place, man would be forever cut off from our Righteous God. If we were sinless, we wouldn't need God's mercy at all.

"The soul that sinneth it shall die." Man is under a sentence of death because all men sin and come short of the glory of God. Jesus Christ died for us so we wouldn't have to. He fulfilled the requirements of the law for us. He was the only man who never sinned, thus obeying the law of God in it's totality. He took the penalty of the law that was due us. The Lamb without blemish.

It is only a PERFECT keeper of the law that can fulfill the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS of the law. If you fail in one point, you are guilty of all.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Which is why only the "Doer of the Law" is justified before God. Jesus is the only "doer".

So whether the gentile who has the law of God written in their conscience or the Jew who has both the law in his conscience and the law of Moses, both will perish because of sin.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

God's mercy is what sent Jesus Christ to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. It required 100% sinless perfection, which Jesus had and man does not.

I have NEVER said the Father owes Jesus. NEVER. We're the ones who owe Jesus because He took the punishment for sin in our stead. God didn't have to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to extend mercy to man, but He did "wink" or overlook the sinfulness of man until He gave us the divine revelation of Jesus. Now He's caled all men to repent.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Now, please, instead of insisting I'm saying something I'm not, just ask me to try and clarify whatever I'm not making clear enough. Maybe...Are you saying thus and so?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation is not by Faith alone, Salvation is by Grace alone.

Eph 2:5,8

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It does not read for by Faith are ye saved. Man is not saved by His Faith !

Acts 15:11

But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Faith is not even mentioned in this verse !

Faith is given to those who are saved by Grace ! Faith is given so the saved may know of their salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

WORKS SALVATION. If it looks like and smells like "works salvation", even if by any other name, or your continued denials...

According to you, God now owes Jesus... Salvation has become a wage, payment. Something earned. God is OBLIGATED to pay Jesus. And Jesus is in heaven to "collect it". For all the unperfect law followers...

That is NOT what the Scriptures state about the relationship between the Son of God and the Father. Nor about salvation.

Your idea of salvagtion still is SOMEONE having to DO something, obligating God. YOU stated that "God's righteous Law must be satisfied". HOW? By a perfect law follower, correct??? God the Father is not making a decision of mercy or love, but is being REQUIRED, OBLIGATED to grant salvation, by that perfect Law follower. Thus, God awaits the perfect man, and then, God OWES salvation to The Perfect Law Follower...

That is NOT why God grants salvation. Jesus did NOT come so that He could be the perfect Law follower and force God to grant salvation!!!

God grants mercy out of love for His Son. Not out of paying back what His Son did. Can you understand the difference and how such a simple thing can totally turn upside down what Christians have been taught to believe from the beginning?

God saves out of mercy and love, not out of obligation - even to the perfect Law follower.

Regards

Nope, as I stated in my last post, I've never even suggested that God owes Jesus anything. He is not obligated to pay Jesus anything. Jesus willing laid down His life so that we might live. I'm not sure how you came up with any of this....Jesus is in heaven to collect?????

Jesus came to break down the sin barrier between man and God. The prison door has been opened. It is not something we do, it's something Jesus did for us. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on this.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation is not by Faith alone, Salvation is by Grace alone.

Eph 2:5,8

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It does not read for by Faith are ye saved. Man is not saved by His Faith !

Acts 15:11

But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Faith is not even mentioned in this verse !

Faith is given to those who are saved by Grace ! Faith is given so the saved may know of their salvation.

First comes grace, then comes faith, then comes new birth....

Liken it to this....First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes mama with a baby carriage. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

What has the perfect follower of the law transgressed, for him to require mercy? The very concept of mercy arises only when there is a transgression of disobedience. I'd refer to Romans 11:32 here.

Exactly. If a man is accused of a murder he didn't commit. The Judge will find him innocent.

No mercy required there.

 

[francisdesales]

Nope, as I stated in my last post, I've never even suggested that God owes Jesus anything. He is not obligated to pay Jesus anything. Jesus willing laid down His life so that we might live. I'm not sure how you came up with any of this....Jesus is in heaven to collect?????

Oh brother, another guy who "forgot" what he wrote. No, I won't give into the temptation...

Over and over, you have stated that a person, SOMEONE (Jesus) must perfectly fulfill the law. There is a NECESSITY for someone to perfectly fulfill the Law, otherwise, God "cannot" grant mercy. You even state that Jesus was justifying Himself, making it very clear that in your mind, salvation comes from works - perfection in following the Law!

Here are some examples from your own posts:

#415 The law has to be satisfied before mercy can be dispensed.
#400 We must be perfect doers of the law (as Christ was) or we come by grace through faith in Jesus. We either satisfy the perfect law of God completely, which we can't, or we accept Jesus' work on the cross as a gift from God.
# 381 There is no amount of law following that will give us eternal life, because we are not perfect like our Lord was.
# 363 Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping. Jesus is the only "doer of the law", and as you can see from this verse, the "doers of the law" are justified.

That last post, #363, that was a doozy. "Jesus is the only doer of the Law", when the Bible speaks in the PLURAL... My utter amazement in such a ridiculous post (about Jesus justifying Himself) is seen in Post #365.



There is no denying this. The argument is being made, by you, knowingly or not, that a sinless law-follower is the only one who can earn eternal life. The two alternatives "we either satisfy the perfect Law of God completely OR "Jesus does it for us". In EITHER case, God is doing just what you told us He is waiting for in post #415. A perfect Law follower.

Let's focus on that.

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE STATE THIS IS A REQUIREMENT for salvation - even if impossible to do???? You state it so nonchalantly (and how stupid I must appear to you that I don't 'get it') that you are not even thinking about answering me. I have asked you this quite a number of times, and you have refused to answer it. Either accusing me of "not understanding what I am saying" or other more sinister motives... But isn't it clear that you have built an argument that requires SOMEONE to fulfill the Law BEFORE God grants mercy? You have even SAID this, with your own words...!

You state emphatically, against Scriptures, that only Jesus was a perfect follower of the Law. Man cannot follow God's Law, (you earlier state the Law exists to show exactly that we cannot follow the Law, again, against Scriptures) Then, you present me with the "answer". Jesus is the Only perfect law follower. THAT is why we are saved. NOT because of mercy, but because SOMEONE followed the Law perfectly. That is exactly what you are saying...

A wage is being paid, not a free gift being given. Your focus is on the follower of the Law, SO AS TO EARN SOMETHING. So that "God's Justice" would be satisfied, you stated.

There is no gift given, in such a situation. Either God is paying a wage, or a "force" is making God grant salvation, as you present it.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

im cornfused. the death by the lord was so that we could be forgiven and that our sins were paid for. when we repent he takes the punishment(took). this is an act of mercy and grace.

mercy in that he does allow that and the punishment was paid for. and grace in that we get what we dont deserve.

we cant follow the law perfectly and that was the point of the cross but that doesnt mean we are to ignore the law. i think joe and glorydaz are miscommunicating.

solo fide is this having faith in the atonement to be cleansed from one sins and by doing so you act on that repentant faith. you no longer do those things that you used to do.

you attend the local body
you pray
you repent when you sin as you offend the lord that you now love
you change, and its noticed!
you love others as God loved you.

without these or so forth(see galatians 5 for further info) we simply arent saved.

its faith with works that is real.

why oh why does the modern protestant churches fail to teach basic biblical faith these days. its seems we want the pastor to teach us all. open the bible and pray and read. when done with the book start over.

 

[francisdesales]

Exactly. If a man is accused of a murder he didn't commit. The Judge will find him innocent.

No mercy required there.

Comparison of apples and cars...

 

[francisdesales]

im cornfused. the death by the lord was so that we could be forgiven and that our sins were paid for. when we repent he takes the punishment(took). this is an act of mercy and grace.

mercy in that he does allow that and the punishment was paid for. and grace in that we get what we dont deserve.

we cant follow the law perfectly and that was the point of the cross but that doesnt mean we are to ignore the law. i think joe and glorydaz are miscommunicating.

Well, it seems there is too much emphasis on "we can't follow the Law perfectly" as part of the "salvation formula" in Protestantism for this to be "miscommunicating", for I have heard the same thing from others, as well... The formula is well-known : "no one can perfectly fulfill the Law. So Jesus fulfilled it and took our place, granting salvation to us as a result of that perfection accomplished by Christ".

It is a misapplication of what the Scriptures teach.

While it is true that Jesus perfectly followed the Law, this is NOT why God redeemed us. LOVE, not perfection, is the reasoning behind our salvation. There is no such "requirement" of perfection in Scriptures, but it keeps getting mentioned, over and over, ad nauseum, taken for granted that it is part of Scriptures, when no one has yet made any such Biblical citation to prove it.

At the end of the day, this emphasis on the "why" of our salvation is based upon perfect execution of the Law. This leads one to believe salvation is a wage paid for perfection, something paid to Jesus Christ out of obligation, rather than a gift given freely to those who CANNOT perfectly follow the Law...

Regards

 

[Danus]

Well, it seems there is too much emphasis on "we can't follow the Law perfectly" as part of the "salvation formula" in Protestantism for this to be "miscommunicating", for I have heard the same thing from others, as well... The formula is well-known : "no one can perfectly fulfill the Law. So Jesus fulfilled it and took our place, granting salvation to us as a result of that perfection accomplished by Christ".

It is a misapplication of what the Scriptures teach.

While it is true that Jesus perfectly followed the Law, this is NOT why God redeemed us. LOVE, not perfection, is the reasoning behind our salvation. There is no such "requirement" of perfection in Scriptures, but it keeps getting mentioned, over and over, ad nauseum, taken for granted that it is part of Scriptures, when no one has yet made any such Biblical citation to prove it.

At the end of the day, this emphasis on the "why" of our salvation is based upon perfect execution of the Law. This leads one to believe salvation is a wage paid for perfection, something paid to Jesus Christ out of obligation, rather than a gift given freely to those who CANNOT perfectly follow the Law...

Regards

Not all Protestants follow the idea of perfection as the reason for salvation. I would agree that God's love for man is the reason.

Perfection in Christ following the law to me is a testimate to his deity only. Still his perfection as a sacrifice speaks to a debit we owe but can not pay....let me add, due to our imperfection.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

First comes grace, then comes faith, then comes new birth....

That is your doctrine, not God's, You promote salvation by works, something man does. You have already admitted that what Christ has done alone for the people he did it for, does not save them.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh brother, another guy who "forgot" what he wrote. No, I won't give into the temptation...

Over and over, you have stated that a person, SOMEONE (Jesus) must perfectly fulfill the law. There is a NECESSITY for someone to perfectly fulfill the Law, otherwise, God "cannot" grant mercy. You even state that Jesus was justifying Himself, making it very clear that in your mind, salvation comes from works - perfection in following the Law!

Here are some examples from your own posts:

#415 The law has to be satisfied before mercy can be dispensed.
#400 We must be perfect doers of the law (as Christ was) or we come by grace through faith in Jesus. We either satisfy the perfect law of God completely, which we can't, or we accept Jesus' work on the cross as a gift from God.
# 381 There is no amount of law following that will give us eternal life, because we are not perfect like our Lord was.
# 363 Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping. Jesus is the only "doer of the law", and as you can see from this verse, the "doers of the law" are justified.

That last post, #363, that was a doozy. "Jesus is the only doer of the Law", when the Bible speaks in the PLURAL... My utter amazement in such a ridiculous post (about Jesus justifying Himself) is seen in Post #365.



There is no denying this. The argument is being made, by you, knowingly or not, that a sinless law-follower is the only one who can earn eternal life. The two alternatives "we either satisfy the perfect Law of God completely OR "Jesus does it for us". In EITHER case, God is doing just what you told us He is waiting for in post #415. A perfect Law follower.

I have to laugh, Joe.

#363 - "Yes, Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping. Phil. doesn't say otherwise. Jesus is called the JUST ONE and didn't need to avail Himself of the free gift."

Please note the quotation marks. Those were your words, so I was trying to speak in your language to get you to see that Jesus was the only Just (righteous) one, and you were questioning His justification abilities.

#381 - "There is no amount of law following that will give us eternal life, because we are not perfect like our Lord was. "

This is exactly correct. Our following the law will not give us eternal life because we SIN.

#400 We must be perfect doers of the law (as Christ was) or we come by grace through faith in Jesus. We either satisfy the perfect law of God completely, which we can't, or we accept Jesus' work on the cross as a gift from God."

This one doesn't even require an explanation. It's correct, exactly as it stands.
You should note, the either or (in case you missed it). We have two choices...
Follow the law perfectly OR come by faith through Christ.

Obviously, you believe there is a third choice.
Perfectly obey the law or come by faith...............OR..................what, Joe?
A little faith and a little law and baptism.

This concept is totally foreign to you, so I guess I'll just let you scoff and shake my head in amazement.

I can't even want to read the rest of what you've written...it's just....sad.

 

[glorydaz]

im cornfused. the death by the lord was so that we could be forgiven and that our sins were paid for. when we repent he takes the punishment(took). this is an act of mercy and grace.

mercy in that he does allow that and the punishment was paid for. and grace in that we get what we dont deserve.

we cant follow the law perfectly and that was the point of the cross but that doesnt mean we are to ignore the law. i think joe and glorydaz are miscommunicating.

solo fide is this having faith in the atonement to be cleansed from one sins and by doing so you act on that repentant faith. you no longer do those things that you used to do.

you attend the local body
you pray
you repent when you sin as you offend the lord that you now love
you change, and its noticed!
you love others as God loved you.

without these or so forth(see galatians 5 for further info) we simply arent saved.

its faith with works that is real.

why oh why does the modern protestant churches fail to teach basic biblical faith these days. its seems we want the pastor to teach us all. open the bible and pray and read. when done with the book start over.

You're so right...Joe and I speak an entirely different language.

It can really be summed up so simply. Our sins required the sacrifice of a Lamb without blemish.
That's just the way God set it up.... as was shadowed in the OT.

We are saved by grace (Jesus Christ is the personification of that grace) through FAITH in Him.
Good deeds (which are the fruit of the Spirit - not the works of man) will follow after salvation.
The good deeds men see (fruit) are the evidence that we were saved.

I'm not sure why it has become so difficult.
It's really the simple gospel message that is preached all over the world.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm sorry, Joe, but I have to break your posts down into bite-sized pieces.

God's righteous law does require perfection....only the doer of the law is justified. You say, "Your theology" requires a perfect Law follower before God grants mercy", but Jesus Christ IS God's mercy to man. Without Jesus dying in our place, man would be forever cut off from our Righteous God. If we were sinless, we wouldn't need God's mercy at all.

"The soul that sinneth it shall die." Man is under a sentence of death because all men sin and come short of the glory of God. Jesus Christ died for us so we wouldn't have to. He fulfilled the requirements of the law for us. He was the only man who never sinned, thus obeying the law of God in it's totality. He took the penalty of the law that was due us. The Lamb without blemish.

It is only a PERFECT keeper of the law that can fulfill the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS of the law. If you fail in one point, you are guilty of all.


Which is why only the "Doer of the Law" is justified before God. Jesus is the only "doer".

So whether the gentile who has the law of God written in their conscience or the Jew who has both the law in his conscience and the law of Moses, both will perish because of sin.



God's mercy is what sent Jesus Christ to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. It required 100% sinless perfection, which Jesus had and man does not.

I have NEVER said the Father owes Jesus. NEVER. We're the ones who owe Jesus because He took the punishment for sin in our stead. God didn't have to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to extend mercy to man, but He did "wink" or overlook the sinfulness of man until He gave us the divine revelation of Jesus. Now He's caled all men to repent.



Now, please, instead of insisting I'm saying something I'm not, just ask me to try and clarify whatever I'm not making clear enough. Maybe...Are you saying thus and so?

AMEN My Brother!!!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, it seems there is too much emphasis on "we can't follow the Law perfectly" as part of the "salvation formula" in Protestantism for this to be "miscommunicating", for I have heard the same thing from others, as well... The formula is well-known : "no one can perfectly fulfill the Law. So Jesus fulfilled it and took our place, granting salvation to us as a result of that perfection accomplished by Christ".

It is a misapplication of what the Scriptures teach.

While it is true that Jesus perfectly followed the Law, this is NOT why God redeemed us. LOVE, not perfection, is the reasoning behind our salvation. There is no such "requirement" of perfection in Scriptures, but it keeps getting mentioned, over and over, ad nauseum, taken for granted that it is part of Scriptures, when no one has yet made any such Biblical citation to prove it.

At the end of the day, this emphasis on the "why" of our salvation is based upon perfect execution of the Law. This leads one to believe salvation is a wage paid for perfection, something paid to Jesus Christ out of obligation, rather than a gift given freely to those who CANNOT perfectly follow the Law...

Regards

Do you Sir, believe that you (personally) can follow and fulfill the law 100%?? If so, and that's what your trying to do, in order to receive eternal life, Then you'll be the "first" one since the Lord Jesus Christ, and I commend you...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Do you Sir, believe that you (personally) can follow and fulfill the law 100%?? If so, and that's what your trying to do, in order to receive eternal life, Then you'll be the "first" one since the Lord Jesus Christ, and I commend you...

You may as well join that same thinking, for you also believe a person must keep a commandment to be saved. Do you now deny that a man must do something to be saved ?

 

[jasoncran]

Well, it seems there is too much emphasis on "we can't follow the Law perfectly" as part of the "salvation formula" in Protestantism for this to be "miscommunicating", for I have heard the same thing from others, as well... The formula is well-known : "no one can perfectly fulfill the Law. So Jesus fulfilled it and took our place, granting salvation to us as a result of that perfection accomplished by Christ".

It is a misapplication of what the Scriptures teach.

While it is true that Jesus perfectly followed the Law, this is NOT why God redeemed us. LOVE, not perfection, is the reasoning behind our salvation. There is no such "requirement" of perfection in Scriptures, but it keeps getting mentioned, over and over, ad nauseum, taken for granted that it is part of Scriptures, when no one has yet made any such Biblical citation to prove it.

At the end of the day, this emphasis on the "why" of our salvation is based upon perfect execution of the Law. This leads one to believe salvation is a wage paid for perfection, something paid to Jesus Christ out of obligation, rather than a gift given freely to those who CANNOT perfectly follow the Law...

Regards

god by his nature loved us and sent his to die for us. its not that he had to. he did because he cared . i dont have to be married. i can leave my wife any day. i choose to stay. God doesnt and didnt have to love us. he chooses too.

he has a nature and that is perfect but he isnt or doesnt make us serve him. we are obligated to him , he isnt to us.