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Salvation by faith alone/only?

Agree.

It appears to commonly believed that if final salvation were granted according to deeds, no one could qualify on that basis precisely because one would need to be perfect in terms of doing good deed.

Well, that is kind of like believing that the Bible says "Cleanliness is next to Godliness". Such a statement appears nowhere in the Bible, even though many people believe it does.

Likewise, there is not one single statement in the scriptures asserting that a "good works" standard for salvation would require perfection.

I don't see why your so interested in being perfect so far as works goes. It's quite clear that, "works" so far as receiving the "Grace of God" is, "irrelevant" due to the fact, salvation is a "free gift" of God that cannot be earned through works...So unless you intend to, "try and work your way to Heaven" I don't understand your "fascination" with works?? Why would you try and "earn" something when everybody else is getting it for free, that's not logical...If you really believe you have to do all kinds of "good works" to gain eternal life, then "are you doing just that?? Are you "sure that you're a child of God to begin with??" Because, that's the only starting point. After you're certain of that fact, then, works will follow that are of "Spiritual value."
 
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Fran---- Nowhere have you answered my request to show me from Scriptures your claims that one must be perfect to receive "earn" salvation.

Grubal-----We are made perfect through Christ. Glorydaz never suggested a person had to be perfect to earn salvation. You distorted his view. You've also done that with me...

I am afraid he, and you, have done exactly that - but you don't realize it...

How?

By stating that God awaited a perfect Law follower, {EVEN Jesus Christ}, before redeeming man. In other words, IF someone obeyed the Law perfectly, they have obligated God to pay that one salvation. It is your contention that a perfect man is owed salvation. God OWES someone who is blameless in the Law. If the potential exists for a man to be perfect - as Jesus - and then state that God now owes Jesus something, then you claim that salvation is something that God owes - it is no longer gift!

This is a false idea, a contortion of the Gospel, for even a perfect follower of the Law does not "earn" mercy!!! Such is a wage. And very clearly, Paul states that salvation is a GIFT. The work of Jesus Christ did not "force" the Father to grant salvation to mankind. And that is where your theology utterly fails. It is based upon works salvation. Even the work of Jesus Christ does not FORCE the Father to grant redemption to mankind!

GOD DOES SO OUT OF LOVE, NOT BECAUSE HE IS COMPELLED TO PAY A WAGE!!!

There is no provision in the OT that states any such "rule" of perfection. Nor does the NT state that "if ANYONE follows the Law perfectly (EVEN JESUS!), that God is COMPELLED to pay anything to mankind. Thus, you have violated one of the first rules of Protestantism - sola scriptura...

Is this sinking in? The Father grants salvation out of mercy, not as wages to pay for the work of Jesus! Jesus' suffering and death was out of love for mankind and the Father's will. You are misapplying the righteousness of God into something that God OWES. God grants salvation out of love and mercy, not out of wages paid.

Salvation is UTTERLY a gift.

God the Father grants mercy and salvation to mankind through the work of Jesus Christ out of utter mercy and salvation, not because the Father "owes" the Son. By stating that "the perfect follower of the law" earns salvation means that the salvation is works based.

How utterly ironic, don't you think?

Regards
 
Actually, scripture has been given, but you guys seem to have skipped right over those verses in your excitement to refute what I (and other people) have said. I will take the time to repost those, but I have my granddaughter here this evening and a game of Yahtzee is calling.

Scriptures have been given, but they have been shown to NOT back up your contention. I have addressed all of your citations - and none of them tell us that God owes ANYONE salvation for a person being perfect in law following.

God owes NO ONE anything. Even a perfect Law follower.

You have failed to back that up with Scriptures. Your citations so far say nothing on this subject.

Regards
 
I am afraid that Paul is quite clear - final salvation is indeed based on good works. Here is the text again:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Question: In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?

My answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, please?

Question: In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?

My answer is "what they have done" or "persistence in doing good".

What your answer, please?

When we read what Paul actually writes - and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.

Well, I'm finally getting around to answering on your post #134 Drew!
But I have to ask you another question & that is: what do you call "final salvation?" To me, final salvation is the crown of life after this earthly realm.
There is "salvation" in this present life too, & in that sense, our "obedience" may have a reap & sow effect.
But "final salvation?" - the "salvation of your souls" is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.â€[b] (Rom.4:4-8)
 
I am afraid he, and you, have done exactly that - but you don't realize it...

How?

By stating that God awaited a perfect Law follower, {EVEN Jesus Christ}, before redeeming man. In other words, IF someone obeyed the Law perfectly, they have obligated God to pay that one salvation. It is your contention that a perfect man is owed salvation. God OWES someone who is blameless in the Law. If the potential exists for a man to be perfect - as Jesus - and then state that God now owes Jesus something, then you claim that salvation is something that God owes - it is no longer gift!

This is a false idea, a contortion of the Gospel, for even a perfect follower of the Law does not "earn" mercy!!! Such is a wage. And very clearly, Paul states that salvation is a GIFT. The work of Jesus Christ did not "force" the Father to grant salvation to mankind. And that is where your theology utterly fails. It is based upon works salvation. Even the work of Jesus Christ does not FORCE the Father to grant redemption to mankind!

GOD DOES SO OUT OF LOVE, NOT BECAUSE HE IS COMPELLED TO PAY A WAGE!!!

There is no provision in the OT that states any such "rule" of perfection. Nor does the NT state that "if ANYONE follows the Law perfectly (EVEN JESUS!), that God is COMPELLED to pay anything to mankind. Thus, you have violated one of the first rules of Protestantism - sola scriptura...

Is this sinking in? The Father grants salvation out of mercy, not as wages to pay for the work of Jesus! Jesus' suffering and death was out of love for mankind and the Father's will. You are misapplying the righteousness of God into something that God OWES. God grants salvation out of love and mercy, not out of wages paid.

Salvation is UTTERLY a gift.

God the Father grants mercy and salvation to mankind through the work of Jesus Christ out of utter mercy and salvation, not because the Father "owes" the Son. By stating that "the perfect follower of the law" earns salvation means that the salvation is works based.

How utterly ironic, don't you think?

Regards

The simplicity of the Grace of God is what you need to concentrate on, nothing else!!!
 
mondar

While I would agree that the atonement actually does save, this thread is about the issue of the human requirements of faith,

Do you believe that the Atonement actually saves without man doing the requirement of Faith ? Yes or No..
 
francisdesales said:
This is a false idea, a contortion of the Gospel, for even a perfect follower of the Law does not "earn" mercy!!!
A perfect follower of the Law does not "require" mercy.

If you disagree with my above statement, then we'll have to first discuss and agree on what "mercy" is, to then discuss about "salvation being a gift of mercy".

Such is a wage.
True. That is what the old covenant was. It was a contract proposed by God - that He would give life to those who would do His commandments(Lev 18:5). If man kept his side of the covenant and did God's commandments, then God would keep His side of the covenant and grant him life. The wages for doing the commandments was indeed life - just as the converse was true - the wages for not doing the commandments was death. Thus, it was appropriately called the Law of works as opposed to the Law of faith.

But no man could fulfill his side of the covenant - which is why there was a necessity for a new covenant - one in which God declared that He would do all in man.

And very clearly, Paul states that salvation is a GIFT.
True. This is the understanding under the new covenant - this is not to say that salvation was never promised in return for man's doing God's commandments, which the old covenant did say. Salvation is truly a gift now because none are able to attain it by their doing the commandments. The concept of 'perfectly' doing the commandments does not even enter the picture, because it's not possible for the flesh to ever obey God's commandments - and by "flesh", I refer to the nature that man is born with into the world as contrasted with the regenerated nature God creates in Him - and by "obeying the commandments", I refer to the obedience with the right inner disposition.

There is no provision in the OT that states any such "rule" of perfection.
As I said earlier, the requirement of perfection does not even arise, given that man falls so woefully short of it. But this is not to say that God tolerates imperfection - else, He wouldn't have needed to send Jesus to the cross.

I guess James 2:10 could be misread into implying this "rule" of perfection, as spanning over multiple acts of man - whereas it is only supposed to be read into a single act of man at a time. For instance, one might apply James 2:10 into saying that even if a person does 99 acts of good but transgresses the law in 1 act, he is still deemed a transgressor of the law. This 'rule' of perfection seems to make sense though I will not venture too deeply into it. I rather believe James 2:10 applies to only a single act at a time - where in any single act of man, even if you uphold most of the commandments but have failed in any single commandment, that act of yours is still deemed a transgression.

So, it's not a case of my performing 99 (good)acts of charity and 1 (bad)act of selfishness - it's a case of considering my every single act of charity and determining if I have transgressed any commandment. For instance, in a single act of charity, I could be giving alms to the poor without any love for him - or I could be giving alms while being puffed up with self-conceited self-pride. Even though giving alms might be considered good, I have transgressed the law in that act of charity because of failing in even a single commandment. This way, one could even be found a transgressor in all his 99 acts of charity too.

God grants salvation out of love and mercy, not out of wages paid.
Salvation is UTTERLY a gift.
Here we again come up against a fork in our beliefs. I believe both love and mercy to be unconditional, - therefore by definition itself, "salvation out of love and mercy" cannot be dependent on man's works at all. I'm not sure how you refer to "works" - I'm referring to simply any act of man's.

If salvation is UTTERLY a gift, and no gift is merited conditionally, then why impose the condition of works to receive the gift. And again, by salvation are you only referring to the final entry into the kingdom of God. Isn't salvation a process - beginning with man's regeneration and ending with his entry into the kingdom of God - An entire process of resting on God's works alone? This process then depends only upon whatever resulted in that first step of salvation, ie regeneration - And since that was not by our works, we can conclude that salvation is not based on our works.
 
Yea, repeat that 10 times. What do you think I have been saying all this time?

Fran, do you consider yourself a, "Born-again Child of the living God?" Do you have trust in your eternal destination? Were you to die now, where would you go? Does the "Holy Spirit, indwell you? Will you answer these questions? The Bible instructs us to be ready with an answer for the hope that is in us. So I would imagine you would answer these questions without hesitation or "ambiguity."
 
Fran, do you consider yourself a, "Born-again Child of the living God?" Do you have trust in your eternal destination? Were you to die now, where would you go? Does the "Holy Spirit, indwell you? Will you answer these questions? The Bible instructs us to be ready with an answer for the hope that is in us. So I would imagine you would answer these questions without hesitation or "ambiguity."

I have faith that God is righteous.

He doesn't owe me anything, even if I were to fulfill the Law perfectly, but has promised eternal life to those who seek Him out with faith working in love.

I am as a child of God. I don't concern myself with "perfection". I concern myself with my Father God's mercy.

Regards
 
I have faith that God is righteous.

He doesn't owe me anything, even if I were to fulfill the Law perfectly, but has promised eternal life to those who seek Him out with faith working in love.

I am as a child of God. I don't concern myself with "perfection". I concern myself with my Father God's mercy.

Regards

Then I take it you don't consider yourself a, "born-again Christian?" And it can be gathered from your answer that you don't "know" your eternal destination?? Do you think your name is written in the "Book of life ?' Are you concerned that you may end up being cast into the "lake of fire ?"
 
A perfect follower of the Law does not "require" mercy.

If you disagree with my above statement, then we'll have to first discuss and agree on what "mercy" is, to then discuss about "salvation being a gift of mercy".

I disagree with your statement - that a perfect follower of the law does not require mercy. Is a Divine Being bound by some "Law" that even "HE" must follow?

You imply that by definition, "God is just", meaning, that God is righteous and rewards those who obey the Law, giving them their due. We know that only through revelation, not by definition. There are one billion Muslims who think that 'God is just' means something entirely different. To THEM, 'God is just' means that God can do whatever He wants.

You and I will disagree with them - but the point is, that a Divine Being is not REQUIRED to be "just" by the Western Christian definition, BY DEFINITION. Even in OUR paradigm, a perfect Law follower is not owed a reward. We rely on the "reward" because our faith tells us that God is righteous and rewards (freely) those who meet His standards of "law following". Even a perfect Law follower would depend upon God to grant a reward - since there is nothing you could do to coerce God to grant it...

In either case, mercy is freely granted, not owed. Your initial statement above implies that God is obligated. He is not. God is not bound by the Law. He binds Himself.

But no man could fulfill his side of the covenant - which is why there was a necessity for a new covenant - one in which God declared that He would do all in man.

No man without God can perfectly fulfill the covenant, but that was not God's requirement to grant mercy. God says "obey My Commandments", but He doesn't say "you must obey them perfectly, without fail". Ridiculous. The Law ITSELF has provisions for Law "breakers".

True. This is the understanding under the new covenant - this is not to say that salvation was never promised in return for man's doing God's commandments, which the old covenant did say. Salvation is truly a gift now because none are able to attain it by their doing the commandments.

You are too focused on works salvation. Even for the Jews of the OT, they understood salvation as a gift, not as something earned as a reward. Consider looking at the Psalms. Maybe Psalm 119. It's long, but read it. There is no understanding of gaining salvation by "my own works". There is an understanding of gaining salvation by mercy through faith in God.

The concept of 'perfectly' doing the commandments does not even enter the picture, because it's not possible for the flesh to ever obey God's commandments

By even mentioning this "perfect requirement", you are focusing on "works salvation". Even if it is only theoretical, you have declared that God owes the perfect Law follower something. That makes salvation a potential wage. We know, by revelation, that salvation is a gift. Not because "no one can obey the Law" (since the Scriptures tell us otherwise).

As I said earlier, the requirement of perfection does not even arise, given that man falls so woefully short of it. But this is not to say that God tolerates imperfection - else, He wouldn't have needed to send Jesus to the cross.

God didn't "need" to send Jesus to the cross! That is probably the basis of your mistaken idea on "perfect Law following". Looking at things through your point of view, does the Bible state that the Father OWES the Son eternal life to those Jesus desires to give it? Or does the Father feeled compelled out of LOVE to grant mercy? This is where your theology "lives and dies". An incorrect notion of why Jesus gave His life on the cross.

I guess James 2:10 could be misread into implying this "rule" of perfection, as spanning over multiple acts of man - whereas it is only supposed to be read into a single act of man at a time. For instance, one might apply James 2:10 into saying that even if a person does 99 acts of good but transgresses the law in 1 act, he is still deemed a transgressor of the law.

And love is the fulfillment of the law... The bible doesn't seem too concerned about utter perfection in mankind. Much less than some Christians, at any rate.

This 'rule' of perfection seems to make sense though I will not venture too deeply into it. I rather believe James 2:10 applies to only a single act at a time - where in any single act of man, even if you uphold most of the commandments but have failed in any single commandment, that act of yours is still deemed a transgression.

Yes, but it doesn't follow that this one transgression keeps one out of heaven, since God is merciful to the one who repents.

Here we again come up against a fork in our beliefs. I believe both love and mercy to be unconditional

The Bible does not tell us that mercy is always unconditional. Mercy is granted to those who make a semblance of conversion/repentance.


If salvation is UTTERLY a gift, and no gift is merited conditionally,

It is in a secodary sense. But the primary sense depends upon the gift giver. The secondary "condition" would be the "merit" seen through some conversion or repentance.

And again, by salvation are you only referring to the final entry into the kingdom of God. Isn't salvation a process - beginning with man's regeneration and ending with his entry into the kingdom of God - An entire process of resting on God's works alone? This process then depends only upon whatever resulted in that first step of salvation, ie regeneration - And since that was not by our works, we can conclude that salvation is not based on our works.

Isn't faith a "work", according to Jesus?

Regards
 
You take it wrong. I'm Catholic, of course I am a "born again Christian"...



Having trouble reading, I see. Where did I say that I don't "know" my eternal destination?

I tire of the trick questions. Thanks.

Simply because your a Catholic does not automatically make you a, "born-again Christian. Their not "synonymous" In order to be "born-again you must (first of all) have the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit. And that's only after you have "placed" your faith in Christ as your Lord and Savior, and made confession to God that you are "truly a sinner" and in need of a Savoir, and that is Jesus...If you haven't placed your faith in Him, then you could not be "born -again" It doesn't come with "church affiliation."

Why would you consider (eternal destination) a "trick" question?? And again, I ask, do you "know" where you will spend eternity?? The Bible tells us (Christians) to be ready with an answer for the hope that is within us. So the Bible doesnt seem to think of these questions as being, "trick questions."
 
Simply because your a Catholic does not automatically make you a, "born-again Christian.

Anyone who is baptized is a "born again Christian". All Catholics are baptized. There are no unbaptized Catholics. So, yea, being Catholic means I am a "born again Christian"...

So the Bible doesnt seem to think of these questions as being, "trick questions."

I consider the motives of your question-asking. I highly doubt you care one way or the other if I am a "born again Christian". You are looking to "trick" me by not responding with the "proper formula", in your mind. That makes them "trick questions".

Consider your responses... It isn't based upon what I said, but upon proper formula...I tell you I am Catholic, am a born again Christian, but now, that is in doubt, according to you. No, I am only born again if I recite the "Protestant formula"...

I have answered in the affirmative. If you don't like the answers, there is little I can do to assuage your conscience.
 
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Careful guys

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.
 
There is only one baptism--Eph.4:5. Baptism must performed in the way the Bible teaches (burial) and for the reason or purpose for which the Bible teaches (remission of sins, be saved). Thus not every one who has undergone some kind of baptism is "born again".
 
I am afraid he, and you, have done exactly that - but you don't realize it...

How?

By stating that God awaited a perfect Law follower, {EVEN Jesus Christ}, before redeeming man. In other words, IF someone obeyed the Law perfectly, they have obligated God to pay that one salvation. It is your contention that a perfect man is owed salvation. God OWES someone who is blameless in the Law. If the potential exists for a man to be perfect - as Jesus - and then state that God now owes Jesus something, then you claim that salvation is something that God owes - it is no longer gift!

This is a false idea, a contortion of the Gospel, for even a perfect follower of the Law does not "earn" mercy!!! Such is a wage. And very clearly, Paul states that salvation is a GIFT. The work of Jesus Christ did not "force" the Father to grant salvation to mankind. And that is where your theology utterly fails. It is based upon works salvation. Even the work of Jesus Christ does not FORCE the Father to grant redemption to mankind!

GOD DOES SO OUT OF LOVE, NOT BECAUSE HE IS COMPELLED TO PAY A WAGE!!!

There is no provision in the OT that states any such "rule" of perfection. Nor does the NT state that "if ANYONE follows the Law perfectly (EVEN JESUS!), that God is COMPELLED to pay anything to mankind. Thus, you have violated one of the first rules of Protestantism - sola scriptura...

Is this sinking in? The Father grants salvation out of mercy, not as wages to pay for the work of Jesus! Jesus' suffering and death was out of love for mankind and the Father's will. You are misapplying the righteousness of God into something that God OWES. God grants salvation out of love and mercy, not out of wages paid.

Salvation is UTTERLY a gift.

God the Father grants mercy and salvation to mankind through the work of Jesus Christ out of utter mercy and salvation, not because the Father "owes" the Son. By stating that "the perfect follower of the law" earns salvation means that the salvation is works based.

How utterly ironic, don't you think?

Regards

Once again you've twisted what I've said. "By stating that God awaited a perfect Law follower, {EVEN Jesus Christ}, before redeeming man." I never said that...not even close. It isn't a question of God "owing anyone" it's a question of what God's righteous law requires. Plain and simple. The rest of your post is not even worth addressing because you are only expounding on your faulty premise.
 
Once again you've twisted what I've said. "By stating that God awaited a perfect Law follower, {EVEN Jesus Christ}, before redeeming man." I never said that...not even close. It isn't a question of God "owing anyone" it's a question of what God's righteous law requires.

Sure... You are stating it and don't even realize it. Still...

Stop and think for a minute here. I don't just make blind accusations. I have read your posts carefully. Have you, from MY point of view? Step outside of your box for a second and bear with me here, my friend.

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE STATE THAT GOD'S RIGHTEOUS LAW REQUIRES PERFECTION???? You state you never said that, but indeed, you are, over and over again. Let's follow the logic to its conclusion...

Plain and simple. "Your theology" requires a perfect Law follower before God grants mercy. Over and over, you tell me that "no one can perfectly fulfill the Law", which makes perfection a requirement, does it not? Thus, again, the requirement of Jesus Christ, the "perfect Law follower".

In "your theology", God is waiting for that perfect Law follower - Jesus Christ. Correct??? THEN and ONLY THEN is it POSSIBLE for God to grant mercy, since now, His "righteous requirements" are met. Correct? Justice must be met, and only met by the perfect Law Follower. Apparently, there is some "Law" that binds God, Who must await that righteous Law follower FIRST! Only such perfection is God's justice met.

This very idea changes the center of gravity from GOD granting mercy to MAN earning it by perfection. Yes. Indeed. I have even been told by you that the Father DOES owe Jesus, even AFTER I cite Philippians 2 and the ultimate example of kenosis provided by our Lord.

WORKS SALVATION. If it looks like and smells like "works salvation", even if by any other name, or your continued denials...

According to you, God now owes Jesus... Salvation has become a wage, payment. Something earned. God is OBLIGATED to pay Jesus. And Jesus is in heaven to "collect it". For all the unperfect law followers...

That is NOT what the Scriptures state about the relationship between the Son of God and the Father. Nor about salvation.

Your idea of salvagtion still is SOMEONE having to DO something, obligating God. YOU stated that "God's righteous Law must be satisfied". HOW? By a perfect law follower, correct??? God the Father is not making a decision of mercy or love, but is being REQUIRED, OBLIGATED to grant salvation, by that perfect Law follower. Thus, God awaits the perfect man, and then, God OWES salvation to The Perfect Law Follower...

That is NOT why God grants salvation. Jesus did NOT come so that He could be the perfect Law follower and force God to grant salvation!!!

God grants mercy out of love for His Son. Not out of paying back what His Son did. Can you understand the difference and how such a simple thing can totally turn upside down what Christians have been taught to believe from the beginning?

God saves out of mercy and love, not out of obligation - even to the perfect Law follower.

Regards
 
There is only one baptism--Eph.4:5. Baptism must performed in the way the Bible teaches (burial) and for the reason or purpose for which the Bible teaches (remission of sins, be saved). Thus not every one who has undergone some kind of baptism is "born again".

The Bible does not teach there is "only one way to baptize, burial"...

The Didache, written during the same time that the NT was written, tells us simple facts of history - that in some cases, (like lack of water in the desert...), total submersion was not necessary. At any rate, the ritual (amount of water and such) is symbolic. The "work" being done is entirely invisible.

Regards
 
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